Drivetrain loss

[LoUsyGamER]

Tldr: your tyre, rims and even brakes affect your long term spending.

Recently, I was surfing the web and came across multiple dyno tests for car. There are those on rollers and without wheels. I came to notice, despite which shops doing ecu remap, the gain is usually the same, plus minus a bit. Interesting, the dyno on rollers (with wheels) and dyno without wheels gains around the same hp. Thus, the drivetrain loss is fixed for ecu remap instead of percentage.

What is drivetrain loss? When manufacturer sells car with horsepower (eg 100hp) stated, that 100hp is determine at the crank/engine, aka chp (crank hp). However, the power after going through the gearbox, axle, wheels and etc, the wheel (touches the road) had a much lower hp, aka whp (wheel hp). Awd will loss more hp than fwd/rwd, automatic losses more hp than manual. Let's take a awd car as example, assuming the chp is 100hp, if it losses 30% due to drivetrain, the whp is 70hp. While a fwd car might only loss 20%, the whp is 80%. That is why awd cars are more thirsty than fwd cars, assuming the same car model.

Based on research and forums, the drivetrain losses about 50% are due to tyres, rims and brakes. The loss ratio of tyres: rims: brakes is estimated to be 1: 1.5: 2. So for drivetrain loss due to weight gain by the tyres, it is 2 times the drivetrain loss due to weight gain of the brake.

Nowadays people like to change rims, bbk which also affect the tyres. Bigger and wider rims, bigger brake more cool. The bigger and wider the rims, the likelihood the rims and the fitted tyres are much heavier. If from 17 rims to 19 or even 20 inch rims, it could weight double the original size. Thus, the drivetrain loss jumps.

For sport car, high power:weigh ratio, every 0.5kg gain at wheels (tyre and rims) losses around 1 whp, losing 0.5kg gains around 1whp. For most bnb cars, every 0.5kg gain at wheels losses around 0.3whp, 0.5kg loss gain around 0.3whp. However losing wheels weight has diminishing effect on drivetrain loss after a certain weight loss.

With more drivetrain loss, the car will need to stress more to reach the same speed compared to a lighter wheels, petrol burns faster and brake slower.

When next time you want to change rims or even just change tyres, go for something light, your car feels lighter, more agile, more reactive to your brake (better than bbk in Sg context and non-track) and you will visit petrol kiosk less often.

Stock is the best.

 

[EJB]

Tldr: your tyre, rims and even brakes affect your long term spending.

Recently, I was surfing the web and came across multiple dyno tests for car. There are those on rollers and without wheels. I came to notice, despite which shops doing ecu remap, the gain is usually the same, plus minus a bit. Interesting, the dyno on rollers (with wheels) and dyno without wheels gains around the same hp. Thus, the drivetrain loss is fixed for ecu remap instead of percentage.

What is drivetrain loss? When manufacturer sells car with horsepower (eg 100hp) stated, that 100hp is determine at the crank/engine, aka chp (crank hp). However, the power after going through the gearbox, axle, wheels and etc, the wheel (touches the road) had a much lower hp, aka whp (wheel hp). Awd will loss more hp than fwd/rwd, automatic losses more hp than manual. Let's take a awd car as example, assuming the chp is 100hp, if it losses 30% due to drivetrain, the whp is 70hp. While a fwd car might only loss 20%, the whp is 80%. That is why awd cars are more thirsty than fwd cars, assuming the same car model.

Based on research and forums, the drivetrain losses about 50% are due to tyres, rims and brakes. The loss ratio of tyres: rims: brakes is estimated to be 1: 1.5: 2. So for drivetrain loss due to weight gain by the tyres, it is 2 times the drivetrain loss due to weight gain of the brake.

Nowadays people like to change rims, bbk which also affect the tyres. Bigger and wider rims, bigger brake more cool. The bigger and wider the rims, the likelihood the rims and the fitted tyres are much heavier. If from 17 rims to 19 or even 20 inch rims, it could weight double the original size. Thus, the drivetrain loss jumps.

For sport car, high power:weigh ratio, every 0.5kg gain at wheels (tyre and rims) losses around 1 whp, losing 0.5kg gains around 1whp. For most bnb cars, every 0.5kg gain at wheels losses around 0.3whp, 0.5kg loss gain around 0.3whp. However losing wheels weight has diminishing effect on drivetrain loss after a certain weight loss.

With more drivetrain loss, the car will need to stress more to reach the same speed compared to a lighter wheels, petrol burns faster and brake slower.

When next time you want to change rims or even just change tyres, go for something light, your car feels lighter, more agile, more reactive to your brake (better than bbk in Sg context and non-track) and you will visit petrol kiosk less often.

