CPF Life Plan - Standard, Basic, Escalating --- which one better ?

maple96

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less in ra, means less is transferred from sa. so sa will have more money.

this is wat i meant that different people would choose different schemes for different reasons. there is no one perfect one size fit all solution

wat is common between us is that
we do not like we do not like lifelong income fund.
we also do not really like ra because it is not flexible.

Your monies (FRS) will be transferred from SA to RA first, then u apply to withdraw to keep BRS in RA, that 50% will be paid to your bank account.

If u want less monies in CPF Life, u have to do BRS at 55, otherwise the interest accumulated in RA will be used to calculate the premium to be transferred to the pool.
 
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Actually many people here missed the point of Standard Vs Escalating.

The main problem isn't financial, but habit formation.

With Escalating Plan, you know that you will be financially secured for life since if you can survive on Year 1's payout, you definitely can survive the subsequent years.

Viewing things from a money perspective solely is wrong, especially since we can't have an accurate grasp of our life expectancy.

Sent from . using GAGT
 

BBCWatcher

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Now, I'm a reasonable person! If somebody can point to a private escalating life annuity that affordably plugs the Standard Plan's inflation gap, for life, great! Point me/us to it -- what's the product, from which carrier?

NTUC Income, for example, sells escalating guaranteed (by NTUC, with SDIC backstop) life annuities. Would their escalating life annuity plug the gap -- would that math work? Please show me/us the alternative product and its numbers.
 

maple96

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Everything people talk are based on some undelying assumptions which they do not explain. I share my views with assumptions as well which I do not detail all the assumptions. My views are based on my experience taking care of my parents, my own financials etc.

If u depend solely on CPF Life for the rest of your life for survival, maybe or maybe not the escalating plan will help. If u have to see how u can survive from 55 to 65 without CPF Life, how u can survive for the initial 10 years from 65 to 75, etc.

Just a little food for thought
 

dork32

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Actually many people here missed the point of Standard Vs Escalating.

The main problem isn't financial, but habit formation.

With Escalating Plan, you know that you will be financially secured for life since if you can survive on Year 1's payout, you definitely can survive the subsequent years.

Viewing things from a money perspective solely is wrong, especially since we can't have an accurate grasp of our life expectancy.

Sent from . using GAGT

this is bbc's argument.

my argument is

even without the escalating plan, i will be financially secured for life. if after calculation, i realize that i have enough cash to last till i am 180 years old. i know that i will never last that long.

if i feel confident of my future, should not i place more importance in money than longevity
 

maple96

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Now, I'm a reasonable person! If somebody can point to a private escalating life annuity that affordably plugs the Standard Plan's inflation gap, for life, great! Point me/us to it -- what's the product, from which carrier?

NTUC Income, for example, sells escalating guaranteed (by NTUC, with SDIC backstop) life annuities. Would their escalating life annuity plug the gap -- would that math work? Please show me/us the alternative product and its numbers.

If u can show me a private life annuity plan which can be used to be exempted from CPF Life, show me. I will be interested.
 

BBCWatcher

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With Escalating Plan, you know that you will be financially secured for life since if you can survive on Year 1's payout, you definitely can survive the subsequent years.
Exactly, correct. To a high assurance, if you can "intercept" the Escalating Plan (preferably at age 70, but as early as age 65), you're going to be OK, for life. That particular lifestyle will be reliably preserved and held steady. With high confidence, you will never fall below that level, in real lifestyle terms, for the rest of your days.

....OK, true, the perfect CPF LIFE payout plan doesn't exist yet. Specifically, the "perfect" plan would be (a) joint/survivor (where you could pool your escalating payouts with your spouse or partner, and those escalating payouts would continue uninterrupted until you both expire), (b) actuarially fully determined at payout start (no actuarial variability permitted for anybody receiving payouts), and (c) payout adjustments pegged to an Elder Consumer Price Index, with no nominal decrease allowed in periods of deflation and with escalation resuming when the CPI-E passes its prior peak. I'd also prefer structuring the program with an optional modest real death benefit supporting a modest but respectful funeral (instead of a diminishing nominal residual that falls to zero), also pegged to the CPI-E. U.S. Social Security (for example) has practically all these characteristics, but CPF LIFE Escalating is as close as we currently get to perfection in Singapore.
 
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BBCWatcher

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If u can show me a private life annuity plan which can be used to be exempted from CPF Life, show me. I will be interested.
Actually, CPF does allow you opt out of CPF LIFE if you have an alternative life annuity meeting certain basic standards. But that's a separate issue. I'm just asking an even easier question: what private escalating life annuity is available that only needs to plug the Standard Plan's inflation gap -- what the name of the product is, and what the math is for that product that makes it compelling/interesting to buy. You can still use the CPF LIFE Standard Plan as part of your inflation fighting plan (the part that doesn't fight inflation but, from a few of its dollars, could fund inflation fighting), as long as you've got something realistic, viable, and a comparatively better value to combat inflation if it isn't the CPF LIFE Escalating Plan. So...what's the plan? That's my question, and it's a simple one. Name the product, and sketch out the math.

