Desktop Virtualisation (Citrix, VMWare, Hyper-V)

[180699]

Could anyone care to exchange/share knowledge on Virtual Computing. I'm being task to R&D on the system design and budgetary costing base on 1200 users across 8 regions.

1) Scalability
2) Cost saving, in business perspective
3) Inital investment and annual increment

I'm open to all comments, be it positve or negative. Thanks.

 

[anime_toys08]

1) Scalability - Depends on your systems /hardware supporting the VDI solution

2) Cost Saving? Not really; the first 2 yrs of business investment is going to kill the project most of the time. Depending on what kind of solution track you decide to deploy and most of the time, its really about saving operational time + maintainence.

3) very high; software licensing is the show stopper here plus Microsoft VA per user per year.
Hardware investment extremely high; perhaps close to 50-100k per storage unit x 8 region + server investments + Citrix and VMware VDI solutions. I have not included DR and BCP.

Very little annual increment; probably if you intend to get Software Assurance after the first yr and VA as mentioned above and yearly server hw maintenance as opposed to 1200 PCs



There are some alternative VDI solutions today in the market; having said that, your biz case is too vague. 8 regions connecting to where? Singapore ar? VDI solutions dont scale well past WAN to a certain extend; esp with Multimedia / VoIP / etc etc ...

Each region to have its own VDI solution better with own hardware; unless you say performance is not an issue then of course other things can be mitigated.

Nothing wrong with VDI but a business problem must be there to justify this like helpdesk cloning images on laptops frequently , security risks of data leakage on local notebooks etc

Whats yours?

 

[180699]

Hi anime_toys08, thanks for replying.

My objective for the vdi solution is to minimize traffic flows across regions, on the other hand, to improve end-user overall performance. Having said that traffic across WAN indeed is my concern.

Taking SG as Centralized VDI backend, deploying regions are Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, China, Hong Kong and Mexico.

Currently, we established site-to-site vpn to above mentioned regions, with wan accelerator in place. 50% of the traffics are sql data entries and queries, 30% email traffic and 20% file sharing.

I attempt to do a proposal to management on data leakage, reduced IT OPEX and lower network bandwidth, however I slapped myself with SGD $2.6millons of investment for full setup on backend servers, storage, 1200 thin-client terminals and licenses. Oh, my calculation is base on Citrix model, price are budgetary from 2 SIs.

The killing portion is RAM and VDI licenses (MS and Citrix). Imagine I have 1200 of windows 7, on average 2GB ram each, making up 2.4TB RAM! I planned to use Dell PE R910, come with 64 ram slots up to 1TB RAM. 1 pieces of 16GB ram cost me $1,300 (est.) and multiple by 64 pieces is $83,200. Moreover I need 2.4TB roundup to 3TB ram equal $249,600, which is like 10% of the bomb list. BUT wait, did I size correctly??

VDI license, MS VDA @ $110ea and Citrix @ $700ea, meaning each user cost $810. For 1200 users, $972,000. Oh my god, just ram and VDI licenses cost $1mil.

So I'm throwing myself this questions, where is the savings? It seems like saving all of support and security trouble for me but on the other hand, I'm asking for trouble.

On top of that, is there other VDI solution that have the capablitiy for dynamic RAM sharing? What would be the pros and cons for sharing?

AND, talking about Scalability, can we start small and increase according to deployment phases? Citrix restrictions is, servers added to pool must be same CPU Model and type, which worries me after 5 to 6 years whereby by cpu faced EOL.

Any other solution can overcome these 2 concerns?

 

[anime_toys08]

Hi anime_toys08, thanks for replying.

My objective for the vdi solution is to minimize traffic flows across regions, on the other hand, to improve end-user overall performance. Having said that traffic across WAN indeed is my concern.

Taking SG as Centralized VDI backend, deploying regions are Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, China, Hong Kong and Mexico.

Currently, we established site-to-site vpn to above mentioned regions, with wan accelerator in place. 50% of the traffics are sql data entries and queries, 30% email traffic and 20% file sharing.

I attempt to do a proposal to management on data leakage, reduced IT OPEX and lower network bandwidth, however I slapped myself with SGD $2.6millons of investment for full setup on backend servers, storage, 1200 thin-client terminals and licenses. Oh, my calculation is base on Citrix model, price are budgetary from 2 SIs.

