CPF after 55

dork32

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I'm more toward standard plan for my case. Nvm can switch plan if decision change. (before age of 80)
it is important to understand the mechanisms before talking about switching

these numbers does not appear by magic. the reason for the high bequest for basic is because of the interest that is accumulated. standard does not earn interest for you so the bequest is no good.

if you are allowed to switch from standard to basic at 80, switching does not make any difference.

coz at 80 you would have depleted your principal. if there is no principal, the basic mechanism of maintaining the bequest, which is interest, is gone.

however if you are on basic, at 80, you still have a large amount in your ra. you can still switch to standard.

which gives me an idea that has never been mentioned on money mind.

i stay with basic till i am 80, so i earn the interest gao gao. i then switch to standard at 80. afterall, there is not so much interest to be earn after 80.

anyone knows how to evaluate the irr of this? maybe zoneguard and tangent is good enuf to do this.
 

Value.Matrix

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so sorry. i may have seen the wrong guy. maybe the free lunch guy would like to own up. this is a good statement. it just means that whatever the advantages a scheme has, will come with a cost. it is up to the individual to evaluate the cost vs benefit.
I talked about the free lunch. And said there is no free lunch.
 

Andrew833

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it is important to understand the mechanisms before talking about switching

these numbers does not appear by magic. the reason for the high bequest for basic is because of the interest that is accumulated. standard does not earn interest for you so the bequest is no good.

if you are allowed to switch from standard to basic at 80, switching does not make any difference.

coz at 80 you would have depleted your principal. if there is no principal, the basic mechanism of maintaining the bequest, which is interest, is gone.

however if you are on basic, at 80, you still have a large amount in your ra. you can still switch to standard.

which gives me an idea that has never been mentioned on money mind.

i stay with basic till i am 80, so i earn the interest gao gao. i then switch to standard at 80. afterall, there is not so much interest to be earn after 80.

anyone knows how to evaluate the irr of this? maybe zoneguard and tangent is good enuf to do this.
I understand your point. I have to plan for myself and my wife, that's all. She do not have much cpf monies, so just take care ourselves will do.
 

sohguanh

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it is important to understand the mechanisms before talking about switching

these numbers does not appear by magic. the reason for the high bequest for basic is because of the interest that is accumulated. standard does not earn interest for you so the bequest is no good.

if you are allowed to switch from standard to basic at 80, switching does not make any difference.

coz at 80 you would have depleted your principal. if there is no principal, the basic mechanism of maintaining the bequest, which is interest, is gone.

however if you are on basic, at 80, you still have a large amount in your ra. you can still switch to standard.

which gives me an idea that has never been mentioned on money mind.

i stay with basic till i am 80, so i earn the interest gao gao. i then switch to standard at 80. afterall, there is not so much interest to be earn after 80.

anyone knows how to evaluate the irr of this? maybe zoneguard and tangent is good enuf to do this.

Not cursing or anything but can I check for reader family and relatives elderlies their average lifespan is all over age 80? Not everyone family elders live long life I know for male for my known side pass away around 70-80. Those over 80s are usually women.
 

Value.Matrix

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Let's assume these figures are still correct. OK, now let's apply some straightforward "time value of money" logic....

In order for the CPF LIFE Basic Plan to be an acceptable choice for comparison you must be willing to live for the rest of your life on $1,345/month fixed nominal. (There's actually a "burble" when the amount goes down a bit, but let's assume it doesn't for simplicity.) So let's pick the CPF LIFE Standard Plan but then take all dollars above the Basic Plan's $1,345/month payout and plow them straight back every month into your CPF Retirement Account. (At FRS level you're allowed to do that for the rest of your life. The ERS isn't constraining.) I'll exclude whole month interest discrepancies and bonus interest oddities for these purposes and assume straight/naive 4.0% p.a. interest.

OK, so here's what we get as the approximate figures, and I'll carry this calculation into another couple age brackets. (I'm not sure why they stopped at 90 since gobs of Singaporeans live past 90.)

