eldershield comprehensive plan

[limster]

Good for you that you have some form of investment, provided you succeed. If I were a multi-millionaire, I might not care about Eldershield also.

I don't think you need to be a multi-millionaire today in order to have a comfortable retirement income at 65.

Thanks to the power of compounding and dividends ("CD" ) I think a share portfolio worth $1m returning $50k p.a. ($4k+ per month) diividends at age 65 is achievable for a lot of people.

Even if you don't achieve it and end up with only $500k portfolio, 2k dividends per month is also better than Eldershield payout and you can pass on the shares to your children to led them enjoy the power of CD after you are gone. There are some blogs about Dividend Warrior strategies, you have to google as I don't think I can post links here...

 

[jansenangge]

Term plan is you pay the premium with cash until the policy end. If a person reaches 80years old, he still have to pay cash even though he is not working.

Eldershield plan you can pay the premium with medisave until 80years old or earlier depending on your age. It cover a person for lifetime. If a person buy a medical plan with a cash rider, there will be enough medisave for deduction.

Medisave cannot be use for investment purposes too.

 

[autumnsil]

To enhance the Eldershield, is it better to max out the $600 limit for medisave deduction?

I don't understand why many people decide not to buy any since they are only using their Medisave. You try to save this money in your Medisave but most of it you can't even take it out in your lifetime.

Imagine, if anything goes wrong and you become severely disabled, you may have say $40,000 in your Medisave but ZERO Eldershield protection. What are you going to do with the $40,000 stuck inside your Medisave?

Assuming you need $2,000 per month (very conservative figure, it is usually more than that!) to maintain your disability, Within less than 2 years, your Medisave gets completely wiped out! Because while you were healthy and financially able, you decided not to invest in just a few hundred $ EVERY YEAR (very manageable) from your Medisave to buy Eldershield, which potentially can give you monthly coverage of the $2,000 you need FOR LIFE!

Even for those who think they got ways to make money that can earn more than Eldershield, it does not remove the fact that you CANNOT withdraw your Medisave money for other purposes. Why keep it there?

Please see if my logic above makes sense or not. Thanks.

 

[bigmice]

To enhance the Eldershield, is it better to max out the $600 limit for medisave deduction?

I don't understand why many people decide not to buy any since they are only using their Medisave. You try to save this money in your Medisave but most of it you can't even take it out in your lifetime.

Imagine, if anything goes wrong and you become severely disabled, you may have say $40,000 in your Medisave but ZERO Eldershield protection. What are you going to do with the $40,000 stuck inside your Medisave?

Assuming you need $2,000 per month (very conservative figure, it is usually more than that!) to maintain your disability, Within less than 2 years, your Medisave gets completely wiped out! Because while you were healthy and financially able, you decided not to invest in just a few hundred $ EVERY YEAR (very manageable) from your Medisave to buy Eldershield, which potentially can give you monthly coverage of the $2,000 you need FOR LIFE!

Even for those who think they got ways to make money that can earn more than Eldershield, it does not remove the fact that you CANNOT withdraw your Medisave money for other purposes. Why keep it there?

Please see if my logic above makes sense or not. Thanks.

my option
1. eldshield is not good enough, if you feel need this plan ,should upgrade.
2. Medisave will stuck in your CPF account? I don't thinks so, when people grow old, need pay higher and higher medishield premium after age beyond 60's. also can pay partial medical bill after retired.

 

[limster]

Imagine, if anything goes wrong and you become severely disabled, you may have say $40,000 in your Medisave but ZERO Eldershield protection. What are you going to do with the $40,000 stuck inside your Medisave?

Term policy with partial/total disability clause: $500k. / and possibly a $250k CI rider if you must cover CI.
Share portfolio giving $2k-$4k per month.
Full hospitalisation coverage with integrated medishield plan

If you have the above 3, I don't see any need for Eldershield. Eldershield is offered at age 40, so you can plot a graph of your share portfolio from age 25 to age 40 and extrapolate to age 65 whether you will hit your target of $2k-$4k dividends a month. If are on course to hit the target and already have term+hospitalisation, Eldershield is irrelevant.


Also if you have $40k in medisave at age 65 and never draw down for integrated medishield plans or to pay medical bills, congratulations, you are super healthy. For the rest of us, after age 65, we no longer have salary and have to draw down medisave to pay various integrated shield plan premiums which are more expensive the older you get.

For the lucky people who have so much medisave, just consider the medisave a 4% savings bond to be passed on to your children.

 

[autumnsil]

my option
1. eldshield is not good enough, if you feel need this plan ,should upgrade.
2. Medisave will stuck in your CPF account? I don't thinks so, when people grow old, need pay higher and higher medishield premium after age beyond 60's. also can pay partial medical bill after retired.

