CPF SA

[zoneguard]

Just before opt-in for cpf life, pledge property and withdraw BRS leaving FRS for cpf life standard plan.

CPF FAQ doesn't have enough details on the property pledge for this scenario or I can't find it, best to write in to CPF Board to confirm this is doable.

After cpf life standard kicks in, use the withdrawn BRS cash to top up RA for AMP.

Assuming the above is allowed, for Standard plan, the RA is used fully for the LIFE premium which goes into the Lifelong Income Fund for risk pooling.

I think the AMP default end period is 90 years old but can be changed upon request following what RSS does - but I don't know for sure, so please write in for written confirmation before proceeding.

So basically the LIFE premium for Standard plan covers longevity risk whereas the AMP portion payouts based on the member's chosen duration or until 90 years old.

End outcome (from a returns' point of view) depends on the actual life expectancy and whether the AMP period can be adjusted and whether there is sufficient liquidity elsewhere so my honest answer will be - I don't know.

 

[dork32]

please elabrate. What's the requirement of 300K extra liquid assets before considering ERS? What's the 300K for?

this is my own number, you can choose any number to begin with.

to me if i only have 100k liquid cash, i will not dump it into ers.

with my lifestyle, it should be able to sustain it nicely.

 

[dork32]

what is ers for below 55?

so if you are 56 years old, which is more liquid? money in ra or money in property?

bbc is talking about liquidity.

 

[dork32]

What's your intended use of money withdrawn from CPF?

It is unlikely that you can get a better return than CPF LIFE for almost all average people in SG.

again this statement is very wrong.

your understanding of wat a4973 posted is just not there.

he did not want to actually withdraw. he want more amp instead of cpf life.
the return for amp is definitely better than that of cpf life up to 90 years old. this is because the full amount is earning interest, whereas only 80% of the principal is earning interest for cpf life.

wat a4973 mentioned is very relevant. it maximizes the interest earn in the ra, minimize the amount lost to the cpf life.

 

[dork32]

CPF FAQ doesn't have enough details on the property pledge for this scenario or I can't find it, best to write in to CPF Board to confirm this is doable.


Assuming the above is allowed, for Standard plan, the RA is used fully for the LIFE premium which goes into the Lifelong Income Fund for risk pooling.

I think the AMP default end period is 90 years old but can be changed upon request following what RSS does - but I don't know for sure, so please write in for written confirmation before proceeding.

So basically the LIFE premium for Standard plan covers longevity risk whereas the AMP portion payouts based on the member's chosen duration or until 90 years old.

End outcome (from a returns' point of view) depends on the actual life expectancy and whether the AMP period can be adjusted and whether there is sufficient liquidity elsewhere so my honest answer will be - I don't know.

this is much better understanding. i just to add that all the 3 plans, not just standard plan, pays you till you die.

 

[dork32]

Would the following work :?
At RA creation, use cash top up to ERS.
Let RA ERS compound till age 64+.
Just before opt-in for cpf life, pledge property and withdraw BRS leaving FRS for cpf life standard plan.
After cpf life standard kicks in, use the withdrawn BRS cash to top up RA for AMP.
What are the upsides / downsides to do the above?
Thanks

there is one question mark about this.

After you choose ers, you will have to deposit money into your ra. deposits into ers is a one-way ticket. you will not be allowed to withdraw. you will not be able to choose frs. Hence your plan will not work

otherwise, ra will become my atm machine. if i have lots of spare cash, i will choose ers and top it up. then i run out cash and i start to withdraw by choosing frs. i then top it back to ers again when my cash flow gets better.

you can check out this page. it says that topup is irrevocable.
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Schemes/schemes/retirement/retirement-sum-topping-up-scheme

 

[alt2015]

there is one question mark about this.

