CPF Account Value Thread 2024

BBCWatcher

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What's stopping you from taking the 200/month and putting it into an FD or MMF?
Nothing except elder sanity, competence, and of course extra work for yourself. The first two at least are certainly not givens.

There’s also the fact that you’re trying to self-insure a greater portion of longevity risk if you attempt that approach, and self-insuring is more expensive whether done partially or fully. Said another way, you’ll probably have to lock in a lower real spending level than what the Escalating Plan provides because closing the gap in the out years is more expensive for you to do on your own than it is for the risk pool.
 

JuniorLion

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Nothing except elder sanity, competence, and of course extra work for yourself. The first two at least are certainly not givens.

There’s also the fact that you’re trying to self-insure a greater portion of longevity risk if you attempt that approach, and self-insuring is more expensive whether done partially or fully. Said another way, you’ll probably have to lock in a lower real spending level than what the Escalating Plan provides because closing the gap in the out years is more expensive for you to do on your own than it is for the risk pool.
If you live beyond 90, I think the escalating plan starts to shine.
 

BBCWatcher

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If you live beyond 90, I think the escalating plan starts to shine.
Sure, OK. But unless you have special, well-founded insight by no later than age 69.9 into whether you’re definitely expiring before age 90, you’ll have to insure against the possibility of living to 90 or well beyond.

Here’s where I mention that if you think the number of dollars is like a score, and the higher the score the better, then you’ve lost the plot. Dollars are only useful for what they can buy, now or later, and what they can buy varies. “Eyes on the prize,” and the prize isn’t necessarily (or even very often) trying to hit some number on a tote board.
 

hwmook

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There is no magic to the Escalating Plan.

Picture this.

Standard Plan gives 1000/month for life.
Escalating Plan gives 800/month for year 1, 816/month for year 2, 832.32/month for year 3, ...

It will take 12 years to hit 1000/month.

If you start your payout at 70, you will only reach 1014/month at 82.

Sure, that sounds good if you are sure you will leave to 120.

For reference, median lifespan for Singaporeans is between 82-86.

You should use Singapore life expectancy at 65 and not at birth. Male is 19 years at 65 so 84 and female is 22.2 so 87.2. So if you did not die of accident or cancer at young age then you will live to around 84 for a Singaporean male. I also did the maths for a escalating plan vs standard, the total amount you receive from both plan will be equal around 88 years old if payout start at 65. I don't think there are a big difference to lose sleep over, just choose one and stick to it.
 

kickass22

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All this discussion seems to suggest that people rely solely on CPF for their finances. However:

1. CPF is likely not the only source of funds for most people.

2. Studies on retirement spending indicate that, for most (though not all), expenses tend to decrease as they age.

3. Many individuals are competent enough to gradually shift from risky investments to low-risk options like SSBs, bonds, or fixed deposits as they grow older.

4. With a fixed income from CPF Life, combined with returns from other low-risk instruments that are simple to manage, most people should be able to meet their financial needs as they age.

@BBCWatcher If someone has Dementia, they need a caretaker not a escalating plan.
 

JuniorLion

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Sure, OK. But unless you have special, well-founded insight by no later than age 69.9 into whether you’re definitely expiring before age 90, you’ll have to insure against the possibility of living to 90 or well beyond.

Here’s where I mention that if you think the number of dollars is like a score, and the higher the score the better, then you’ve lost the plot. Dollars are only useful for what they can buy, now or later, and what they can buy varies. “Eyes on the prize,” and the prize isn’t necessarily (or even very often) trying to hit some number on a tote board.

Maybe there should be a plan that starts with -50% and increase by 5% per year, and starts payout at 75.
 

laokorkor

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Maybe there should be a plan that starts with -50% and increase by 5% per year, and starts payout at 75.

I'm very much for a policy to optionally start payout at 75.

Suppose expected longevity is 85, if payout starts at 65, CPF LIFE pays for 20 years.

But if payout starts at 75, CPF LIFE pays for 10 years, also interests accumulate for 10 more years. That might mean that payouts will more than double, much increasing the quality of life for those who choose to start payout at 75! LOL!
 

laokorkor

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Third, the actuaries have separated the pools by gender. They didn't have to do that, and most comparable systems don't. In most systems men slightly subsidize women in longevity insurance risk terms. If you happen to be male CPF LIFE is an even better deal for you compared to those other systems.
Most insurance policies take into account of gender. In addition, the underwriter takes into account of BMI, smoker/non-smoker, motorcycling, factory production worker, etc. At least, the term and accident policies I bought take these into account. It's a fair thing to do for both the insurer and insured. LOL!
 

