Any full time traders?

MikeDirnt78

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Assume that you are a profitable trader (jus go with it) in Singapore and that you have a stable "income".

This income is not subjected to tax or CPF.

i suggest you check with IRAS about this thing. you wouldnt want to end up getting into trouble with the authority after many years of trading but not paying taxes.

Gains from sale of property, shares & financial instruments

When is it taxable

To determine whether an individual is trading, factors such as the frequency and volume of transactions, the interval between the purchase and sale, and the manner of financing the purchase of shares, will be taken into consideration.
 

MikeDirnt78

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iras does not many any distinction between full and part time trading.

IMO if lets say you are trading at least 3 times a day and generating a monthly income of much more than the average income of a singaporean based on a per annum basis, then logically that trading income should be taxable.

just my 2 cents.
 

3dfxplayer

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iras does not many any distinction between full and part time trading.

IMO if lets say you are trading at least 3 times a day and generating a monthly income of much more than the average income of a singaporean based on a per annum basis, then logically that trading income should be taxable.

just my 2 cents.

And how did you determine that 3 times per day is what IRAS deems as "taxable income"? How is it even possible to verify that?

Trading income will never be taxable in Singapore, because there is no capital gains tax here. IRAS doesn't even allow individuals to claim tax credits on trading losses, that alone says a lot. :s13:
 

MikeDirnt78

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And how did you determine that 3 times per day is what IRAS deems as "taxable income"? How is it even possible to verify that?

Trading income will never be taxable in Singapore, because there is no capital gains tax here. IRAS doesn't even allow individuals to claim tax credits on trading losses, that alone says a lot. :s13:

i urge you to read the link that i provided.

Generally, profits or losses derived from the buying and selling of shares or other financial instruments on your own account are viewed as personal investments.

there is a Generally word in there. in most cases, yes you dont need to pay tax.

the definition i gave above is just my own hypothetical definition. thats why for better clarity, i suggest you check with the authority.

i am not trying to scare you. i am just giving you an alert. but if you choose to ignore then by all means. i am not the one that is worrying here. ;)
 

3dfxplayer

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i urge you to read the link that i provided.



there is a Generally word in there. in most cases, yes you dont need to pay tax.

the definition i gave above is just my own hypothetical definition. thats why for better clarity, i suggest you check with the authority.

i am not trying to scare you. i am just giving you an alert. but if you choose to ignore then by all means. i am not the one that is worrying here. ;)

I'm not worried either, I can give you my IC number and you can go and report me to IRAS if you think I should pay taxes just because I make more money from trading than what the avg singaporean make from their day jobs. :D

Regardless of what IRAS says on its website (which is deliberately hazy if you noticed), income from trading will never be taxable as long as there is no capital gains tax, because its so easy to say that one is the other, the resources that IRAS would need to commit to determine if somebody was trading or investing would far outweigh whatever returns they'd get from this very small group of people in Singapore. Its probably an impossible task if you ask me.

I know not of a single country that taxes its people for trading yet it does not have capital gains tax. Its just not feasible.
 

MikeDirnt78

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I'm not worried either, I can give you my IC number and you can go and report me to IRAS if you think I should pay taxes just because I make more money from trading than what the avg singaporean make from their day jobs. :D

i dont give a hoot about you. but i am contributing to someone who cares more than you.

i think you still fail to understand the difference between capital gain and income generated from trading.

iras should remove the following line if it is clear cut that there is no tax altogether.

If you are unsure whether your gains from sale of property, shares or financial instruments are taxable, you may send us your query by email, fax or post.

ignorance can be bliss!
 
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3dfxplayer

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i dont give a hoot about you. but i am contributing to someone who cares more than you.

i think you still fail to understand the difference between capital gain and income generated from trading.

LoL. Of course capital gains is different from income generated from trading, the problem lies with the difficulty in differentiating the 2. This is why income from trading is typically classified as short term capital gains and both are taxed at the usual income tax rate in the US, where there is capital gains tax. Simply put, if you have capital gains tax, there is no need to differentiate the 2 because both are subject to the same taxes, its not possible to differentiate the 2 anyway, its a fool's errand.

Trading isn't any other job, its more like a business, you CAN have a bad year and lose money so the govt has to give out tax credits if it wants to recognise this as a "job". Again this comes back to the problem of capital gains tax, individuals can claim tax loss credits from trading/investment losses in countries with capital gains tax, we have no such tax so there is no way IRAS is going to give you tax refunds for trading losses.

It'd be insane to tax someone for his trading gains and yet fails to recognise his losses, and this is exactly what will happen if IRAS starts taxing trading income.

iras should remove the following line if it is clear cut that there is no tax altogether.

Why do you keep quoting that website? Have you actually called up or emailed IRAS to ask about this? I did, and the response I got was no need to pay tax and they don't give out tax credits for trading losses.

I think they are probably scared that hundreds of thousands of speculators will start claiming tax credits from them for their losses in blumont or s chips lar. :s13:
 
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zawoo86

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Yes I have look through the iras website and they are purposely vague on that matter. However my main issues is not whether to apply myself with the iras as "self-employed". I don't think I will ever do that.

