CPF SA Shielding hack - RIP (Obsolete)

kickass22

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WOW! all this fight for an 1.5% loss of interest rate.

It seems that 1.5% saves people's misery , the poor become rich, the cure for all financial issues etc...etc..

I am impacted as the next person, but I think instead of fighting over that 1.5% , best to use your time to look at your financial plan and figure what is the best alternative for your retirement goals or other goals.

my 2 cents.
 

sohguanh

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WOW! all this fight for an 1.5% loss of interest rate.

It seems that 1.5% saves people's misery , the poor become rich, the cure for all financial issues etc...etc..

I am impacted as the next person, but I think instead of fighting over that 1.5% , best to use your time to look at your financial plan and figure what is the best alternative for your retirement goals or other goals.

my 2 cents.
There are a few major discussion here if you notice. I am focusing on the topic on change in policy without even any parliamentary debate and getting ppl consensus etc while other readers is talking about the % loss etc. They are different topics but maybe to some they are one and the same
 

kickass22

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There are a few major discussion here if you notice. I am focusing on the topic on change in policy without even any parliamentary debate and getting ppl consensus etc while other readers is talking about the % loss etc. They are different topics but maybe to some they are one and the same
Pardon my misunderstanding.

Can you inform me what was the former official CPF policy set by the govt that was previously discussed in Parliament and set into law that was changed without discussion in the parliament and changed in the law.

Thank you.
 

sohguanh

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Pardon my misunderstanding.

Can you inform me what was the former official CPF policy set by the govt that was previously discussed in Parliament and set into law that was changed without discussion in the parliament and changed in the law.

Thank you.
Just the recent announcement to remove SA was it discussed in Parliament with any debate before announcing it will proceed as planned? But I think this forum is filled readers who like to report my posts so I shall end here. I will take my topics to the other non-hwz forum as I predict I will soon be banned here soon as per usual nothing new for me.
 

kickass22

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Just the recent announcement to remove SA was it discussed in Parliament with any debate before announcing it will proceed as planned? But I think this forum is filled readers who like to report my posts so I shall end here. I will take my topics to the other non-hwz forum as I predict I will soon be banned here soon as per usual nothing new for me.
Hmmm.... I was just asking you a question so that I am aware of the policy you are referring too etc... Not sure why you responded in this manner.
 

royalmix

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How is the G helping the poor with the saved interests?
It appears that by closing SA, they govt "saved" interests? No, the govt merely reduced their losses!

But did they really "saved" the interests from continuing to bleed from GIC?

They allowed members to topup to 4xBRS, means they still have to pay at least 4%pa interest to RA. This is better to meet their long term plan/goal by locking the monies in RA to fund the CPF Life Pool, to grow the CPF Life Pool which is more beneficial to Singaporeans, to help those who live long enough to continue to "survive" with monies from the Pool!

SA interest/shielding only benefit, you know who lah!
 

royalmix

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Like most people, you don't understand the implication of closing SA on population of CPF members above 55.

Brainwashed into thinking that the loss is for the 2% who shielded SA.
Read this hot from the oven from Money Owl:

MoneyOwl CEO & Chief Investment Officer Chuin Ting Weber, in her recent Facebook post, said that "the CPF Special Account (SA) closure has been blown out of proportion relative to the Enhanced Retirement Sum (ERS) increase"

In a MONEY FM 89.3 interview last Thursday with Michelle Martin and also in today’s The Business Times article by Genevieve Cua, she made these points:

"1. SA shielding was benefitting only a minority of cash and CPF-affluent persons 55 and above. In 2022, only 2% of 2022 CPF members were doing it (Parliamentary Q&A), and only 40% had the pre-requisite Full Retirement Sum (FRS) to even consider it.

2. CPF is not a bank account – and shouldn’t be, especially not for the minority affluent when Government gives you above market rates. CPF is a pension plan – it is an insurance product, an annuity and a very good one! If a commercial insurer had offered it, it would have sold like hotcakes. For those after 55 with the money, it means that CPF becomes more, not less useful, as there’s now more of this excellent annuity to buy. 99% of members have headroom to do it.

3. On returns – Government has clarified that in the accumulation phase from 55 to 65, the interest rate is equivalent to the SA’s. But ultimately annuities should not be compared with interest accounts or accumulation investments – the purposes are different and the risks are different. The key purpose of retirement planning is a reliable income that hedges against longevity risk, as a base tier.

4. Let’s not overplay the policy risk. What was done was the correction of a policy “loophole” or anomaly that benefitted a minority which doesn’t need it. Isn’t that what policy and CPF Board should do? But even for this group they get to buy more of an excellent annuity. Plus, Government enhanced the Matched Retirement Savings Scheme and other top-ups for the most needy and elderly. I’m sure that MOM will explain more during the Committee of Supply debate. For the majority of Singaporeans in the lower-middle and middle income, what should be done next is for Government to build a better staircase to the FRS level. CPF can then take the next step to meet its full potential as one of the most admired in the region, if not beyond."
 

fr33d0m

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Pardon my misunderstanding.