JuniorLion

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I'm very much for a policy to optionally start payout at 75.

Suppose expected longevity is 85, if payout starts at 65, CPF LIFE pays for 20 years.

But if payout starts at 75, CPF LIFE pays for 10 years, also interests accumulate for 10 more years. That might mean that payouts will more than double, much increasing the quality of life for those who choose to start payout at 75! LOL!

This is good idea if the retirement age is 75.

Right now, even if I am healthy at 70 and I want to work, I would find it difficult to find employment that will not drastically reduce my pay.
 

BBCWatcher

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You should use Singapore life expectancy at 65 and not at birth.
Ideally from age 70, the default CPF LIFE payout starting age. If you’re trying to extract as much value out of CPF LIFE, that’s how to do it. Of course if you need the money before age 70 to survive then that’s another matter.
Male is 19 years at 65 so 84 and female is 22.2 so 87.2.
That’s undercalled because it’s based on data from Singaporeans who’ve already died. We know with high confidence Singaporeans alive today will live longer, on average. (They smoke less, for example.) How much longer, we don’t know exactly, although actuaries can make very reasonable estimates. Actuaries aren’t predicting 19/22.2. They’re much smarter than that, and you should be too.

Moreover, that’s not the risk for you. Your risk is being ”unlucky”: living to 102, as one example. If you’re in decent or better health you have to prepare for the “worst.” At least if you’re sensible. If you look at the life tables from age 70, then look at the age when 1% of those individuals who made it to 70 are still alive, that’s a start. But that age would still mean you run a >1% risk of excess longevity. Many people would consider that ~2% level of risk undesirable.

Trust me: longevity risk mitigation is EXPENSIVE without risk pooling.
All this discussion seems to suggest that people rely solely on CPF for their finances.
No, you hope not. But (high quality) longevity insurance is “s**t hit the fan” defense. Y’all seem to be assuming nobody is going to steal and/or blow your elder self’s life savings. Y’all are wrong. It could happen. It does happen. This is last line of financial defense stuff. (Assuming also you don’t want to ever risk being a financial burden on children, grandchildren, nieces, grandnieces, nephews, or grandnephews. If you even have any.)

This is cheap insurance against this class of risks. Do it. Don’t fool around. It’s not complicated.
1. CPF is likely not the only source of funds for most people.
For too many it will be. On this occasion (and many others) the government is very correct.
2. Studies on retirement spending indicate that, for most (though not all), expenses tend to decrease as they age.
You can make a reasonable assumption about future real spending needs for a basic, dignified lifestyle. But it won’t be zero. And this assumption really won’t matter much because CPF LIFE income alone can never support a lavish lifestyle. Participation is capped at the ERS. And it’s never like “cooties” (if that slang makes sense). It’s always at least reasonable. There’s no way you can approach a CPF LIFE spending level/lifestyle with personal savings and a reasonable Safe Withdrawal Rate (SWR).
3. Many individuals are competent enough to gradually shift from risky investments to low-risk options like SSBs, bonds, or fixed deposits as they grow older.
But you must plan for the possibility your future self won’t be. It’s unrealistic to forecast you’ll always be sane and competent. Dementia is obviously possible.
If someone has Dementia, they need a caretaker not a escalating plan.
Both would be really helpful, even essential. Otherwise the caretaker shifts to part time then no time. Nobody is going to take care of you on fixed nominal income as the years march on.
Maybe there should be a plan that starts with -50% and increase by 5% per year, and starts payout at 75.
That’d be nice, but we do the best we can with the choices available. A CPI-E linked life annuity would be even better. Or CPI+1%.
I'm very much for a policy to optionally start payout at 75.
You can kind of/sort of simulate that option if you start payouts at age 70 (the default) and immediately redeposit the first 60 payments in your RA. Provided you have room below the ERS.
Suppose expected longevity is 85…
Expected longevity is you’ll beat the odds, or very nearly so at least. That’s what everyone (except those in actual poor health) has to plan for if they have a reasonable plan.
…if payout starts at 65, CPF LIFE pays for 20 years.
But if payout starts at 75, CPF LIFE pays for 10 years, also interests accumulate for 10 more years. That might mean that payouts will more than double, much increasing the quality of life for those who choose to start payout at 75! LOL!
Sure, and some systems/countries provide that option. This one doesn’t, although you can simulate it in many cases.
Most insurance policies take into account of gender.
Not most countries’ national/public longevity insurance programs. Not most traditional group corporate pensions either. (It’d be illegal in many countries if they did.) CPF LIFE is fairly peculiar in that respect. Great for men, less great (though still great) for women. CPF LIFE is peculiar in a few ways, and that’s one of them.
 

