CPF Easy Info Thread. :)

dork32

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I don’t think most people should try to maximize yield certain on CPF Retirement Accounts, the single best value by far in Singapore dollar longevity insurance. Just as I don’t think most people should use hammers to drive screws into walls. (Use a screwdriver.) It’s the wrong tool for the job. Longevity insurance gives you more ability to maximize yield with other assets, and that’s a better deal.

By the way, if you’re attempting to maximize yield certain on CPF Retirement Account funds you wouldn’t ever start payouts at age 65. You’d start them as late as possible, which is age 70. I would certainly appreciate if those arguing for this approach at least respected the internal logic of their arguments, such as it is.

i want to maximize. you do not want that is your problem.
correct, i should use a hammer to drive screw. but hammer is the only tool that i have, i will use it to ram the screw in.

kenny and maple already mentioned about amp. everyone (maybe except bbc) agrees that amp gives better return than basic. starting at 65 allows me into the amp scheme more quickly.

have you compared the pro and cons of starting amp early vs going earning more interest in the ra.? for you it could be all pros and no cons or the other way around.
 

dork32

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upon advice by bbc, i will change my numbers

176k in ra at 55 will result in 210k in basic and 53k in pool. 210k earns 4% interest. 53k earns nothing

176k in investment will result in 226k in amp ra. 226k earns 4%

diff in principal is 37k. diff in interest earning amount is 16k

it will take your 16k will take 30years to hit 53k (37+16) at 4%

if you start doing this at 65, you will need till 95 then you can catch up. you may want to forget the idea. however your investment can get a higher return eg 3%, then it may turn the tables over.

amazing isnt it? i made so many mistakes that they cancel out each other. it is still back to age 95.
 
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dork32

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upon advice by bbc, i will change my numbers

176k in ra at 55 will result in 210k in basic and 53k in pool. 210k earns 4% interest. 53k earns nothing

176k in investment will result in 226k in amp ra. 226k earns 4%

diff in principal is 37k. diff in interest earning amount is 16k

it will take your 16k will take 30years to hit 53k (37+16) at 4%

if you start doing this at 65, you will need till then you can catch up. you may want to forget the idea. however your investment can get a higher return eg 3%, then it may turn the tables over.

amazing isnt it? i made so many mistakes that they cancel out each other. it is still back to age 95.

any one notice the other error?

your amp does not last until 95. jofin say it will be finished by 90. in other words the payout is more for amp compared to basic, which mean less of it will remain in the amp acct to earn the 4%, which makes chasing the 37k even more difficult, which makes bbc's suggestion even better.
 

BBCWatcher

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your amp does not last until 95. jofin say it will be finished by 90. in other words the payout is more for amp compared to basic, which mean less of it will remain in the amp acct to earn the 4%, which makes chasing the 37k even more difficult, which makes bbc's suggestion even better.
Another issue is that the (most pessimistic) 20% is 20% of the whole RA at payout start, including the bonus interest earned on the first $60K. You have to account for bonus interest contribution to the total when calculating the 20% premium. In other words, it’s not 20% of the increment above the BRS that goes into the CPF Lifelong Income Fund. It’s less than 20% of the increment.

There’s also a little interest loss associated with withdrawal and AMP redeposit (one month anyway), but maybe we can overlook that in this case.

And if you withdraw down to the BRS at age 55 then die before or even after payout start, your nominees are definitely poorer due to the loss of 4% compounded interest on what would otherwise be a much bigger RA.

This math is just not going to work. If you’re trying to maximize yield certain on your RA, drive it up as high as it’ll go as soon as you’re allowed, then keep doing it every January thereafter, and then start payouts at age 70. That’s the correct recipe...IF you want to do this. (I don’t think you should with these particular dollars, but if.)
 
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henrylbh

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Hi Henry, thanks for this clarification.
Assuming at 176k at 55
Assuming at 263k at 65
Choose basic at 65, 20% of 263k or 52.6k goes into pool.
4% of 52.6k or 2.1k is pay into RA

Question, what will happen to the 52.6k, if one pass away.