Table 1A: Full Retirement Sum + Standard Plan + Commence payment at age 65 + monthly plowback of all dollars above the Basic Plan level

Age Member passes onBequest Left Behind
70$179,894
75$107,301
80$39,699
85$46,578
90$65,141
95$87,726
100$115,204

Yes, that's correct! The "crossover" point for the bequest is between ages 85 and 90. And this approach (Standard Plan, plowback all dollars above the Basic Plan payout level) guarantees a bequest -- and an escalating bequest starting no later than age 80.

Is this comparison fair? Absolutely it's fair! You're holding monthly income constant at $1,345/month. If you're not willing to do that then the Basic Plan is inoperable -- you have to dismiss it out of hand. So what do you do with the extra $128/month? That's up to you, but obviously you could save it every month straight back into your CPF Retirement Account where it earns 4.0% interest. The CPF Board then recomputes your CPF LIFE payouts every July, and that $128/month actually grows every July. But you keep plowing the excess all back, every penny above $1,345/month. And this is the result you get, approximately anyway.

Now, if you're an "ERS pegger," i.e. you're going to jam as many dollars as you possibly can into your CPF Retirement Account every time the ERS is raised, from age 55 for the rest of your life, then you cannot plow back any further dollars into your CPF Retirement Account. That's a different scenario, and the interest rate/yield assumption (4.0% in this example) would be different. Also, age 65 payout start modeling is weird. That's the non-default, and everyone knows (or should know) by now that if you're going to play games like these you'd never start payouts any earlier than age 70. At the very least you'd model age 70 plus one other payout starting age.

Disclaimer: To reiterate, these figures are approximate. They're probably overstated a little since getting the calculation exactly correct is quite difficult. Simple/naive 4.0% interest isn't actually how it works. But the principles are sound.
Your plan dies flat simply because

All contribution to CPF RA will be used to buy the annuity CPF Life starting from 2022.

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/member/infoh...ouncements/cpf-amendment-bill-highlights-2021
 

BBCWatcher

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Dork32, you seem to be the only one fixated on (member-nominee) IRRs. The illustration I provided is much simpler to understand. You simply equalize the monthly payout amount between payout plans to the Basic Plan's lower monthly payout, then you compare bequests. What happens is:

1. From payout start to somewhere between 85 and 90 (87ish), the Basic Plan offers a higher but decreasing bequest, eventually decreasing to zero.

2. From that 87ish crossover age onward, the Standard Plan with plowback has a higher bequest. The Standard Plan/Plowback bequest reaches its minimum before age 80 and escalates thereafter.

Plotted on a chart the Basic Plan's bequest is basically a line intercepting the X axis at zero a little past age 90. Standard Plan/Plowback is a roughly U shaped curve that dives under the Basic Plan at payout start, reaches its minimum somewhere in the late 70s, crosses back up above the Basic Plan line around age 87, then keeps going up.

I'm sorry if this illustration upsets you for whatever reason(s), but it's a perfectly reasonable, rough illustration.
 

BBCWatcher

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Your plan dies flat simply because
All contribution to CPF RA will be used to buy the annuity CPF Life starting from 2022.
I was wondering if/when someone would raise this objection. I already alluded to why it's not a valid objection, but I'll elaborate. The CPF Board recomputes your CPF LIFE payouts every July with a CPF LIFE Standard Plan/Plowback approach. The annuity recomputation includes interest effects. (Remember: Interest is always paid, always factored into the life annuity calculation.) The $128/month gap increases every July. Thus the plowbacks pick up those interest effects and plow them right back, every month, loop/repeat. Yes, as I wrote the naive/simple 4.0% p.a. AMP-like interest calculation isn't quite correct. It doesn't include bonus interest effects, annualized annuity recomputation effects, and whole month interest computation effects. The estimates I provide in the table are probably a little on the high side, with the bonus interest effects not quite overcoming the other effects. But as a reasonable approximation it's correct.
 

dork32

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Above is the essence. If the monthly payout is not so big of a difference between standard and basic and the bequest is so much difference between standard and basic from age 80 onwards I think I would choose basic.

But why everyone is defaulted to Standard from govt point of view I know why. The pool of monies need to be huge in order to feed those who live longer lives than others. With Standard, the member pass away at 85 all monies are in the pool no more in the bequest to the deceased family.