Thanks for feedback.

For point no. 2, I initially had the same thinking as you. Then recently, realised my understanding is incomplete.

Suppose a person is age 75. The Medishield premium can be as high as $3,200! But guess what. Our dear gahmen capped the limit of Medisave withdrawal to only $1,200. The rest of the $2,000 you got to find other means to pay.

Consider the present year. So suppose a person retires at age 65 with $43,500 in his Medisave. At an average withdrawal of $1,200 a year to buy Medishield, by 85 years old (assuming he can live that long), the amount used is only $24,000. Still got excess.

Of course, up to the individual to decide whether to buy Eldershield for security. But the amount that can be used from our Medisave to buy Medishield when we are old is very very little.

 

[autumnsil]

Term policy with partial/total disability clause: $500k. / and possibly a $250k CI rider if you must cover CI.
Share portfolio giving $2k-$4k per month.
Full hospitalisation coverage with integrated medishield plan

Thanks for your feedback and sharing.

1. Term -- Are you referring to the one at age 65 and below? We need to consider what happens AFTER age 65. I asked my insurance advisor, there is no term after 65 that covers disability. Term for CI after 65 is very expensive. And CI term plans and Eldershield are not related. A person may be disabled but not suffering from any CI. Can't claim from CI term plan.

If you know of any term after 65 that covers disability, please let me know. The power of Eldershield is for your protection after 65.

2. Shares -- Wow, this one is powerful. To be honest, I don't know how to make that kind of returns ($2-4k a month) consistently, even after retirement. Since it is based on shares, there must be some high risks involved? Not sure if it's safe for one to do it after retirement. Unless the person is rich to begin with or is super smart in such form of investing?

3. Eldershield is not similar to integrated Medishield plan. When a person is severely disabled, he or she doesn't stay in hospital. Very likely, need some form of assistance like a caretaker or stay in a nursing home. They are definitely not cheap. 20-30 years from now, I won't be surprised if the basic cost is at least $3-4k to take care of a disabled person. Medishield can't help here.

Please share if you have any advice or see it differently. I may miss something....

 

[jansenangge]

There is a limit on your medisave saving which is cap at $45,500 as for now. The excess wiil flow to your special account which you will never be withdraw. Only healthy person can opt for the upgrade. If you reach 40years old and you had been working for the last 10years, you should hit the cap since only the healthy can upgrade.

It is a good idea that a parent can give the medisave money to their child when they pass on. But will the child give the parent $1000/mth if the parent becomes disable?

 

[limster]

1. Term -- Are you referring to the one at age 65 and below? We need to consider what happens AFTER age 65. I asked my insurance advisor, there is no term after 65 that covers disability. Term for CI after 65 is very expensive. And CI term plans and Eldershield are not related. A person may be disabled but not suffering from any CI. Can't claim from CI term plan.

I also thought that term after 65 was expensive. But please see the other thread on Tokio Marine's Term to 99. It actually appears affordable much to my surprise. You also know the commission for agent is very low so the only people discussing it are regular forummers and no agents. Whereas here when people mention enhanced Eldershield, all the agents appear. What you can do it buy 2 term policies, maybe 250k to 65, and 250k to 99 (plus whatever CI rider till 65)

2. Shares -- Wow, this one is powerful. To be honest, I don't know how to make that kind of returns ($2-4k a month) consistently, even after retirement. Since it is based on shares, there must be some high risks involved? Not sure if it's safe for one to do it after retirement. Unless the person is rich to begin with or is super smart in such form of investing?

Agents, financial advisers hope that you will never learn how to do so. Otherwise they will be out of a job.

One guaranteed way of not getting a retirement share portfolio is to buy expensive insurance policies which contribute to agent's retirement fund, not yours.

With the knowledge available in the internet and some people with dividend-focused investment blogs, getting this sort of return is achievable. Like I mentioned, Eldershield is only offered at age 40. Now if you are 30, you have 10 years to age 40 to see whether your portfolio grows. If your porfolio can grow between 30-40 , then surely you can continue growing it to age 65. If your portfolio lost money, then yes, maybe signup eldershield.

3. Eldershield is not similar to integrated Medishield plan. When a person is severely disabled, he or she doesn't stay in hospital. Very likely, need some form of assistance like a caretaker or stay in a nursing home. They are definitely not cheap. 20-30 years from now, I won't be surprised if the basic cost is at least $3-4k to take care of a disabled person. Medishield can't help here.