I waited cause I thought dork32 would have answered you :s13:

At 55, RA is 176k
At 65, RA should compound to $271,328 (you must have left out the extra interest of $900 per year?)

Up to 20% (or $54,266) of RA will deducted as annuity premium at 65 when you select basic plan.

The annuity premium will continue to earn interest at 4% but the interest goes to the pool … as good as gone :s13:

The annuity premium also earns extra interest of 1% on first 60k and additional extra interest of 1% on first 30k. Hence you will get 1% of $54,266 plus 1% of $30,000 = $842.66 which will be paid into your RA.
 
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BBCWatcher

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Here’s another way to understand what’s going on.

CPF Retirement Accounts earn 4.X% interest. (The exact X depends on the relative contribution of bonus interest.) That’s juicy. The basic rules with attractive interest are to grab as much of it as allowed, as soon as allowed, and to hold onto it as long as allowed.

Under the most pessimistic Basic Plan assumptions there’s 20% of the total RA that’s principal return only, i.e. 0% interest. So with 80% earning 4.X% and 20% earning 0% you end up with 3.X% on the total, to you and your nominees. Is that comparatively attractive? You betcha.

Why defer to age 70? Well, one reason is that if you die anytime before age 70, or even somewhat after, your nominees are wealthier than had you started payouts earlier. The net effective yield is never worse, but there’s a decent chance it’ll be better, for your nominees, with an age 70 start.

Why not AMP? You still can from age 70 if you wish, with annual January top ups to the new ERS. At that point it doesn’t matter too much whether it’s AMP or more Basic Plan, and the default is AMP, so fine.

To reiterate for the umpteenth time, I don’t recommend that most people do this (try to maximize yield certain for these particular dollars). You’re required to get some longevity insurance, and in my view you should maximize the total extended family “lifestyle certain” across all your assets, using these particular dollars (RA) as an important tool to assure that overarching goal. Longevity insurance is terrific stuff, in some measure (more than most people think) and if you leverage it. Oversimplifying only slightly, it means you can give away all or at least more of your assets sooner, to loved ones with longer time horizons and better investments to make than you have, and that’s...well, now we’re talking true dynastic wealth here. Powerful stuff.
 

henrylbh

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first is this, the 20% is not lost. it is just not earning interest.

For the 20% that goes into the pool -

You sure it's not lost at any time?

You sure it's just not earning interest?

You repeated that it (20%) is not lost. You also repeated that it (20%) is not earning interest.

yes it is not earning interest.

let me remind you again. yes it is not lost

by saying "are you sure", you are implicating that the sentence is wrong and your stand is on the other side. and again yes you are wrong

I don't disagree completely that I may be taking the opposite stand.

For 20% not earning interest, I gave the answer (not my answer :s13:) according to CPF Q&A -

Q Where will the extra interest be paid to after I join CPF LIFE?
A If you have chosen the CPF LIFE Basic Plan, we will pay the extra interest earned into your Retirement Account and pay it to you in the year it is earned as part of your monthly CPF LIFE payouts. Your monthly CPF LIFE payouts will not be level throughout as they will reduce gradually when your combined balances fall below $60,000. This is due to less extra interest earned.

For 20% not lost, I am seeking answer (not taking opposite stand) :s13:

Consider this -

80% remained in RA and it is paid together with interest thereon and some extra interest (from annuity premium) over a period till close to age 90 when RA is exhausted.

So how and when is 20% recovered? CPF does assured that at any point of death, member will not get less than his principal amount (176k?) That's not comforting. Within 10 years, the cumulative life payouts would be more than 176k. When I am more free, I will do a calculation to convince myself that 20% is somehow returned to me by x age and not lost if I go by around 90 when bequest is zero. Thumbs up if you can work out the numbers :s13:


there is small amount of 1+1 interest that you will get. this is common whether you are on frs ers or brs. this is assume that you do not deplete your oa during this period. ignoring the extra interest is perfectly fine.

Henry is wrong this time.

In the above, you contradicted yourself 'yes it is not earning interest' however little it may be. That interest can be as much as $900 per year if the annuity premium is 60k or more (like for ERS).