Now what happen if Basic is the default instead of Standard? It will be harder for govt to operate and manage the pool of monies is it ? Since lesser monies are in the pool and need to release monies in the form of bequest to Basic deceased member families for those die at age 85 onwards?
please be careful. what i did in the post is very typical of bbc. i purposely blow up the advantage of Basic, which is you die at 80.

if you die at 95, then standard and escalating has a very big advantage over basic. mahatir is 96 now, still cannot die
 

sohguanh

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please be careful. what i did in the post is very typical of bbc. i purposely blow up the advantage of Basic, which is you die at 80.

if you die at 95, then standard and escalating has a very big advantage over basic. mahatir is 96 now, still cannot die

If you have watched HK,Taiwan,China etc drama serials the bad guys die at the very last episode which translate to bad guys live long life in reality since shows mirror reality. So unless I transform into a bad guy else I will die much earlier maybe between age 70-80.

Hokkien got a saying "Bad people hard to die". Iron Maiden sings Only the good die young, all the evil seems to live forever. So it is almost universally observed baddies die very late.
 

dork32

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I was wondering if/when someone would raise this objection. I already alluded to why it's not a valid objection, but I'll elaborate. The CPF Board recomputes your CPF LIFE payouts every July with a CPF LIFE Standard Plan/Plowback approach. The annuity recomputation includes interest effects. (Remember: Interest is always paid, always factored into the life annuity calculation.) The $128/month gap increases every July. Thus the plowbacks pick up those interest effects and plow them right back, every month, loop/repeat. Yes, as I wrote the naive/simple 4.0% p.a. AMP-like interest calculation isn't quite correct. It doesn't include bonus interest effects, annualized annuity recomputation effects, and whole month interest computation effects. The estimates I provide in the table are probably a little on the high side, with the bonus interest effects not quite overcoming the other effects. But as a reasonable approximation it's correct.
Dork32, you seem to be the only one fixated on (member-nominee) IRRs. The illustration I provided is much simpler to understand. You simply equalize the monthly payout amount between payout plans to the Basic Plan's lower monthly payout, then you compare bequests. What happens is:

1. From payout start to somewhere between 85 and 90 (87ish), the Basic Plan offers a higher but decreasing bequest, eventually decreasing to zero.

2. From that 87ish crossover age onward, the Standard Plan with plowback has a higher bequest. The Standard Plan/Plowback bequest reaches its minimum before age 80 and escalates thereafter.

Plotted on a chart the Basic Plan's bequest is basically a line intercepting the X axis at zero a little past age 90. Standard Plan/Plowback is a roughly U shaped curve that dives under the Basic Plan at payout start, reaches its minimum somewhere in the late 70s, crosses back up above the Basic Plan line around age 87, then keeps going up.

I'm sorry if this illustration upsets you for whatever reason(s), but it's a perfectly reasonable, rough illustration.
wah piang, anyone understand wat is happening here?

yea my irr is so complicated
i will use item's number for 85 years old standard
=RATE(20*12,1473,-260000,0)*12 =3.24%

which one is more easy to compute?
 

dork32

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If you have watched HK,Taiwan,China etc drama serials the bad guys die at the very last episode which translate to bad guys live long life in reality since shows mirror reality. So unless I transform into a bad guy else I will die much earlier maybe between age 70-80.

Hokkien got a saying "Bad people hard to die". Iron Maiden sings Only the good die young, all the evil seems to live forever. So it is almost universally observed baddies die very late.
maybe you are hero. hero even longer life than bad guy. last episode also dont die..

but seriously, if you feel are going to die from 70 to 80, then standard and escalating are terrible plans if you have some people to bequest to.

but then again, most of us tend to be a bit pessimistic on how long we can live. the average death age here in sg is 83.5.
 

dork32

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Yes, as I wrote the naive/simple 4.0% p.a. AMP-like interest calculation isn't quite correct. It doesn't include bonus interest effects, annualized annuity recomputation effects, and whole month interest computation effects. The estimates I provide in the table are probably a little on the high side, with the bonus interest effects not quite overcoming the other effects. But as a reasonable approximation it's correct.
this is wat i mean that you never learn. yywin already came up with the method of dealing with bonus interest. the total interest is 4% + 900 for ah pek and ah ma

you always come up with crazy method that is so complex that even you do not know wat it is, just to defend you undefendable position.
 

