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BBCWatcher

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We may see properties surging to anoyhigh next year due to post-55s taking out their SA and OA to dump into properties.
The last thing I want to do at 55 is to take on another mortgage
I think some people age 55+ might pay off their outstanding mortgages faster using former SA dollars. So in that sense they’ll dump some (former) SA dollars into property.
 

sohguanh

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and wait for monthly rental to spend rather than able to spend it without any restrictions?

Don't intend to leave that much wealth for the kids
Some kids have this mindset they did not ask to be born in this world so they hold their parents responsible to provide for them if the kids cannot feed themselves even when they reach adulthood. A few readers in this forum have such mindset. Usually such mindset come from those adults who cannot earn monies so got this perfect excuse to deflect any criticism on them and blame parents instead how convenient.
 

highsulphur

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Some kids have this mindset they did not ask to be born in this world so they hold their parents responsible to provide for them if the kids cannot feed themselves even when they reach adulthood. A few readers in this forum have such mindset. Usually such mindset come from those adults who cannot earn monies so got this perfect excuse to deflect any criticism on them and blame parents instead how convenient.
such young generation are entitled to their views but i feel sorry for them and their parents
 

reddevil0728

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such young generation are entitled to their views but i feel sorry for them and their parents
but technically is true right. the kids did not ask to be born. regardless of whether young generation or not.

so long as is a kid
 

andyhtc

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The last thing I want to do at 55 is to take on another mortgage

A lot of young seniors in their mid 50s will have kids in their early 20s. They are likely to buy a new property using the SA and OA in their kids' name.

Hence, the kids will have a down payment gift but they will have to pay the instalments if they are already working. So we are likely to see a lot of 1 and 2-bedders being snapped up in the market from next year.

This is similar to the price surge in properties when CPF OA was first allowed to buy properties.
 

andyhtc

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what's the basis for this speculation?

Singaporeans and Malaysian PRs believe that properties are a safe bet than other investments e.g. shares in the long run. Moreover, the Singapore government will control the land and property prices such that there will not be a crash but gradual appreciation in prices.

I also believe that Johor will also see a spill-over effect from this next year given that RTS will be ready in 2026. The young seniors may also buy a holiday home for just S$150k+. I visited a number of show flats there and I saw those young seniors snapping up the new launches (I think they are mad buying at those psf).

In short, many young seniors are likely to convert their SA into properties for their kids.
 

reddevil0728

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Singaporeans and Malaysian PRs believe that properties are a safe bet than other investments e.g. shares in the long run.
While I wouldn’t disagree with this anecdotally, it’s too sweeping to say such a big majority will believe and hence do what you are doing, notwithstanding like what others have pointed out they are at the age where their long run is not as long as others of younger ages to even think of that.
Moreover, the Singapore government will control the land and property prices such that there will not be a crash but gradual appreciation in prices.
Ok yep. Still not seeing the valid basis yet.
I also believe that Johor will also see a spill-over effect from this next year given that RTS will be ready in 2026. The young seniors may also buy a holiday home for just S$150k+. I visited a number of show flats there and I saw those young seniors snapping up the new launches (I think they are mad buying at those psf).
So the number of young seniors you saw, you extrapolated to suggest a large majority will do so?
In short, many young seniors are likely to convert their SA into properties for their kids.
This sounds too sweeping.
 

andyhtc

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While I wouldn’t disagree with this anecdotally, it’s too sweeping to say such a big majority will believe and hence do what you are doing, notwithstanding like what others have pointed out they are at the age where their long run is not as long as others of younger ages to even think of that.

Ok yep. Still not seeing the valid basis yet.

So the number of young seniors you saw, you extrapolated to suggest a large majority will do so?

This sounds too sweeping.

A good number are likely to do it.
 

reddevil0728

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A lot of young seniors in their mid 50s will have kids in their early 20s. They are likely to buy a new property using the SA and OA in their kids' name.