Nobody has answered this simple question yet.
 

BBCWatcher

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even without the escalating plan, i will be financially secured for life. if after calculation, i realize that i have enough cash to last till i am 180 years old. i know that i will never last that long.
if i feel confident of my future, should not i place more importance in money than longevity
Yes, and that's a fantastic reason not to worry about a $305/month nominal difference at payout start, because the only possible value CPF LIFE could ever have is as real foundational lifestyle preservation for life -- the real lifestyle floor below which you can NEVER fall, whatever bad happens (including a court grabbing all your assets because you screwed up, or at least a court thinks you did) -- however long it lasts.

You're still thinking in videogame scoring terms, evidently. Believe me, wealthy people (included) understand this stuff. Bernie Madoff certainly does.
 

dork32

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Yes, and that's a fantastic reason not to worry about a $305/month nominal difference at payout start, because the only possible value CPF LIFE could ever have is as real foundational lifestyle preservation for life -- the real lifestyle floor below which you can NEVER fall, whatever bad happens (including a court grabbing all your assets because you screwed up, or at least a court thinks you did) -- however long it lasts.

if i can afford a 305 difference at the start, what makes you think i cannot afford a 305 difference towards the end. and what makes you think that this 305 difference at the end is going to be the gamechanger.

yeah the court is going to seize everything i have and i am going to be a destitute. i can tell an asteriod is going to crash into earth and we are all going to die in a few years time.
 

dork32

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cpf makes up but a small portion of my assets. i will not have to depend on cpf to protect me from destitution. i am not madoff, i do not cheat people.

if i am already secured, i will be looking at ways to optimize such that my kids can be secured.
 

tangent314

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If standard plan gives you 1000 and escalating plan 900 at the start, what's your plan for combatting the loss of 1200 in the first year? Any suggestion?

You adjust your standard of living to adapt to that loss. This way, you can maintain your standard of living all the way until the end of your life, whenever that would be.

The alternative would be to live with a reducing standard of living as you age.
 

maple96

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Actually, CPF does allow you opt out of CPF LIFE if you have an alternative life annuity meeting certain basic standards. But that's a separate issue. I'm just asking an even easier question: what private escalating life annuity is available that only needs to plug the Standard Plan's inflation gap -- what the name of the product is, and what the math is for that product that makes it compelling/interesting to buy. You can still use the CPF LIFE Standard Plan as part of your inflation fighting plan (the part that doesn't fight inflation but, from a few of its dollars, could fund inflation fighting), as long as you've got something realistic, viable, and a comparatively better value to combat inflation if it isn't the CPF LIFE Escalating Plan. So...what's the plan? That's my question, and it's a simple one. Name the product, and sketch out the math.

Nobody has answered this simple question yet.

piece of cake, now i am busy, will be back, but some others gave some hints :s13:
 

dork32

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Actually, CPF does allow you opt out of CPF LIFE if you have an alternative life annuity meeting certain basic standards. But that's a separate issue. I'm just asking an even easier question: what private escalating life annuity is available that only needs to plug the Standard Plan's inflation gap -- what the name of the product is, and what the math is for that product that makes it compelling/interesting to buy. You can still use the CPF LIFE Standard Plan as part of your inflation fighting plan (the part that doesn't fight inflation but, from a few of its dollars, could fund inflation fighting), as long as you've got something realistic, viable, and a comparatively better value to combat inflation if it isn't the CPF LIFE Escalating Plan. So...what's the plan? That's my question, and it's a simple one. Name the product, and sketch out the math.

Nobody has answered this simple question yet.

i have mentioned this. cpf life may be best in its class. that does not mean you have to go into it. it is only this few years that we have cpf life. how many old people really died as destitutes before cpf life was around. and for those that really died as destitutes, would cpf life have saved them

it is like saying dbsvickers offers the lowest commision in shares trading. you must have vickers. will i die if i dont trade in shares?
 

ELKYme

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Interesting infographic on basic/escalating:
https://www.straitstimes.com/sites/default/files/articles/2017/10/22/st_20171022_cpf22a_3504624c.jpg

Everybody will have their own circumstances and should plan accordingly in order to choose the one that suits them most.

Personally for me, I’ll likely be going for the basic plan & start withdrawals latest possible time (70).