BBCWatcher

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This is good idea if the retirement age is 75.
No, it’d be a good option to have no matter when you retire. But we don’t have that option, so don’t worry about it.

I assume the government doesn’t want to pay ”too much” well above market interest, and that’s the primary reason why payouts must start no later than age 70. In the not too distant past some CPF members just kept their entire RA balance parked, and nominees then continued to keep those dollars parked, earning 4% interest plus bonus interest. That was fun while it lasted for those who could enjoy it.

There’s an odd little tax rule in the U.S. that encourages some people to buy private life annuities called “QLACs” that start payouts at age 85. Provided you buy them early enough they’re pretty affordable, and those who can benefit save some tax. The government’s apparent idea is that they want to encourage shifting some tax deferred retirement savings into longevity insurance in the very advanced years probably in part because it cuts down on social welfare spending (such as government support for nursing home care). It’s a pretty good idea.
 

royalmix

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"Scholars at CPFB" are "known" to create alot of "backdoors or loopholes or hacks" so they or those with "scholarly brains" can benefit! It is discrimination of policies, benefiting only a certain category of CPF members. Such discrimination should be "wiped out"!

These "loopholes" are being closed one by one in the past, the most impactful is SA Closure!:ROFLMAO:

Some "loopholes" are closed "without mention", for you to discover and news to spread!

So much "hints" as "gifts" to you to celebrate SG60 next week!:LOL:
When CPF Life Scheme was started, the "Scholars at CPFB" also created alot of "backdoors or loopholes or hacks" so they or those with "scholarly brains can benefit.

But they also created "trapdoors" using language and information (both "hidden" and "overload"), playing with your greed and fear!

Some "backdoors or loopholes or hacks" had been closed, some information ("hidden") were "forced" to be disclosed, some information ("overload") were removed.

CPF Life Scheme need to be sustainable, so need members to delay payout start date and choose Escalating or Standard Plans. Both Escalating and Standard Plans will "benefit all Singaporeans", as more interests will be earned, especially if you choose Escalating Plan.

So much "hints" for you to welcome SG60 tomorrow!
 
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BBCWatcher

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If you look at the life tables from age 70, then look at the age when 1% of those individuals who made it to 70 are still alive, that’s a start. But that age would still mean you run a >1% risk of excess longevity. Many people would consider that ~2% level of risk undesirable.
So let’s look at that 1% longevity risk standard from age 70 using the 2023 preliminary life tables, again recognizing that Singaporeans alive now at age 70 will do better than the already dead Singaporeans that are reflected in the life tables.

For men the starting point at age 70 is 83,635. So we want to know at what age fewer than 836 (1%) of them will still be alive. And the answer is…we don’t know! At age 100 there were 1,215 still alive (past Singaporeans) — ~1.2% of Singaporeans born in 1923 (approximately) and ~1.5% of those who made it to 70. Roughly speaking, for your cohort (you're younger if you're reading this), we can expect about 2% of men who make it to 70 to be alive at 100. Obviously for women the survival percentage will be even higher.

Personally I use 105 as a terminal age for retirement planning purposes. Hopefully now you can see why. I want that longevity risk to be below 1%. Age 100 is too low (too dangerous, too much longevity risk), and 105 is a nice round number. I’ll evaluate my health at age 69.9 of course.
 
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royalmix

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Life is a "stage", it is an art not just a science!

Your health alone does not "decide" your "life"!

You fly, the plane crash, like the recent Korean Air Crash! You go walking or hiking, you can fall to death too (like a recent case of a mult-millionaire). U drive or be driven, crash and accidents can also occur like the recent so many deaths! You sleep, can also just say bye bye (like one CEO strong and healthy). Pandemics can also kill!