Can you inform me what was the former official CPF policy set by the govt that was previously discussed in Parliament and set into law that was changed without discussion in the parliament and changed in the law.

Thank you.

last one probably was CPF LIFE
 

fr33d0m

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It appears that by closing SA, they govt "saved" interests? No, the govt merely reduced their losses!

But did they really "saved" the interests from continuing to bleed from GIC?

They allowed members to topup to 4xBRS, means they still have to pay at least 4%pa interest to RA. This is better to meet their long term plan/goal by locking the monies in RA to fund the CPF Life Pool, to grow the CPF Life Pool which is more beneficial to Singaporeans, to help those who live long enough to continue to "survive" with monies from the Pool!

SA interest/shielding only benefit, you know who lah!

that's so called reward the right behavior.
 

BBCWatcher

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Can you inform me what was the former official CPF policy set by the govt that was previously discussed in Parliament and set into law that was changed without discussion in the parliament and changed in the law.
My understanding is that the 2.5% floor rate is written into law. Higher rates are not. While the 4.0% floor rate for MA/SA/RA is what I’d describe as “almost guaranteed,” it isn’t technically guaranteed. Effectively the government has knocked age 55+ SA down to the statutory floor rate. That rule change is well within the existing statutory provisions as I understand them.
"1. SA shielding was benefitting only a minority of cash and CPF-affluent persons 55 and above. In 2022, only 2% of 2022 CPF members were doing it (Parliamentary Q&A), and only 40% had the pre-requisite Full Retirement Sum (FRS) to even consider it.
I think this comment is overstating matters. You only needed a little more than the Basic Retirement Sum, plus a small property that was charged (or could be pledged), to make “SA shielding” worthwhile. Let’s use an example of a member turning 55 this year (2024) when the Basic Retirement Sum is $102,900. And let’s suppose the member has these balances:
  • SA: $70,000
  • OA: $48,000
  • cash: $20,000
In this example the member could “shield” $30,000 of SA. His/her new RA would be funded to $88,000 initially ($40,000 from SA, $48,000 from OA). Adding $14,900 of cash to that new RA (up to $8,000 of which would be eligible for tax relief), plus a property pledge or charge, would leave the member with $30,000 of liquid dollars in SA currently earning 4.08%. It’s also possible the member‘s spouse could transfer OA dollars into his/her RA to make up some or all of that $14,900. Let's assume there is no spouse in the picture. Here are the before/after liquidity positions:
  • Before: $20,000 of all purpose liquidity ($68,000 of total liquidity for housing)
  • After: $40,100 of all purpose liquidity (SA=$30,000, cash=$5,100, RA=$5,000)
That's a nice trade! And that's not counting the possible tax relief or factoring in a possible spouse's OA contributions. It's also possible to meet the BRS later, not necessarily upon RA formation at age 55. Although that would lose out on RA's attractive interest rate, so it's probably not a great idea to wait.

Does this situation involve an “affluent” CPF member? I’d vote no. “BRS and a little more” is not what I’d describe as affluence. Yet SA shielding would offer this member a significant advantage in nailing down a high interest rate liquid account, in this example $30,000 worth. Not any more!

N.B. I don’t think this member should’ve stopped at the BRS. I think this member should’ve tried to boost his/her Retirement Account higher. But I’m just illustrating the fact “shielding” wasn’t only for the “affluent.” In fact, the cost of shielding is higher when a member has a larger SA balance. The larger the SA balance is, the more months needed to break even on the shielding operation. Yes, many “SA shielders” were/are more financially savvy than average. Affluent? Many, but not always.

In an alternative reality the government could’ve allowed every age 55+ member to keep up to $20,000 in SA, for example. It could’ve easily done that by adjusting the RA “sweep” rules and moving >$20K to OA. It makes sense to me that the government would allow members to maintain a small “liquid emergency reserve“ as a policy goal. But evidently the government feels the (up to) $5,000 age 55+ RA withdrawal option is enough.
2. CPF is not a bank account – and shouldn’t be, especially not for the minority affluent when Government gives you above market rates. CPF is a pension plan – it is an insurance product, an annuity and a very good one! If a commercial insurer had offered it, it would have sold like hotcakes. For those after 55 with the money, it means that CPF becomes more, not less useful, as there’s now more of this excellent annuity to buy. 99% of members have headroom to do it.
Lucky us being in that <1% category.😀 Meaning the age 55+ person in my household has a SA balance that substantially exceeds the gap between the 2024 ERS (current RA) and the 2025 ERS. Many of those SA dollars can’t be shifted to RA. Those SA dollars will have to be invested elsewhere to make financial sense. OK, so be it.