Hence, the kids will have a down payment gift but they will have to pay the instalments if they are already working. So we are likely to see a lot of 1 and 2-bedders being snapped up in the market from next year.

This is similar to the price surge in properties when CPF OA was first allowed to buy properties.
The connection to giving to their kid is very weak linkage.
 

sohguanh

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In short, many young seniors are likely to convert their SA into properties for their kids.
Your mindset does not speak of everyone in your generation. Think why Spore govt come out with Parents Maintenance Act for which Msia refuse to have one?

The reality is nowadays kids are 啃老族 and your mindset just fit nicely into their plan how they hope to be your children instead so shiok.

I for one will never put my kids names on property a big ticket item using my monies. See around too much scary cases even children hoping parents faster go mindset at play. My CPF monies is to spend on myself and pamper myself after working so hard and feed the kids to adulthood I want my privacy and monies to spend on myself.
 

sohguanh

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such young generation are entitled to their views but i feel sorry for them and their parents
Now is 2024 no need to feel sorry. To me it is like a business transaction parents make a bet and it turns out bad. Now that casino chips aka child demand the parents to make it up to them. I think such kids parents can cut all ties let them die of hunger lagi better. I for one will not hesitate to do that if my kids turn out that way. I will then invoke Spore Parents Maintenance Act and sue them make them life even lagi jialat. 一拍两散 I ok. I old close to coffin they young they rugi in this game of lawsuit.
 

andyhtc

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Your mindset does not speak of everyone in your generation. Think why Spore govt come out with Parents Maintenance Act for which Msia refuse to have one?

The reality is nowadays kids are 啃老族 and your mindset just fit nicely into their plan how they hope to be your children instead so shiok.

I for one will never put my kids names on property a big ticket item using my monies. See around too much scary cases even children hoping parents faster go mindset at play. My CPF monies is to spend on myself and pamper myself after working so hard and feed the kids to adulthood I want my privacy and monies to spend on myself.

During the earlier property boom around 2013, many parents use their below 21 kids' names to get around ABSD until it was stopped.

Fast forward, those in mid 50s might use the same trick again since their kids will be 21 or slightly older.

I'm referring to the middle class and above with spare few hundred k in their SA after setting aside FRS.

Just a caution don't put too much money into CPF Life if you see the recent track records of the government when it wants to cut cost (SA) or make more money (Income).
 

andyhtc

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Yea still very sweeping. Is it a basis sure because it is possible. Is this basis robust, doubtful.

No issue. Opposing views are fine with me. I could be wrong. We share ideas and debate on the probable outcomes.
 

sohguanh

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During the earlier property boom around 2013, many parents use their below 21 kids' names to get around ABSD until it was stopped.

Fast forward, those in mid 50s might use the same trick again since their kids will be 21 or slightly older.

I'm referring to the middle class and above with spare few hundred k in their SA after setting aside FRS.

Just a caution don't put too much money into CPF Life if you see the recent track records of the government when it wants to cut cost (SA) or make more money (Income).
ABSD? Not HDB har? So you are talking about the other richer segment of young seniors I see. I belong to HDB camp. If the non-HDB camp want pamper their kids carry on their monies their choice.

We do know in Spore the HDB ppl outnumbered non-HDB ppl by a lot. So I guess your post is targeted at that small group instead.
 

reddevil0728

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During the earlier property boom around 2013, many parents use their below 21 kids' names to get around ABSD until it was stopped.

Fast forward, those in mid 50s might use the same trick again since their kids will be 21 or slightly older.

I'm referring to the middle class and above with spare few hundred k in their SA after setting aside FRS.