The killing portion is RAM and VDI licenses (MS and Citrix). Imagine I have 1200 of windows 7, on average 2GB ram each, making up 2.4TB RAM! I planned to use Dell PE R910, come with 64 ram slots up to 1TB RAM. 1 pieces of 16GB ram cost me $1,300 (est.) and multiple by 64 pieces is $83,200. Moreover I need 2.4TB roundup to 3TB ram equal $249,600, which is like 10% of the bomb list. BUT wait, did I size correctly??

VDI license, MS VDA @ $110ea and Citrix @ $700ea, meaning each user cost $810. For 1200 users, $972,000. Oh my god, just ram and VDI licenses cost $1mil.

So I'm throwing myself this questions, where is the savings? It seems like saving all of support and security trouble for me but on the other hand, I'm asking for trouble.

On top of that, is there other VDI solution that have the capablitiy for dynamic RAM sharing? What would be the pros and cons for sharing?

AND, talking about Scalability, can we start small and increase according to deployment phases? Citrix restrictions is, servers added to pool must be same CPU Model and type, which worries me after 5 to 6 years whereby by cpu faced EOL.

Any other solution can overcome these 2 concerns?

Regards to SW licensing, it is that expensive ...
But if you can justify with your operational deployments, PC deployments and do a comparison, then u will know the project is viable or ROI returnable.

Servers and Storage
The economic of scale for memory is somehow different, for servers i rather buy more physical servers with 290k and scale accordingly.. Put it this way, after 5 yrs your current HArdware would also be EOL; by that time, you would still need to change HArdware ...


Virtual Machine Memory
You really need 2GB of memory for office task workers?
In that case, why don;t you use XenApp or other App virtualization for your task workers? relative cheaper and easier to setup. Data still resides on the server...


The business problems for VDI must be BIG enough to cover the Initial investment;else you are just asking for it or your corp is just plain rich.

By the way, what gives you the idea that traffic would be reduced?

 

[anime_toys08]

http://www.vmguru.nl/wordpress/2009/12/vmware-view-sizing-best-practices/

related to Vmware view but is one solution that you can refer to

 

[180699]

In fact, I'm in doubt on the SW costing, is too expensive to believe.

It actually makes sense to have more physical servers in a pool but does it means I also need more fibre channels to fibre switch, connecting to storage?

Standard practice in many firms, every 3yr desktop refresh and every 5yr servers refresh, however my co doesn't practice this, hence making me more headache when try to convince them on the ROI.

As for RAM sizing, task worker-1GB, management staff-2GB and developers/finanical staff-4GB. So I'm using 2GB each as a benchmark for sizing. Does xenapp/thinapp actually helps to reduce desktop resource? I tried thinapp on traditional desktop, result is the same as without using thinapp. But I noticed the OS registry remains as clean as new.

Initally we wanted to deploy in Singapore only, however the benefits are not strong enough reason being, in local, we don't really faced poor ISP connectivity. So we decide to do big, bigger in figure, hoping fast ROI but frightened my management. Haha...

Packets size, since all data transmissions and processes are within server farm, only display packet transmit across network, so logically lesser bandwidth traffic. Especially large file sharings or file transfer. Hope I'm right...

 

[anime_toys08]

In fact, I'm in doubt on the SW costing, is too expensive to believe.

It actually makes sense to have more physical servers in a pool but does it means I also need more fibre channels to fibre switch, connecting to storage?

Standard practice in many firms, every 3yr desktop refresh and every 5yr servers refresh, however my co doesn't practice this, hence making me more headache when try to convince them on the ROI.

As for RAM sizing, task worker-1GB, management staff-2GB and developers/finanical staff-4GB. So I'm using 2GB each as a benchmark for sizing. Does xenapp/thinapp actually helps to reduce desktop resource? I tried thinapp on traditional desktop, result is the same as without using thinapp. But I noticed the OS registry remains as clean as new.

Initally we wanted to deploy in Singapore only, however the benefits are not strong enough reason being, in local, we don't really faced poor ISP connectivity. So we decide to do big, bigger in figure, hoping fast ROI but frightened my management. Haha...

Packets size, since all data transmissions and processes are within server farm, only display packet transmit across network, so logically lesser bandwidth traffic. Especially large file sharings or file transfer. Hope I'm right...

XenApp consumes server resource and also RDS cal. ... means more investment .....

More servers mean more HBA cards means more FC switches and usually one FC switch is not enough to prevent SPOF.