Although there’s a little bit of saving grace. Previously raising the RA to the new ERS involved a cross-spousal OA to RA transfer. But that left OA dollars behind. (The donor spouse still had leftover OA dollars.) In early 2025 the donor spouse should be able to drain all OA dollars with this transfer since there will be more than enough room for that. But even so there will be a limitation.
3. On returns – Government has clarified that in the accumulation phase from 55 to 65, the interest rate is equivalent to the SA’s.
If you’re smart and can afford it (don’t genuinely need the money as early as allowed) you won’t start CPF LIFE payouts at age 65. You’ll wait. The default starting payout age is 70.

I think partly for political reasons the government likes to talk about 65 a lot. But it’s not actually the best idea to start payouts then. If you don’t need the money yet. If you do, fair enough.
 
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s0crates

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It appears that by closing SA, they govt "saved" interests? No, the govt merely reduced their losses!

But did they really "saved" the interests from continuing to bleed from GIC?

They allowed members to topup to 4xBRS, means they still have to pay at least 4%pa interest to RA. This is better to meet their long term plan/goal by locking the monies in RA to fund the CPF Life Pool, to grow the CPF Life Pool which is more beneficial to Singaporeans, to help those who live long enough to continue to "survive" with monies from the Pool!

SA interest/shielding only benefit, you know who lah!

I somewhat agree. CPF members and a lot of mainstream media still don't understand that there is a strong inherent conflict of interest between CPF, GIC and the government.

CPF provides cheap financing for GIC, which in turns funds the budget for the government. The closure of SA/RA increment can be seen as a way for GIC /government to attract more money to be kept within the CPF system and/or make the CPF withdrawals more easily projected.

This conflict of interest is structural and we just have to take care of ourselves, ESPECIALLY if our financial goals are not aligned to what most Singaporeans are aiming for.
 

Okenba

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I somewhat agree. CPF members and a lot of mainstream media still don't understand that there is a strong inherent conflict of interest between CPF, GIC and the government.

CPF provides cheap financing for GIC, which in turns funds the budget for the government. The closure of SA/RA increment can be seen as a way for GIC /government to attract more money to be kept within the CPF system and/or make the CPF withdrawals more easily projected.

This conflict of interest is structural and we just have to take care of ourselves, ESPECIALLY if our financial goals are not aligned to what most Singaporeans are aiming for.
Basically, 4% pa risk free doesn't just magic out of the air from nowhere because CPF says so.
Someone is paying for that 4% and someone is taking on the risk.

People either don't fully realise this or just don't care so long as they are not the one taking on the risk or having to pay the 4%
 

DevilPlate

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I somewhat agree. CPF members and a lot of mainstream media still don't understand that there is a strong inherent conflict of interest between CPF, GIC and the government.

CPF provides cheap financing for GIC, which in turns funds the budget for the government. The closure of SA/RA increment can be seen as a way for GIC /government to attract more money to be kept within the CPF system and/or make the CPF withdrawals more easily projected.

This conflict of interest is structural and we just have to take care of ourselves, ESPECIALLY if our financial goals are not aligned to what most Singaporeans are aiming for.
Actually CPF provides cheap financing to GIC and also the common narrative that CPFB wants to lock up all our monies are a myth.

Why do CPF have so many various caps like income ceiling caps, VC3A caps, RA caps and so on since CPFB wants our monies soooo much so they introduced caps to limit the amt they can have? Whahahhaa
 

BBCWatcher

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CPF members and a lot of mainstream media still don't understand that there is a strong inherent conflict of interest between CPF, GIC and the government.
I don't know about that. I assume the government has safeguards.

Let's just focus for a moment on how CPF is structured and operates. With the exception of the CPF Investment Scheme (when members individually decide, within a limited list of options) the CPF Board has one choice for investing members' funds: in the special bonds (Special Singapore Government Securities). There are some advantages in the SSGS arrangement. However, it's not the only possible arrangement. Many government pension boards — CalPERS, for example — have the authority to invest participants' funds directly in a wide variety of investments. Here are CalPERS's net annualized nominal U.S. dollar rates of return through June 30, 2023, over several periods:
  • 1 Year: 5.8%
  • 5 Years: 6.1%
  • 10 Years: 7.1%
  • 20 Years: 7.0%
  • 30 Years: 7.5%
CalPERS manages slightly more assets (by value) than the CPF Board does. It has about 2 million participants, the public sector workers (and retirees) in California. That compares to roughly 2.2 million active CPF members. In other words, these systems are very similar in size, although they have somewhat different missions. One important difference is that CPF includes Ordinary Accounts, used often for housing (and sometimes for education). CalPERS has no analog to Ordinary Accounts.
The closure of SA/RA increment can be seen as a way for GIC /government to attract more money to be kept within the CPF system and/or make the CPF withdrawals more easily projected.
I'm not sure about that. Closing SA accounts for the age 55+ cohort has some competing effects. For my household what'll happen is that the total number of CPF dollars will decrease, absolute CPF interest paid will decrease, but the cost per dollar (the average interest rate paid per CPF dollar) will increase. Situations vary, of course. The net total effect is hard for me to guess. A good fraction of the CPF members age 55+ who've reached the FRS (or BRS with property pledge/charge) are probably going to yank all or most of their OA dollars out in 2025 without necessarily boosting their RAs. We'll see!
 