No only that you confused the issue by mentioning depletion of OA affecting interest when it is remotely relevant. You already have enough annuity premium and RA to earn the extra interest with zero OA.

interpret it anyway you want. to me and many others here, it is still not earning interest.


Ha ha, you need many others to support you? I showed you the Q&A and I no need interpret . If you and many still think it (annuity premium) is still not earning interest, I got nothing to say.

combined balance means i do not need my ra to earn this interest. it can be earned via oa sa or ma

Again this does not address my questions. Only when annuity premium and RA are depleted, will combine balance involving OA, SA and MA matter. Even then the interest will remain in the respective accounts where they are and not part of life payout.

It appears you don't fully understand what you quoted - Your monthly CPF LIFE payouts will not be level throughout as they will reduce gradually when your combined balances fall below $60,000. This is due to less extra interest earned.

yes it is not lost. it is not earning interest. this is confirmed.

the 20% is earning interest for the pool. if you feel that the pool is yours, you can join that group of people.

and if you have 88k in your ra. you do not need the 20% to earn the 1+1 for you. so i am right

Where you noted that I feel interest in pool is mine :s22:

You are right if you know the sequence of how interest is due :s13:
 

dork32

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The annuity premium also earns extra interest of 1% on first 60k and additional extra interest of 1% on first 30k. Hence you will get 1% of $54,266 plus 1% of $30,000 = $842.66 which will be paid into your RA.

are you sure it is your annuity premium that is earning the extra interest?

this is pure fake news. you will receive 900 extra interest into ra. who cares whether it is you oa, sa, ma, ra or annuity that is earning it

and if at ers, you are not able to earn the full 900, who will ever earn that 900? if that is the case garmen is trying to bluff us with the numbers. do you think our garmen will stoop so low
 
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dork32

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This math is just not going to work. If you’re trying to maximize yield certain on your RA, drive it up as high as it’ll go as soon as you’re allowed, then keep doing it every January thereafter, and then start payouts at age 70. That’s the correct recipe...IF you want to do this. (I don’t think you should with these particular dollars, but if.)

you should not just based your calculations based on words. put in some numbers and show that it works.

in other words ers is better than frs(brs)+amp
 

dork32

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wat we have not compared is
ers + 65 withdrawal + amp
vs
ers +75 withdrawal
 

dork32

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I don't disagree completely that I may be taking the opposite stand.

For 20% not earning interest, I gave the answer (not my answer :s13:) according to CPF Q&A -

Q Where will the extra interest be paid to after I join CPF LIFE?
A If you have chosen the CPF LIFE Basic Plan, we will pay the extra interest earned into your Retirement Account and pay it to you in the year it is earned as part of your monthly CPF LIFE payouts. Your monthly CPF LIFE payouts will not be level throughout as they will reduce gradually when your combined balances fall below $60,000. This is due to less extra interest earned.
yes the 20% is not earning interest, at least in the case that lifeafter stated. i say again, he and me does not need the annuity portion to earn the extra interest. so effectively extra interest is due to our other accounts and not annuity.

it is like saying, we can add workfare bonus. the garmen announced it.

workfare bonus is like no bonus to me and lifeafter. you can continue to nitpick on facts that does not affect the picture.
 

dork32

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No only that you confused the issue by mentioning depletion of OA affecting interest when it is remotely relevant. You already have enough annuity premium and RA to earn the extra interest with zero OA.


:

who is the confuse guy? even your annuity is 0, you oa can continue to earn the extra interest for your ra. this is a fact. the way lifeafter speak. he definitely will have oa at 65 and many years after that.
 

dork32

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So how and when is 20% recovered? CPF does assured that at any point of death, member will not get less than his principal amount (176k?) That's not comforting. Within 10 years, the cumulative life payouts would be more than 176k. When I am more free, I will do a calculation to convince myself that 20% is somehow returned to me by x age and not lost if I go by around 90 when bequest is zero. Thumbs up if you can work out the numbers :s13:

Under the CPF LIFE plans, we will refund all your unused annuity premium, if any, into your Retirement Account after your death. The interest earned on your annuity premium is pooled together in the Lifelong Income Fund with the interest of all CPF LIFE participants. As such, the interest earned on your annuity premium will not form part of your bequest.

you want to argue with the cpf website
 

dork32

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In the above, you contradicted yourself 'yes it is not earning interest' however little it may be. That interest can be as much as $900 per year if the annuity premium is 60k or more (like for ERS).

you really dont get it. i said many times. whether the annuity amount is 53k on ers or your annuity is 18 k on frs, you are going to get that 900. things that are common can be ignored and the outcome of the calculation will still not be affected.

it is like saying
53k earns 900
18k earns 900

53-18 =35
how much is 35k earning?
 