I went for vessel cruise, the weather play tricks, I got seriously injured, almost on the line of death too!

That is Life! Unpredictable! Just be Prepared and CPFB helps you so long you join CPF Life Scheme or have your own Scheme!

I am dropping "hints' again! Catch it or miss it! :ROFLMAO:
 
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BBCWatcher

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Your fly, the plane crash, like the recent Korean Air Crash!
I don't even know where to begin, but I'll pick one part....

Korean Air has not had any fatal plane crashes recently. The last one was in 1999 when a Korean Air cargo flight crashed, killing all people aboard (4 crew members). Jeju Air has had a recent fatal crash.
 

laokorkor

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So let’s look at that 1% longevity risk standard from age 70 using the 2023 preliminary life tables, again recognizing that Singaporeans alive now at age 70 will do better than the already dead Singaporeans that are reflected in the life tables.

For men the starting point at age 70 is 83,635. So we want to know at what age fewer than 836 (1%) of them will still be alive. And the answer is…we don’t know! At age 100 there were 1,215 still alive (past Singaporeans) — ~1.2% of Singaporeans born in 1923 (approximately) and ~1.5% of those who made it to 70. Roughly speaking, for your cohort (you're younger if you're reading this), we can expect about 2% of men who make it to 70 to be alive at 100. Obviously for women the survival percentage will be even higher.

Personally I use 105 as a terminal age for retirement planning purposes. Hopefully now you can see why. I want that longevity risk to be below 1%. Age 100 is too low (too dangerous, too much longevity risk), and 105 is a nice round number. I’ll evaluate my health at age 69.9 of course.

https://www.censtatd.gov.hk/en/data/stat_report/product/B1120016/att/B1120016092023XXXXB01.pdf

If you're interested, you can take a look at the Hong Kong Life Table.

HK Census department projects the table all the way till 2046. Since their economy and human stock are similar to Singapore's, I bet it's relevant. They project something like a longevity of 89 yo for male in 2046. LOL!
 

BBCWatcher

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HK Census department projects the table all the way till 2046. Since their economy and human stock are similar to Singapore's, I bet it's relevant. They project something like a longevity of 89 yo for male in 2046. LOL!
Median (past cohort) life expectancy is irrelevant for retirement financial planning purposes. I don't know why anyone is even mentioning it.

Nobody sensible would ever tolerate a highway or rail bridge expected to fail 50% of the time during your lifetime. The only sensible goal is to design a bridge based on a less than X% failure rate where X is some number like 1. Certainly not any more than 5 — and a 1 in 20 failure rate is really risky!

Yes, I know retirement financial math can be difficult. But there's no point in hiding from reality. Make sensible forecasts and do the best you can. (Hint: CPF LIFE can help a lot.)
 

royalmix

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I have read, watched or heard recommendations from many "licensed" financial consultants, none have ever recommended Escalating Plan, based on my recall!

I am dropping "hints" again!

Let me know if you have read any? (Singapore CPF Life Only!)
 
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laokorkor

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I have read, watched or heard recommendations from many "licensed" financial consultants, none have ever recommended Escalating Plan, based on my recall!

I am dropping "hints" again!

Let me know if you have read any?

Hi, US social security payouts are indexed to CPI. This is a huge trillion dollar type of annuity system.
 

hwmook

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When CPF Life Scheme was started, the "Scholars at CPFB" also created alot of "backdoors or loopholes or hacks" so they or those with "scholarly brains can benefit.

But they also created "trapdoors" using language and information (both "hidden" and "overload"), playing with your greed and fear!

Some "backdoors or loopholes or hacks" had been closed, some information ("hidden") were "forced" to be disclosed, some information ("overload") were removed.

CPF Life Scheme need to be sustainable, so need members to delay payout start date and choose Escalating or Standard Plans. Both Escalating and Standard Plans will "benefit all Singaporeans", as more interests will be earned, especially if you choose Escalating Plan.

So much "hints" for you to welcome SG60 tomorrow!

CPF life is definitely sustainable because they can adjust payout as they like so there is practically zero risk of it collapsing. It's also not run like a Ponzi scheme where you need the young people to support the elderly. The government is trying to make sure they don't have to give out subsidies and make the government budget more sustainable.
 
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