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DevilPlate

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It appears that by closing SA, they govt "saved" interests? No, the govt merely reduced their losses!

But did they really "saved" the interests from continuing to bleed from GIC?

They allowed members to topup to 4xBRS, means they still have to pay at least 4%pa interest to RA. This is better to meet their long term plan/goal by locking the monies in RA to fund the CPF Life Pool, to grow the CPF Life Pool which is more beneficial to Singaporeans, to help those who live long enough to continue to "survive" with monies from the Pool!

SA interest/shielding only benefit, you know who lah!
Ya la…..

u know how difficult or near impossible to find a similar financial product out there that provide guaranteed capital and 4% interest plus LIQUIDITY. whahahaha
 

DevilPlate

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Govt now borrows at 3.08% range. CPF SA and RA is at 3.08% + 1% spread. I would say CPF does provide rather cheap financing to GIC.
OA at 2.5% is cheap financing today but not SA/RA lah.

also past decade ultra low interest rate how? Cpfb still provide 2.5% despite sgs bonds at 1-2%
 

BBCWatcher

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Govt now borrows at 3.08% range. CPF SA and RA is at 3.08% + 1% spread. I would say CPF does provide rather cheap financing to GIC.
OA at 2.5% is cheap financing today but not SA/RA lah.
also past decade ultra low interest rate how? Cpfb still provide 2.5% despite sgs bonds at 1-2%
It's a little more complicated. The government has multiple "subsidiaries" structured as their own, separate borrowing authorities. For example, hypothetically Temasek could go bankrupt without directly affecting the rest of government.

There's some limited information on the market cost of capital to Temasek, statutory boards, etc. The market cost is slightly higher than it is for the core government (Singapore Government Securities via the Monetary Authority of Singapore).

Yes, currently OA at 2.5% is a low cost of capital to GIC. But that's a statutory floor rate, a reasonably "sticky" rate. As DevilPlate points out, guaranteeing (or all but guaranteeing) the 2.5% floor rate is a different animal than the current market cost of capital to GIC (which is surely higher, currently).

The CPF Lifetime Retirement Investment Scheme (LRIS) would presumably "short circuit" the CPF members' funds → SGSS → GIC pathway for some portion of CPF assets. The LRIS would almost certainly outperform the SGSSes (traditional CPF rates). I happen to think the government should've implemented the LRIS years ago, and should still do so as soon as possible. The government's explanations for their delay don't make logical sense to me. Members have lost years of potential gains due to this delay. Of course there should be reasonable safeguards. For example, it's likely there will be a LRIS rule such as "Cannot invest more than 25% of CPF savings or the amount above $60,000, whichever is higher, in the LRIS." So some base amount will need to remain in traditional CPF (with the SGSS and GIC backstopping). There would also presumably be "day trading" curbs, independent review and maintenance of portfolios, and simple "target date" index portfolios. In the meantime Endowus (in particular) is an alternative, albeit not what the LRIS should be.
 

DevilPlate

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I believe the main challenge of LRIS would be educating the masses that it is OK to have certain down period to have mark to market losses.

As u know even Temasek post losses or some failed investments on the media, already got people make noises even tho that is not their monies whahahhaha
 

BBCWatcher

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I believe the main challenge of LRIS would be educating the masses that it is OK to have certain down period to have mark to market losses.
Yup, but that's why traditional CPF rates exist. Same as today with the CPF Investment Scheme.

Other countries seem to have no signficant issues doing it. Australia (superannuation) and the United States (401K) come to mind. It's better to start the public education process sooner rather than later.
As u know even Temasek post losses or some failed investments on the media, already got people make noises even tho that is not their monies whahahhaha
In fairness some people are concerned because Temasek's and GIC's "headline" total returns aren't (for example) U.S. Ivy League university endowment-like. I happen to think Temasek's and GIC's performance figures are defensible, but it's very fair to question their results and to push for more transparency.
 
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