After you choose ers, you will have to deposit money into your ra. deposits into ers is a one-way ticket. you will not be allowed to withdraw. you will not be able to choose frs. Hence your plan will not work

otherwise, ra will become my atm machine. if i have lots of spare cash, i will choose ers and top it up. then i run out cash and i start to withdraw by choosing frs. i then top it back to ers again when my cash flow gets better.

you can check out this page. it says that topup is irrevocable.
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Schemes/schemes/retirement/retirement-sum-topping-up-scheme

But can withdraw 20% of frs right? At age 65

 

[zoneguard]

there is one question mark about this.
After you choose ers, you will have to deposit money into your ra. deposits into ers is a one-way ticket. you will not be allowed to withdraw. you will not be able to choose frs. Hence your plan will not work

It might be allowed. I'll explain why:
Assume FRS in RA was met through top-ups (which are irreversible and irrevocable). BUT through the property pledge, the member is allowed to withdraw half of FRS which is BRS exactly. Why this is allowed because the property pledge ensures monies flow back to CPF upon a property sale.

So if the member withdraws from RA from ERS to FRS which is exactly BRS by pledging the property, the pledge ensures monies flow back to CPF upon property sale.

Anyway it's best to write in for written confirmation from CPF Board before execution. I could be totally wrong and talking nonsense.

 

[Tiger9119]

Top-up monies are set aside specifically for retirement needs and will be streamed out as monthly payouts under the Retirement Sum Scheme, or CPF LIFE1. It cannot be withdrawn in cash or used for any other purposes such as education, investment, insurance premium payments, housing etc.

Top-up monies will form part of your retirement sum. However, top-up monies in the RA will not be taken into account in computing how much RA savings2 can be withdrawn in cash (for property owners), as well as how much RA savings2 can be used for housing purpose and CPF transfers to spouses.

1 Note that non top-up monies will be used first before top-up monies.

2 RA savings refers to the cash set aside in the RA (excluding amounts such as interest earned, any government grants received and top-ups received under the Retirement Sum Topping-up scheme), plus amounts withdrawn such as monthly payouts and payout eligibility age lump sum withdrawal.

Please click on Top-up monies in RA (PDF, 0.3MB) for an example.

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Assets/members/Documents/Illustration_of_topup_monies_in_RA.pdf

 

[a4973]

What's your intended use of money withdrawn from CPF?

It is unlikely that you can get a better return than CPF LIFE for almost all average people in SG.

Plow the withdrawn BRS level cash back into RA for AMP.

 

[fr33d0m]

again this statement is very wrong.

your understanding of wat a4973 posted is just not there.

he did not want to actually withdraw. he want more amp instead of cpf life.
the return for amp is definitely better than that of cpf life up to 90 years old. this is because the full amount is earning interest, whereas only 80% of the principal is earning interest for cpf life.

wat a4973 mentioned is very relevant. it maximizes the interest earn in the ra, minimize the amount lost to the cpf life.

that's only possible now.

CPF SA shielding can be gone by the time he wants to shield.

CPF SA/RA may not accure interest or adequate interest by the time he wants to.

CPF LIFE is still very new now and I don't think the board has thought through the process and all the loopholes it creates.

If age is only 40+ now, there are still 10-15 years for CPF board to keep changing rules especially after more experience with CPF LIFE.

 

[fr33d0m]

Plow the withdrawn BRS level cash back into RA for AMP.

This should be the first loophole to be closed by CPF board.

What is CPF board thinking of?

RA/SA/OA should not be used as piggy bank. It is a pure waste of taxpayers' money.

 

[a4973]

there is one question mark about this.

After you choose ers, you will have to deposit money into your ra. deposits into ers is a one-way ticket. you will not be allowed to withdraw. you will not be able to choose frs. Hence your plan will not work

otherwise, ra will become my atm machine. if i have lots of spare cash, i will choose ers and top it up. then i run out cash and i start to withdraw by choosing frs. i then top it back to ers again when my cash flow gets better.

you can check out this page. it says that topup is irrevocable.
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Schemes/schemes/retirement/retirement-sum-topping-up-scheme

#1935 helps me answer.
Yes, my understanding from speaking with cpf is that if my FRS was fully funded with Mandatory and Voluntary Contribution no RSTU then even after topping up to ERS with cash, with a sufficient property pledge, one can still withdraw 1 x BRS from the original FRS amount. Eg my ERS is made up of BRS 1 (MC) + BRS 2 (MC) + BRS 3 (RSTU), the BRS 1 can actually be withdrawn with sufficient property pledge.