Frankly speaking, for VDIs, start small with POC and pilot group of users ~20-50 users would be safer. This way, lower the cost of investment and achieve better project management in terms of knowledge and scalability for further VDI phases and if the VDI solution does not work out nicely, at least it can be dedicated for training labs for around the region or centralized training

The licensing is that expensive as the amount scales but its still a budgetary proposal .... just haggle your Resellers and SIs to give discounts if you are really keen...


To really justify to top management, business problems must be resolved by VDI - *which is sometimes impossible*

 

[180699]

I strongly agree with the following statement!! They just don't understand.

Btw, meet up with Citrix rep. yesterday, they do agree VDI is not the way to go in my business case, instead they recommend XenApp. But how can XenApp helps? They didn't really mention how it benefit us.

To really justify to top management, business problems must be resolved by VDI - *which is sometimes impossible*

 

[anime_toys08]

I strongly agree with the following statement!! They just don't understand.

Btw, meet up with Citrix rep. yesterday, they do agree VDI is not the way to go in my business case, instead they recommend XenApp. But how can XenApp helps? They didn't really mention how it benefit us.

well for your citrix rep to comment; Citrix XenApp does provide consolidation in another manner.

But its not really for file transfer more or application virtualization.

 

[kanchelsis]

A bit of IT Security tips

As an IT Security practitioner, some tips from me:

Project Management

1. Involve your IT Security Consultant or Lead EARLY in your discussions/study. Get his requirements, else don't later cry foul or blame him/her when budget estimates fall way short of security requirements when you consult him/her LATER. This had been my common experience with many projects

Corporate IT Policies

1. Many of your company's existing IT policies, standards, procedures, people and security solutions probably did not cater for virtual platforms. Involve the appropriate department/s to ensure that when your solution comes in, the company is operationally ready.

Infrastructure Planning

1. Resource planning - Security solutions can be resource-taxing on your virtual machines. HIDS is a prime example. Take these into account when calculating your required CPU/RAM/etc per VM.
2. Licensing costs - Security solutions need to be installed on your HOST as well as your VMs. So, virtualization may help save your carbon footprint, but not on the licensing costs.
3. Troubleshooting/Incident-Management - Note that during troubleshooting or incident management (i.e. you got malware), you will need experienced people who are knowledgeable in the infra AS WELL AS the virtualization platform. Virtualization adds its own layer of complexity to support/maintenance/investigations.
4. Unsmoke the sales people - Many virtualization solution sales people do not mention security much. Well you better get your IT Security Lead to look into it, else you'll get smoked. One good practice that I'll share with you is to segregate servers of different risk profiles into different physical machines. For example, do not host your Active Directory VM and your webfront VMs on the same physical host (webfront gets hacked, hacker breaks out into hypervisor, there goes your authentication or other high value servers on that machine). Yes, that will mean that not all physical machines can be optimizally utilized, but if you want to mix them, then understand the risks that you are signing up for.

 

[180699]

well for your citrix rep to comment; Citrix XenApp does provide consolidation in another manner.

But its not really for file transfer more or application virtualization.

Bro, I saw some videos on youtube and it doesn't seem beneficial however I'm going to download the trial and have a feel on it.

 

[180699]

Hi Bro,

Unfortunately, I'm "bao sua bao hai" IT. My team targets to

1) Centralized Storage (covers data loss and leakage)
2) Increase user PC access experience
3) Reduce data packet flying across networks

Now the thing is investment costm especially license $$ kills...

As an IT Security practitioner, some tips from me:

Project Management

1. Involve your IT Security Consultant or Lead EARLY in your discussions/study. Get his requirements, else don't later cry foul or blame him/her when budget estimates fall way short of security requirements when you consult him/her LATER. This had been my common experience with many projects

Corporate IT Policies

1. Many of your company's existing IT policies, standards, procedures, people and security solutions probably did not cater for virtual platforms. Involve the appropriate department/s to ensure that when your solution comes in, the company is operationally ready.

Infrastructure Planning

1. Resource planning - Security solutions can be resource-taxing on your virtual machines. HIDS is a prime example. Take these into account when calculating your required CPU/RAM/etc per VM.
2. Licensing costs - Security solutions need to be installed on your HOST as well as your VMs. So, virtualization may help save your carbon footprint, but not on the licensing costs.
3. Troubleshooting/Incident-Management - Note that during troubleshooting or incident management (i.e. you got malware), you will need experienced people who are knowledgeable in the infra AS WELL AS the virtualization platform. Virtualization adds its own layer of complexity to support/maintenance/investigations.
4. Unsmoke the sales people - Many virtualization solution sales people do not mention security much. Well you better get your IT Security Lead to look into it, else you'll get smoked. One good practice that I'll share with you is to segregate servers of different risk profiles into different physical machines. For example, do not host your Active Directory VM and your webfront VMs on the same physical host (webfront gets hacked, hacker breaks out into hypervisor, there goes your authentication or other high value servers on that machine). Yes, that will mean that not all physical machines can be optimizally utilized, but if you want to mix them, then understand the risks that you are signing up for.