My main issue is still trying to get a mortgage loan without an actual income. I have enough cash to do collateral deposit if such type of loan exists. Worst case, I will get a job again to get an approval.

However I will not declare myself to the IRAS.

Thanks guys for the detailed replies. If anyone have specific details on such bank loans, do let me know :)
 

alexchia01

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Yes I have look through the iras website and they are purposely vague on that matter. However my main issues is not whether to apply myself with the iras as "self-employed". I don't think I will ever do that.

My main issue is still trying to get a mortgage loan without an actual income. I have enough cash to do collateral deposit if such type of loan exists. Worst case, I will get a job again to get an approval.

However I will not declare myself to the IRAS.

Thanks guys for the detailed replies. If anyone have specific details on such bank loans, do let me know :)

I think when apply for loan, the bank will need you to provide either your pay slips if you are currently employed, or your CPF contributions if you are not employed.

So, if you are not holding a job, as long as you contribute regularly to your CPF, you should get the loan.

IRAS is totally another matter. I don't advise you to break the law, but IRAS website didn't give a clear explanation on trading income, so unless they put it into crystal clear black and white, you don't need to report your trading income.
 
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zawoo86

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I think when apply for loan, the bank will need you to provide either your pay slips if you are currently employed, or your CPF contributions if you are not employed.

So, if you are not holding a job, as long as you contribute regularly to your CPF, you should get the loan.

IRAS is totally another matter. I don't advise you to break the law, but IRAS website didn't give a clear explanation on trading income, so unless they put it into crystal clear black and white, you don't need to report your trading income.

Worry not, I am in no way and will break the law :o
Which is why Im here to grasps a stronger understanding to unsure that I do not break any law. =:p
 

MikeDirnt78

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Why do you keep quoting that website? Have you actually called up or emailed IRAS to ask about this? I did, and the response I got was no need to pay tax and they don't give out tax credits for trading losses.

1) if i had asked before, from the beginning i would give a direct explanation as to what IRAS has told me. instead of relying information from IRAS website.

2) its good for your case that you dont need to pay tax. but is your situation, frequency of trades, volume, etc the same as others? does it apply to everyone?

3) my intention is very clear. one should get a written explanation to confirm with IRAS themselves. at least one has a proof to cover his a$$ in the future. instead of relying of what others have said.

4) to make things more complicated, someone posted before about this tax thing. he was told that the trading income is taxable for his case.

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/54264014-post14.html
 

3dfxplayer

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1) if i had asked before, from the beginning i would give a direct explanation as to what IRAS has told me. instead of relying information from IRAS website.

And the information on IRAS' website is vague and useless so it serves no purpose, they even tell you to contact them. :s13:

2) its good for your case that you dont need to pay tax. but is your situation, frequency of trades, volume, etc the same as others? does it apply to everyone?

Maybe not but it can be "made to apply to everyone". IRAS has no way of knowing how frequently you trade or what size you use, they are 100% reliant on what you tell them. Jesus did I have to make it this clear? :s13:


3) my intention is very clear. one should get a written explanation to confirm with IRAS themselves. at least one has a proof to cover his a$$ in the future. instead of relying of what others have said.

IRAS is not going to reject money from you if you die die want to give it to them. If you call up the taxman and tell them that this is your only "job" and you make 200k per year they will certainly send you a tax form. But if you use your brain a little and realise that IRAS is never going to bother with you, and that they wouldn't have a good explanation for taxing you and not giving you tax credits for trading losses, you will know better than to tell them the "truth".


4) to make things more complicated, someone posted before about this tax thing. he was told that the trading income is taxable for his case.

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/54264014-post14.html


Honestly I don't trust this guy. First of all I don't know of any retail forex guys that can consistently make money over the long run, forex is a killing field and its a massively rigged game for retail. Secondly 20-25 orders monthly is not an awful lot of trades, many retirees who punt on penny stocks on sgx put in far more than trades than that. When I first started, I traded on sgx and I did it with a broker who offered preferential rates for people who can hit a certain amount of volume each month, people in that group were trading far more frequently than 20-25 orders per month and none of them paid taxes, of course some of them were losing money so they didn't last very long but the ones that were net profitable weren't paying taxes.

End of the day, its you who decides if you want to pay taxes because IRAS doesn't have a clear yardstick for this and they have no way of knowing the details of your trades, lots of people would fall into this grey area of "possibly taxable, but maybe not" category. Its just not possible to institute a fair taxation program for this group of people without a capital gains tax.

Anyway this has gone way off-topic, I don't think TS is interested in paying taxes just to secure a loan from a bank, that'd be really dumb. :s22:
 

3dfxplayer

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IRAS is totally another matter. I don't advise you to break the law, but IRAS website didn't give a clear explanation on trading income, so unless they put it into crystal clear black and white, you don't need to report your trading income.

Right on!!!!
 

kebinu

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Nah, why do we want to declare "trading income" to get taxed?

There are other ways to get a loan legally. If you don't have a full time job, you can do something to make yourself employed. Is it that difficult? :D
 
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