 

[zoneguard]

#1935 helps me answer.
Yes, my understanding from speaking with cpf is that if my FRS was fully funded with Mandatory and Voluntary Contribution no RSTU then even after topping up to ERS with cash, with a sufficient property pledge, one can still withdraw 1 x BRS from the original FRS amount. Eg my ERS is made up of BRS 1 (MC) + BRS 2 (MC) + BRS 3 (RSTU), the BRS 1 can actually be withdrawn with sufficient property pledge.

Great, and please get written confirmation from CPF before doing the deed. The property pledge conditions - lease and co-owner's share look complicated and hard to fulfill for me but I suppose you have done your due diligence there.

Good luck and if you do succeed,please come back to let us know.

 

[Iamnobodyla]

Are u sure ?

ERS is made up of 3x BRS. If no pledge property meaning u can only withdraw 1x BRS and keep 2x BRS (FRS) inside

If u pledge, meaning u can withdraw 2x BRS and keep only 1x BRS.

But if ur ERS consists of top up, meaning after u pledge, u must keep BRS x 1 + whatever top up amount and its interests inside. Then the rest withdraw

Is my understanding same as yours

Edit: I think we mean the same thing

#1935 helps me answer.
Yes, my understanding from speaking with cpf is that if my FRS was fully funded with Mandatory and Voluntary Contribution no RSTU then even after topping up to ERS with cash, with a sufficient property pledge, one can still withdraw 1 x BRS from the original FRS amount. Eg my ERS is made up of BRS 1 (MC) + BRS 2 (MC) + BRS 3 (RSTU), the BRS 1 can actually be withdrawn with sufficient property pledge.

 

[Nofear40]

Are u sure ?

ERS is made up of 3x BRS. If no pledge property meaning u can only withdraw 1x BRS and keep 2x BRS (FRS) inside

If u pledge, meaning u can withdraw 2x BRS and keep only 1x BRS.

But if ur ERS consists of top up, meaning after u pledge, u must keep BRS x 1 + whatever top up amount and its interests inside. Then the rest withdraw

Is my understanding same as yours

My understanding too. Have asked cpf board to confirm

 

[BBCWatcher]

Plow the withdrawn BRS level cash back into RA for AMP.

That’s not allowed if you have topped up to ERS level. The ERS limit is inclusive of that particular withdrawal.

 

[Value.Matrix]

My understanding too. Have asked cpf board to confirm

You can only pledge and withdraw money (its going to be complicated) that is in excess of BRS, but top up monies are not allowed

e.g you have 181,000 FRS for RA (taken from SA/OA).
After pledging, you can withdraw $90,500

If you top up to ERS, you can only still withdraw $90,500 (because topped up monies are excluded from the withdrawal.

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/askjamie/user/uploads/EgRAsavingswithdrawn_propertypledgeandpledgedamt.pdf

https://heartlandboy.com/money-withdraw-from-your-cpf-at-55/ written in collaboration with cpf

 

[addict951]

Guys, quick question: use enets to trsf into SA, must wait how long then can see the update at cpf online? Next working day?

 

[BBCWatcher]

Guys, quick question: use enets to trsf into SA, must wait how long then can see the update at cpf online? Next working day?

It could be a couple business days. Use PayNow QR if you’re trying to get something credited before month end or year end since that’s the fastest available channel. I suggest PayNow QR one day ahead of the deadline, so for example if the deadline is December 31 try PayNow QR on the morning of December 30.