Andrew833

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Not cursing or anything but can I check for reader family and relatives elderlies their average lifespan is all over age 80? Not everyone family elders live long life I know for male for my known side pass away around 70-80. Those over 80s are usually women.
Singapore Life Expectancy
Female 2019 85.9, 2020 86.1
Male 2019 81.4, 2020 81.5

I personally know 1 female, last year already 90+
 

sohguanh

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maybe you are hero. hero even longer life than bad guy. last episode also dont die..

but seriously, if you feel are going to die from 70 to 80, then standard and escalating are terrible plans if you have some people to bequest to.

but then again, most of us tend to be a bit pessimistic on how long we can live. the average death age here in sg is 83.5.

You see in most drama serials last episode left one hero but many baddies. So unless you are so good to be that rare solo hero else all heroes gone before getting to last episode.

83.5 is for both men and women? I think women is longer.
 

dork32

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Singapore Life Expectancy
Female 2019 85.9, 2020 86.1
Male 2019 81.4, 2020 81.5

I personally know 1 female, last year already 90+
assuming what you post is correct.

death age tends to be normally distributed. in normal distributions, the mean = media.

it means that the median death age for men is 82. it means half the men will before 82. if you are on standard and you die before 88, you lose. it means that more than half the men will lose.

but then again most of us quite still quite far from the dying age. as we approach the age, maybe a fairy pill would be invented and we all become immoral
 

BBCWatcher

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this is wat i mean that you never learn. yywin already came up with the method of dealing with bonus interest. the total interest is 4% + 900 for ah pek and ah ma
It's much more complicated than that in this case, as I believe you already know. This illustration is taking a portion of one life annuity and plowing it back into annually recomputed layered supplemental life annuities. The bonus interest effects are not straightforward. They really impact the "tail ends" of the runs, and taking the "naive" approach to bonus interest would skew the numbers too aggressively higher for these purposes.

The numbers I've presented are "in the ballpark," and it's a small ballpark.
 

henrylbh

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as much as the result is the same, the actuarial model is not that. The member of CPF LIFE draws premium and interest at the same time, not premium alone. There is no such actuarial model that only draws premium and interest pool later.

you are inventing your own “actuarial” model.

just like paying a mortgage monthly. There is no such as paying interest or principal only. You are paying both at the same time.

I only said what CPF said. How have I invented my own actuarial model? :LOL:

Your CPF LIFE monthly payouts will first be paid from your CPF LIFE premium. When your CPF LIFE premium is depleted, you will continue to receive the monthly payouts from the interest that you and other CPF LIFE members have accumulated, no matter how long you live.

Where did above statement from CPF give a hint or clue that -

The member of CPF LIFE draws premium and interest at the same time, not premium alone?

However, as a member of CPF LIFE, you enjoy the interest every moment you live and get CPF LIFE payout from both the premium and interest.


The above assertions are misinformation and valid for ownself say to ownself.

How life payout is determined is another matter, but you rojak them up to come out with your own way of looking at it and accused me of inventing (y)
 

tangent314

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Singapore Life Expectancy
Female 2019 85.9, 2020 86.1
Male 2019 81.4, 2020 81.5

I personally know 1 female, last year already 90+

This is life expectancy at birth.
More relevant is life expectancy at age 65 (or 70), which is significantly higher.
From the Singapore 2020 Life Tables, life expectancy is age 65 is 19.6 for males, 23.2 for females
 

henrylbh

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Singapore Life Expectancy
Female 2019 85.9, 2020 86.1
Male 2019 81.4, 2020 81.5

I personally know 1 female, last year already 90+
My aunty die last year 3 months before 100.
Her sister after her died earlier at 97.
Her younger sis is still living at 99.
My father died two weeks before turning 91 before all his sis.
Woman power (y)
 
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