 

[kanchelsis]

Hi Bro,

Unfortunately, I'm "bao sua bao hai" IT. My team targets to

1) Centralized Storage (covers data loss and leakage)
2) Increase user PC access experience
3) Reduce data packet flying across networks

Now the thing is investment costm especially license $$ kills...

Amid all the hype and vendor-smoke, here is one interesting link that seems applicable to you : http://www.slideshare.net/interop/desktop-virtualization-primer-one-size-does-not-fit-all

Good luck! Chiong ah!!!

 

[anime_toys08]

Amid all the hype and vendor-smoke, here is one interesting link that seems applicable to you : http://www.slideshare.net/interop/desktop-virtualization-primer-one-size-does-not-fit-all

Good luck! Chiong ah!!!

Not every vendor smoke and vdi is not a hype, but i agree with your security views

 

[180699]

Thanks... Vendors indeed form a thick smoke screen, causing my team to go into dreamland and 1 fine evening, while doing costing, suddenly realised I nearly drown in my dream, imaginating 2.5mil of $2 notes surrounding me...

Now, VDI seems like a "good to have" solution however upper management call the shot, I just do my necessary proposal.

Forsee... I fine day, when my co increase head counts, maybe just 2 new staff, there might be a chance I need to spend $10,000++ just for 2 new VDI access...

So where is the savings? Well, I still need to do my proposal... Sianz...

 

[anime_toys08]

your vendor is who ? mind sharing ?

 

[Inix]

I strongly agree with the following statement!! They just don't understand.

Btw, meet up with Citrix rep. yesterday, they do agree VDI is not the way to go in my business case, instead they recommend XenApp. But how can XenApp helps? They didn't really mention how it benefit us.

Citrix Xenapp talks about "Application Virtualisation" VDI talks about Desktop Virtualisation. Totally different thing. Citrix Xenapp is an excellent tool for powering WAN Apps for Client-Server Application. But it comes with its set of challenges such as printing. I'm CCA for Citrix MPSv3. Loved it back than, but honestly, if you don't know how to manage it, it will become your worse nightmare.

On VDI. Moving forward to $$$, is $2.1M for VDI expensive? Yes and no. Yes if we look into absolute values, no if you look long term. Note that most corporate IT policies depreciate hardware every 3-5 years. If you spend $2K average per user for its desktop for 5 years, you are paying around 2+M every 5 years, which isn't that uncommon.

Note that VDI itself presents a huge technical challenge. What most Vendors don't tell you (Citrix / VMWare), is that VDI is very very taxing on I/O. If you have never imagine a 1 hour bootup time, start imagining now. To resolve this, it isn't that difficult. Go for SSD for its 15K IOOps. But cost becomes a MAJOR MAJOR problem as SSD isn't cheap. Search for this thing call VDI Boot Storm.

So whats next, perhaps you can look for a solution that can offer SSD Caching with SAS Disks as backend. Talking to VMWare / Citrix alone will not help you as they will be limited to their own scope. You will probably need to talk to more people than that.

Lastly, in the software industry, 1 $ is 1 $. A budgetory quote can always be revised eventually. You just need to show the right amount of interest, have enough competition, and lock the order in the right time (such as Q-End).

Just a note. I don't work for both VMWare / Citrix. I don't even work for an SI

 

[anime_toys08]

Citrix Xenapp talks about "Application Virtualisation" VDI talks about Desktop Virtualisation. Totally different thing. Citrix Xenapp is an excellent tool for powering WAN Apps for Client-Server Application. But it comes with its set of challenges such as printing. I'm CCA for Citrix MPSv3. Loved it back than, but honestly, if you don't know how to manage it, it will become your worse nightmare.

On VDI. Moving forward to $$$, is $2.1M for VDI expensive? Yes and no. Yes if we look into absolute values, no if you look long term. Note that most corporate IT policies depreciate hardware every 3-5 years. If you spend $2K average per user for its desktop for 5 years, you are paying around 2+M every 5 years, which isn't that uncommon.