Just a caution don't put too much money into CPF Life if you see the recent track records of the government when it wants to cut cost (SA) or make more money (Income).
many that you see might not be in fact many leh.
No issue. Opposing views are fine with me. I could be wrong. We share ideas and debate on the probable outcomes.
sometimes is not just about opposing views.. is about having evidence to backup a claim if not is just sweeping
 

BBCWatcher

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A lot of young seniors in their mid 50s will have kids in their early 20s. They are likely to buy a new property using the SA and OA in their kids' name.
Well, in early 2025 SAs will be closed for all members age 55+. So this’ll affect some 65 and 75 year old members, as examples. It’s more than just mid-50s members.

However, these members were already typically earning a composite rate of 3.X% or even 2.X% on their withdrawable CPF savings. That’s because OA balances drag the effective interest rate down. Even T-bills are currently still yielding north of 3.6%. We’ll see what 2025 brings, but SA+OA interest isn’t currently typically terrific. If a parent or grandparent wants to buy a house using these CPF dollars they’re probably already doing it.

There are a very few weird people who shielded SA who are getting closer to 4.08% currently. Those people will still have RA available thanks to the turbocharged ERS rise. There are very, very few people with SA balances that can’t be fully absorbed within the ERS increase.
Hence, the kids will have a down payment gift but they will have to pay the instalments if they are already working. So we are likely to see a lot of 1 and 2-bedders being snapped up in the market from next year.
But there’s another problem: do this and you effectively nuke the child’s (or grandchild’s) ability to buy a HDB flat. There’s a new(ish) rule requiring private property owners to sell, wait 15 months, and then they can buy HDB flats. To the extent CPF members redirect these dollars to housing it could have divergent effects, conceivably even reducing net demand for HDB flats.
This is similar to the price surge in properties when CPF OA was first allowed to buy properties.
I don’t think it’s that similar. These CPF dollars are already liquid. If they’re redirected into homes they become fairly or very illiquid, a very different proposition. A proposition which is already available. The only thing that’s changing is the effective interest rate on these dollars (SA+OA) is decreasing, although it’s fully recoverable within CPF for the vast majority of members via RA (and correspondingly higher lifetime retirement income) and MA for those who wish. If members want liquid substitutes then they’ll first be finding higher-than-2.5% fixed deposits, T-bills, and SSBs as notable examples. Homes are not a close substitute, and even then any member with an outstanding high or moderate rate mortgage is likely to retire their own mortgage first.

On top of all that, if there’s any there there the government will hike ABSD literally overnight. Which will be very effective.

Net net, I’m not expecting any big impacts on home sales. Speaking for my household anecdotally, we plan to peg at the new, higher ERS (one spouse can do that, the other to follow), keep MA pegged at the BHS, withdraw any surplus landing in OA (and every month too), and plow the surplus atop long-term investment flows (i.e. low cost stock and bond index funds). And maybe marginally enjoy life a little more. Buy the new 2025 iPhone SE, perhaps.

Conceivably we’d reduce ordinary bank account balances for day to day spending in favor of keeping some OA dollars on account since those dollars are liquid (for the spouse age 55+), basically like a 2.5% interest savings account. But that’s just ordinary cash management sort of stuff. This 2025 change is extremely unlikely to affect our household’s or extended household’s property-related decisions.
 

andyhtc

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Well, in early 2025 SAs will be closed for all members age 55+. So this’ll affect some 65 and 75 year old members, as examples. It’s more than just mid-50s members.

However, these members were already typically earning a composite rate of 3.X% or even 2.X% on their withdrawable CPF savings. That’s because OA balances drag the effective interest rate down. Even T-bills are currently still yielding north of 3.6%. We’ll see what 2025 brings, but SA+OA interest isn’t currently typically terrific. If a parent or grandparent wants to buy a house using these CPF dollars they’re probably already doing it.

There are a very few weird people who shielded SA who are getting closer to 4.08% currently. Those people will still have RA available thanks to the turbocharged ERS rise. There are very, very few people with SA balances that can’t be fully absorbed within the ERS increase.