Stock is the best.

Stage 1 tuning won't net you a lot, it's basically just to improve the driving feel and the air-fuel ratio and idling RPMs. You won't get significant gains out of a NA apart from maybe a 5% boost in torque and a 10bhp increase or so.

Some even use generic remaps, which of course, you can expect lower gains since no two cars are built the same. When in doubt, stay stock.

Dyno and piggybacks are way to get more power, but on a NA, seriously, save the money. Stage 1 tuning will suffice for a better drive. Stage 2 only if you intend to play CAI, open pod, exhaust and other performance parts.

Modding is just spending money you don't have, to impress people that you don't know. If you blindly mod, then your gains will even be worse. I've seen so many just spend money because people say 'good good, must do, won't regret' and they plunge without knowing what they are expecting.

Thus as per your conclusion - Stock is best.

 

[LoUsyGamER]

Stage 1 tuning won't net you a lot, it's basically just to improve the driving feel and the air-fuel ratio and idling RPMs. You won't get significant gains out of a NA apart from maybe a 5% boost in torque and a 10bhp increase or so.

Some even use generic remaps, which of course, you can expect lower gains since no two cars are built the same. When in doubt, stay stock.

Dyno and piggybacks are way to get more power, but on a NA, seriously, save the money. Stage 1 tuning will suffice for a better drive. Stage 2 only if you intend to play CAI, open pod, exhaust and other performance parts.

Modding is just spending money you don't have, to impress people that you don't know. If you blindly mod, then your gains will even be worse. I've seen so many just spend money because people say 'good good, must do, won't regret' and they plunge without knowing what they are expecting.

Thus as per your conclusion - Stock is best.

At the end of the day, got to see what the driver wants.

The easiest and fastest is gain whp is to cut drivetrain loss with tyre and rims.

If want to look different and trying to get people to say wow. Need to spend more $, forged magnesium rims/aluminium rims with bigger tyres, forged bbk. Then comes with all the legal mod to try to reduce heat built up in car, adjust afr, transmission coding and final axle ratio mod.

However, most people just add more rotation weight with bigger and wider cast iron rims and the car burns fuel faster and move and brake slower. Some install with heavier bbk. Just like what you share, xxx told me this mod is good.

Hence in a more relatable way with non car drivers, just getting a lighter tyre when need to change tyre helps.

 

[EJB]

At the end of the day, got to see what the driver wants.

The easiest and fastest is gain whp is to cut drivetrain loss with tyre and rims.

If want to look different and trying to get people to say wow. Need to spend more $, magnesium rims/aluminium rims with bigger tyres, forged bbk. Then comes with all the legal mod to try to reduce heat built up in car, adjust afr, transmission coding and final axle ratio mod.

However, most people just add more rotation weight with bigger and wider cast iron rims and the car burns fuel faster and move and brake slower. Some install with heavier bbk. Just like what you share, xxx told me this mod is good.

Hence in a more relatable way with non car drivers, just getting a lighter tyre when need to change tyre helps.

Yes, like I said, in SG, is not about speed, tuning, piggyback etc, is depending on what one wants to achieve.

Changing tyres/rims so as to be 'lighter' so that you can save fuel, is like spending upfront on fuel for the next 7 years before you even breakeven. Lighter tyre helps, but by how much? The cost is still paid upfront.

 

[LoUsyGamER]

Yes, like I said, in SG, is not about speed, tuning, piggyback etc, is depending on what one wants to achieve.

Changing tyres/rims so as to be 'lighter' so that you can save fuel, is like spending upfront on fuel for the next 7 years before you even breakeven. Lighter tyre helps, but by how much? The cost is still paid upfront.

I think there is difference in what we discuss. Haha.

If someone tries to change rims for looks, it is not just $$ spend on the rims, it is likely to be heavy, end up spend more on petrol. It will be worse if wider rims because wider tyres are more heavy. If light rims, it will cost more. So stock is best if don't want to spend more.

So for someone who is price conscious and not modding, look for lighter tyre in the same price range. For example, touring tyre of $100, so is the tyre, one is using the lightest or lightest touring tyre in that price range of $100? If no, can consider to change to the lighter tyre of the same price range when one needs to change tyre, not purposely go change.

 

[malalover]

in sg cars just need more torque. too bad if remap/tune liao cannot change back stock.

 

[EJB]

I think there is difference in what we discuss. Haha.

If someone tries to change rims for looks, it is not just $$ spend on the rims, it is likely to be heavy, end up spend more on petrol. It will be worse if wider rims because wider tyres are more heavy. If light rims, it will cost more. So stock is best if don't want to spend more.