Why? Facing reality...don’t expect to live that long.
1) History of high-blood pressure.
2) History of Cholesterol.
3) Family history of heart problems.

Exercising have helped to minimise the above though.

How to combat inflation? For me, when I reach 65, I’ll likely still have a decent amount in OA/SA after setting aside ERS. I’ll stick to doing annual drawdown of <95 percent of just the interest in OA/SA. As for the principal, it’ll be a bequest unless I absolutely need to draw from it.

Definitely, for someone else that is in the pink of health, escalating plan would certainly be a better option (see infograph).

All in all, it’s still a gamble as the BEST option is the one that you correctly guess your IC surrender age.
 

JuniorLion

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The concept of Escalating Plan *is* a good concept. The implementation is poor.

BBW and tangent is fine with it. I suspect that even if the Escalating plan starts by paying 40% lower (instead of 10% no), and increase by 1.5% per year (instead of 2% now), they will continue to defend it with their lives.

Weird.
 

maple96

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Actually many people here missed the point of Standard Vs Escalating.

The main problem isn't financial, but habit formation.

With Escalating Plan, you know that you will be financially secured for life since if you can survive on Year 1's payout, you definitely can survive the subsequent years.

a BIG IF u have there! If u wait till 65 or 70 to test if u can survive on Year 1's payout, dun come here kpkb if u cannot, nobody can help u, u have to live with the escalating plan until u die :s13:

Viewing things from a money perspective solely is wrong, especially since we can't have an accurate grasp of our life expectancy.

U dun need to know your life expectancy, nobody will know, murphy's law!

Sent from . using GAGT

:s13: :s13: :s13:
 

maple96

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Actually, CPF does allow you opt out of CPF LIFE if you have an alternative life annuity meeting certain basic standards. But that's a separate issue. I'm just asking an even easier question: what private escalating life annuity is available that only needs to plug the Standard Plan's inflation gap -- what the name of the product is, and what the math is for that product that makes it compelling/interesting to buy. You can still use the CPF LIFE Standard Plan as part of your inflation fighting plan (the part that doesn't fight inflation but, from a few of its dollars, could fund inflation fighting), as long as you've got something realistic, viable, and a comparatively better value to combat inflation if it isn't the CPF LIFE Escalating Plan. So...what's the plan? That's my question, and it's a simple one. Name the product, and sketch out the math.

Nobody has answered this simple question yet.

You adjust your standard of living to adapt to that loss. This way, you can maintain your standard of living all the way until the end of your life, whenever that would be.

The alternative would be to live with a reducing standard of living as you age.

Everything people talk are based on some undelying assumptions which they do not explain. I share my views with assumptions as well which I do not detail all the assumptions. My views are based on my experience taking care of my parents, my own financials etc.

If u depend solely on CPF Life for the rest of your life for survival, maybe or maybe not the escalating plan will help. If u have to see how u can survive from 55 to 65 without CPF Life, how u can survive for the initial 10 years from 65 to 75, etc.

Just a little food for thought

Ok BBCW correct me if I am wrong on this => all along, u have been telling people Escalating Plan is the best cos it can help u combat inflation. Your major assumptions are this person only rely on CPF Life “income” for survival and u want to have to same standard of living as before u start payout.

Now tangent countered with “You adjust your standard of living to adapt to that loss. .....The alternative would be to live with a reducing standard of living as you age.”, changing your assumption which is more realistic to me. When I retire, I will adjust my standard of living, be more frugal, my needs and wants when I am older and retired will be different, eg I no need to buy working clothes/shoes, I eat less as we age but still nutritious, maybe more health supplements, then enjoy some travel while still mobile, etc. Meaning likely to spend more when not so old than older. Ok I stop there.

Now u are asking if there is a pte escalating plan which can plug the gap between Standard and Escalating Plan. Here u go, u are changing your initial assumptions above. Now u are suggesting if you have other sources of income, u can choose Standard Plan!

All along, most of the people here, based on their own sources of wealth and income, do not depend solely on CPF Life “income”. Dork32 had just posted other sources of income he will rely on and why he is going to choose Basic Plan.

U have been a strong advisor in your thread, telling people to invest, change allocation of assets as lifestyle or stages of life change, etc, Aren't u suggesting they have other sources of income to combat inflation? Grow money with money is one way to fight inflation right?

We all have our own methods/means of providing multiple sources of income, no need a pte escalating annuity! Is there any pte annuity which can pay better returns than RA 4%?
 

tangent314

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BBW and tangent is fine with it. I suspect that even if the Escalating plan starts by paying 40% lower (instead of 10% no), and increase by 1.5% per year (instead of 2% now), they will continue to defend it with their lives.


A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."




(No I won't support an escalating plan with that kind of numbers)
 
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