But there’s another problem: do this and you effectively nuke the child’s (or grandchild’s) ability to buy a HDB flat. There’s a new(ish) rule requiring private property owners to sell, wait 15 months, and then they can buy HDB flats. To the extent CPF members redirect these dollars to housing it could have divergent effects, conceivably even reducing net demand for HDB flats.

I don’t think it’s that similar. These CPF dollars are already liquid. If they’re redirected into homes they become fairly or very illiquid, a very different proposition. A proposition which is already available. The only thing that’s changing is the effective interest rate on these dollars (SA+OA) is decreasing, although it’s fully recoverable within CPF for the vast majority of members via RA (and correspondingly higher lifetime retirement income) and MA for those who wish. If members want liquid substitutes then they’ll first be finding higher-than-2.5% fixed deposits, T-bills, and SSBs as notable examples. Homes are not a close substitute, and even then any member with an outstanding high or moderate rate mortgage is likely to retire their own mortgage first.

On top of all that, if there’s any there there the government will hike ABSD literally overnight. Which will be very effective.

Net net, I’m not expecting any big impacts on home sales. Speaking for my household anecdotally, we plan to peg at the new, higher ERS (one spouse can do that, the other to follow), keep MA pegged at the BHS, withdraw any surplus landing in OA (and every month too), and plow the surplus atop long-term investment flows (i.e. low cost stock and bond index funds). And maybe marginally enjoy life a little more. Buy the new 2025 iPhone SE, perhaps.

Conceivably we’d reduce ordinary bank account balances for day to day spending in favor of keeping some OA dollars on account since those dollars are liquid (for the spouse age 55+), basically like a 2.5% interest savings account. But that’s just ordinary cash management sort of stuff. This 2025 change is extremely unlikely to affect our household’s or extended household’s property-related decisions.

Most people will still be working beyond 55. So their CPF SA (terminated) will go into OA automatically every month instead of earning 4%. The large SA 4% compounding effect will be gone. OA 2.5% essentially means getting eaten up by inflation. Leaving large liquid amount around can also be dangerous in times of stock market crashes or scams.

many that you see might not be in fact many leh.

sometimes is not just about opposing views.. is about having evidence to backup a claim if not is just sweeping

That's because a lot of my friends are already doing that. Several well-off EDMW members have also declared helping their kids to buy private properties.

As pointed out by another EDMW member in this thread, the private property market is not that big. You just need a small % of the middle class who convert their CPF OA into property to move the market.

The future private properties will be very expensive, so if the kids want to buy one, either they are super rich or they must have parents to help them with the down payment. The HDB to private path is now partially sealed off by HDB.

Our era of buying a private property by ourselves may no longer be sustainable. I always believe in properties so my view skewed towards that, so take my view with a large dose of salt.
 

reddevil0728

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Most people will still be working beyond 55. So their CPF SA (terminated) will go into OA automatically every month instead of earning 4%. The large SA 4% compounding effect will be gone. OA 2.5% essentially means getting eaten up by inflation. Leaving large liquid amount around can also be dangerous in times of stock market crashes or scams.



That's because a lot of my friends are already doing that.
but the question is, is it representative?
Several well-off EDMW members have also declared helping their kids to buy private properties.
I mean EDMW ain't exactly the most credible of sources when the saying there goes that the median wage there is 20k?

It's precisely because of such "evidence". hence makes what you said quite sweeping.
As pointed out by another EDMW member in this thread, the private property market is not that big. You just need a small % of the middle class who convert their CPF OA into property to move the market.
a small % might seem small in terms of % terms, but the actual absolute number is huge. not sure if you have realised that.
The future private properties will be very expensive, so if the kids want to buy one, either they are super rich or they have parents to help them with the down payment.

Our era of buying a private property by ourselves may no longer be sustainable. I always believe in properties so my view skewed towards that, so take my view with a pinch of salt.
ok sure, that's a reasonable view to have. but that still does not suggest many will do it.
 
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