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dork32

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Ha ha, you need many others to support you? I showed you the Q&A and I no need interpret . If you and many still think it (annuity premium) is still not earning interest, I got nothing to say.

hohoho, do i need supporters? i will take on everyone alone if it needs to be. i will not hesitate to bomb anyone, any group that is talking trash

bbc fight alone. so can i
 

dork32

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Why defer to age 70? Well, one reason is that if you die anytime before age 70, or even somewhat after, your nominees are wealthier than had you started payouts earlier. The net effective yield is never worse, but there’s a decent chance it’ll be better, for your nominees, with an age 70 start.

Why not AMP? You still can from age 70 if you wish, with annual January top ups to the new ERS. At that point it doesn’t matter too much whether it’s AMP or more Basic Plan, and the default is AMP, so fine.

i tot you do not care about how much your kids are going to get when you die.

confirm your net effect yield is no different if you go for 70 instead of 65+amp if you use xirr.

it is very irritating when people make the above statement. it is a sweeping statement that is not backed up by numbers.

put in some numbers to show that i am wrong and you are right
 
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dork32

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It appears you don't fully understand what you quoted - Your monthly CPF LIFE payouts will not be level throughout as they will reduce gradually when your combined balances fall below $60,000. This is due to less extra interest earned.

It appears you don't fully understand what you quoted - Your monthly CPF LIFE payouts will not be level throughout as they will reduce gradually when your combined balances fall below $60,000. This is due to less extra interest earned.

for myself and lifeafter, our combine balance will probably never fall below 60k in our lifetime
 

maple96

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Is CPF/CPF Life nothing but a bequest vehicle? :s13:

Now u change your mind?

I just want to register my disagreement with your claim that your recipe is correct, but reserve further comments. Just agree to disagree!

wat we have not compared is
ers + 65 withdrawal + amp
vs
ers +75 withdrawal

Ok, I think dork32 is the first to get close to my hint :s13:

Is CPF Life nothing but your high yield bequest vehicle?

So far, all the discussions, suggestions or recommendation are focusing on this, ie how to make CPF Life your high yield bequest vechicle by:

1. Topping up CPF RA to ERS at 55 and every year to the new ERS limit
2. Delay payout and choice of CPF Life Plan to 70, or until u got no choice but to start payout.
3. High chance you will die before 70, so not a single cent lost, no need to talk about which CPF Life Plan to choose, just focus on maxing your RA account to earn max interest.
4. If u dun die at 70, no choice start payout, then continue to topup RA to new ERS limit to earn max interest. Of course u should only choose Basic Plan if u want a high yield bequest vehicle until u die.
5. AMP after 70? What are u talking about? It is the default for everyone, like any RA balance to be paid to u. No need to think so hard, it is common sense.

Do u need to think so hard what to do? Do u need any secret recipe? It is simple common sense when your answer is CPF Life is your high yield bequest vehicle :s13:

But when u treat CPF Life as your Retirement Income Vehicle for Life, it is a different story, at least for me!

Begin with the end in mind!

Is CPF Life your high yield bequest vehicle or your Retirement Income Vehicle for Life?
 

SKenny

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wat we have not compared is
ers + 65 withdrawal + amp
vs
ers +75 withdrawal

I have done some numbers on these 2 options. I prefer the former; ie. ERS + 65 withdrawal + AMP.

The topup for the AMP can be funded with the CPFLife withdrawal if needed. Alternatively I can fund the topup with withdrawal from OA/SA. This way, I will build an escalating withdrawals which (on average) is cheaper than the Escalating option provide by CPF.
 
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