Note that VDI itself presents a huge technical challenge. What most Vendors don't tell you (Citrix / VMWare), is that VDI is very very taxing on I/O. If you have never imagine a 1 hour bootup time, start imagining now. To resolve this, it isn't that difficult. Go for SSD for its 15K IOOps. But cost becomes a MAJOR MAJOR problem as SSD isn't cheap. Search for this thing call VDI Boot Storm.

So whats next, perhaps you can look for a solution that can offer SSD Caching with SAS Disks as backend. Talking to VMWare / Citrix alone will not help you as they will be limited to their own scope. You will probably need to talk to more people than that.

Lastly, in the software industry, 1 $ is 1 $. A budgetory quote can always be revised eventually. You just need to show the right amount of interest, have enough competition, and lock the order in the right time (such as Q-End).

Just a note. I don't work for both VMWare / Citrix. I don't even work for an SI

Good note on the storage portion
Storage today can mitigate boot up storms using both FC and SSD ...

http://blogs.netapp.com/virtualization/2009/03/netapp-vdi-in-action-9000-seat-deployment.html

http://www.vmware.com/files/pdf/partners/netapp/VMware_View_on_NetApp_Storage.pdf

SSD is fantastic IOPS.. but the investment into it saw the cost b4....

 

[180699]

Thanks for sharing. Yap, I'm do aware the difference between Xenapp and Xendesktop. In layman terms, Xenapp = Managed Portable Apps whereby XenDesktop = Virtual PC.

On IT system point of view, we do gain tonnes of benefits in VDI deployment but in management business point of view, there's no benefit to the company. My upper management take IT security very lightly and doesn't enforce any policy on PC refresh. The PC I'm using now is 10yrs old, P4-2.8GHz 533fsb 478 socket, not even have HyperThreading. Futhermore with SSD, the bomb just got bigger. Apart from I/O, we also needs to take care on RAM sizing, which is another bomb.

I was cracking a joke with my colleague yesterday, IF we put $2.1mil into Fixed Deposit, with minimum 0.5% interest P.A., across 6 years, I got abt $63k interest. Wow.. Much more ROI then we implement VDI, which savings on VDI only abt $30k after 6 years....

Ok, jokes aside, I'm definitely hope that I can sell this VDI to upper management bcos I'm taking this as an experience gaining which I can include it into my personal portfolio...

Citrix Xenapp talks about "Application Virtualisation" VDI talks about Desktop Virtualisation. Totally different thing. Citrix Xenapp is an excellent tool for powering WAN Apps for Client-Server Application. But it comes with its set of challenges such as printing. I'm CCA for Citrix MPSv3. Loved it back than, but honestly, if you don't know how to manage it, it will become your worse nightmare.

On VDI. Moving forward to $$$, is $2.1M for VDI expensive? Yes and no. Yes if we look into absolute values, no if you look long term. Note that most corporate IT policies depreciate hardware every 3-5 years. If you spend $2K average per user for its desktop for 5 years, you are paying around 2+M every 5 years, which isn't that uncommon.

Note that VDI itself presents a huge technical challenge. What most Vendors don't tell you (Citrix / VMWare), is that VDI is very very taxing on I/O. If you have never imagine a 1 hour bootup time, start imagining now. To resolve this, it isn't that difficult. Go for SSD for its 15K IOOps. But cost becomes a MAJOR MAJOR problem as SSD isn't cheap. Search for this thing call VDI Boot Storm.

So whats next, perhaps you can look for a solution that can offer SSD Caching with SAS Disks as backend. Talking to VMWare / Citrix alone will not help you as they will be limited to their own scope. You will probably need to talk to more people than that.

Lastly, in the software industry, 1 $ is 1 $. A budgetory quote can always be revised eventually. You just need to show the right amount of interest, have enough competition, and lock the order in the right time (such as Q-End).

Just a note. I don't work for both VMWare / Citrix. I don't even work for an SI

 

[Inix]

Good note on the storage portion
Storage today can mitigate boot up storms using both FC and SSD ...

http://blogs.netapp.com/virtualization/2009/03/netapp-vdi-in-action-9000-seat-deployment.html

http://www.vmware.com/files/pdf/partners/netapp/VMware_View_on_NetApp_Storage.pdf

SSD is fantastic IOPS.. but the investment into it saw the cost b4....

Yap, switching to SSD will essentially remove all your worries, until the most important one (cost) comes in. Thats where caching via SSD on SAS disks is probably more logical IMO.