So for someone who is price conscious and not modding, look for lighter tyre in the same price range. For example, touring tyre of $100, so is the tyre, one is using the lightest or lightest touring tyre in that price range of $100? If no, can consider to change to the lighter tyre of the same price range when one needs to change tyre, not purposely go change.

Haha I think so too, my replies a bit off I realised

 

[EJB]

in sg cars just need more torque. too bad if remap/tune liao cannot change back stock.

Just extract the map from another car and put in. It's a standard map across all the same models.

 

[malalover]

Just extract the map from another car and put in. It's a standard map across all the same models.

ahh, wah but still troublesome. i saw that got those 'tuning' chips with app settings can set 'sports' mode all those and still can setback to stock mode. if install those chip then get a tuner to retune the 'sports' mode doable? so that u can change back to stock mapping easily via app. But does those tuning chip even properly tune the ecu at all or just overwrite the signals only?

either way na cars not worth to tune want tune is get diesel or turbo cars

 

[LoUsyGamER]

ahh, wah but still troublesome. i saw that got those 'tuning' chips with app settings can set 'sports' mode all those and still can setback to stock mode. if install those chip then get a tuner to retune the 'sports' mode doable? so that u can change back to stock mapping easily via app. But does those tuning chip even properly tune the ecu at all or just overwrite the signals only?

either way na cars not worth to tune want tune is get diesel or turbo cars

Na engine will need parts to mod to gain. However, still can map to adjust the torque curve. At the end of the day, worth it or not depends on the driver.

 

[EJB]

ahh, wah but still troublesome. i saw that got those 'tuning' chips with app settings can set 'sports' mode all those and still can setback to stock mode. if install those chip then get a tuner to retune the 'sports' mode doable? so that u can change back to stock mapping easily via app. But does those tuning chip even properly tune the ecu at all or just overwrite the signals only?

either way na cars not worth to tune want tune is get diesel or turbo cars

Piggyback. You tune the piggyback ECU chips. But it's known that these chips lose their settings over time and you need to retune again. It's a piggyback ECU that over-rides the car's ECU.

Anyway, I've done tuning with 2 tuners, they keep my original map and also my remapped ECU. In the event I need, they will flash back for me, so nothing to worry there.

 

[Needmysleep]

in sg cars just need more torque. too bad if remap/tune liao cannot change back stock.

TC engines on new cars can flash back stock via OBD2 port . In fact , can be done in less than 5 min if you have the program at home.

 

[malalover]

Piggyback. You tune the piggyback ECU chips. But it's known that these chips lose their settings over time and you need to retune again. It's a piggyback ECU that over-rides the car's ECU.

Anyway, I've done tuning with 2 tuners, they keep my original map and also my remapped ECU. In the event I need, they will flash back for me, so nothing to worry there.

i see... thinking of doing that to my car with a NA engine.

 

[EJB]

i see... thinking of doing that to my car with a NA engine.

Last time is UniChip Q, not sure if there's compatibility with nowadays ECUs and also if there's any upgraded version. It was mostly used for cars whose security code for the in-car ECU is unable to be broken for flashing.

For those whose car can unlock ECU, it's much preferred to flash the ECU direct.

 

[malalover]

Last time is UniChip Q, not sure if there's compatibility with nowadays ECUs and also if there's any upgraded version. It was mostly used for cars whose security code for the in-car ECU is unable to be broken for flashing.

For those whose car can unlock ECU, it's much preferred to flash the ECU direct.

i see. ecu tuning will fail inspections anot? if it doesnt then flash direct actually quite ok, rather then having an external chip. cos for me the pros for the external chip is the ability to change back to stock settings and back to tuned settings anytime w/o going back to the tuners

 

[EJB]

i see. ecu tuning will fail inspections anot? if it doesnt then flash direct actually quite ok, rather then having an external chip. cos for me the pros for the external chip is the ability to change back to stock settings and back to tuned settings anytime w/o going back to the tuners

ECUs belong to the designers of the machine, has nothing to do with physical hardware inspection. You think the inspectors will plug in a computer to the OBD, scan your ECU not even the ADs themselves will risk this apart from the contis where they do scan ECU changes.

 

[malalover]

ECUs belong to the designers of the machine, has nothing to do with physical hardware inspection. You think the inspectors will plug in a computer to the OBD, scan your ECU not even the ADs themselves will risk this apart from the contis where they do scan ECU changes.

i see, thanks for the advice big brother

 

[EJB]

i see, thanks for the advice big brother

The only big brother is @LoUsyGamER

 

[myviowner]

i see, thanks for the advice big brother

I second this... #EJB is the big brother here!

 

[myviowner]

The only big brother is @LoUsyGamER

Lolz.... big brother #EJB, emo again. haiz