You don't look at the payout. You also look at how much you pay for it.
I am not opposed to Eldershield in principle.
I am opposed to Eldershield and especially enhanced Eldershield because of its high costs, the low probability of claim, and the low claim values.
And to repeat, if my share portfolio gives me monthly dividends higher than monthly Eldershield payout, then I don't need Eldershield.

 

[whitesand]

3. Eldershield is not similar to integrated Medishield plan. When a person is severely disabled, he or she doesn't stay in hospital. Very likely, need some form of assistance like a caretaker or stay in a nursing home. They are definitely not cheap. 20-30 years from now, I won't be surprised if the basic cost is at least $3-4k to take care of a disabled person. Medishield can't help here.

And, the chance of Eldershield can help is also very slim.

Take a look at the pay out condition:

ElderShield classifies a person as severely disabled when the person is certified to be unable to perform at least 3 out of 6 of the following tasks, even with special equipment and requires constant assistance.

EVEN with SPECIAL EQUIPMENT AND CONSTANT ASSISTANCE.

I asked before, there is no limit/cap on the cost of attaining this so call special equipment and constant assistance. In other words, so long as there is some kind so extremely costly machine/robot invented under the sun, that can help a little bit to perform that 6 functions, the disability claim under that function is not counted. If you need 6 different machines to perform each of the 6 function, too bad: not counted too.

If you look at the medical robots development recently, how many of that 6 functions (washing, dressing, feeding, toileting, mobility, transferring) can already now performed partially, and/or with partial assistance by machine/robot/care taker? Remember, we have to hit 3 before it is claimable.

Eldershield, is not named properly. Is should named: EXTREME Severe Disability Insurance. It is not to cover sickness when one got old, but a very rare EXTREME Severe disability, defined by them. I think if one is 植物人, one is still not sure if he is claimable.

I do appreciate the intention of Eldershield, but I don't like the claim condition, and the premium/payout ratio.

 

[autumnsil]

Thanks limster, I will take note of your points.

whitesand: Actually, what you mentioned is the reason I often hear people reject Eldershield completely. But even though it may not be claimable if an aid can be used, I think we should not over-read it.

So suppose a person has a leg amputated, and can move around in a wheelchair or crutches, with all other body functions intact yes, then Eldershield is not claimable.

You probably posed the question of special machines to the person on the phone or at the reception of some government institution and caught the poor fella off guard. No one will like to take responsibility to answer it. But so far, i have not heard of anyone being severely disabled and can use some advanced machine costing millions of $ to do the job for him or her (like Robocop?!!).

On the other hand, I can give you 2 real life examples. A friend's father had brain cancer which after operation, left him unable to care for himself. Can't dress, eat or move his body. He is wheelchair bound. Yes, he could claim his Eldershield easily. No hassle.

Case 2: A young girl I know met with an unfortunate and UNEXPECTED road accident which left her paralysed waist down. She had physiotherapy, can still move her hands but weakly. In summary, she cannot do at least 3 of the ADLs specified in Eldershield and requires external care. Of course, she is too young to buy or claim Eldershield. But if she is past 40, I am very sure she can claim it.

The most important point from the 2 cases above is, it can happen to ANYONE. No machines can help these people who suffer such disabilities.It is unlikely to come in decades long after we are gone. If any of us is the first to invent this machine, trust me, you will be a multi-billionaire!

The thinking that most people have in their minds is that "Disability won't happen to me. Can't be so suay!" No one likes to discuss such unfortunate and depressing issue so they rather push it away or think it will never happen to them.

But insurance being insurance, it's not about the unlikely chance of it happening to any of us. Rather, the question is, What if it REALLY did happen? When accidents or illnesses happen, no one expects it.

The young girl I mentioned earlier is fun-loving, pretty (easily can get many boyfriends type), but her life changed completely because of that one accident. It's a sad story. But it did happen.

 

[autumnsil]

I also thought that term after 65 was expensive. But please see the other thread on Tokio Marine's Term to 99. It actually appears affordable much to my surprise. You also know the commission for agent is very low so the only people discussing it are regular forummers and no agents. Whereas here when people mention enhanced Eldershield, all the agents appear. What you can do it buy 2 term policies, maybe 250k to 65, and 250k to 99 (plus whatever CI rider till 65)

I briefly read about TM Term to 99 and also went to their website. Sounds good overall for CI and death. But it is stated there Total Permanent Disability (TPD) is covered till 70 only. There is a Guaranteed Renewal Plan that can extend the Term to 75,85, 99 years old. But I am not sure if it specifically extends coverage for TPD also. I would assume it won't be cheap if it can do so.

 

[NiteX2]

I briefly read about TM Term to 99 and also went to their website. Sounds good overall for CI and death. But it is stated there Total Permanent Disability (TPD) is covered till 70 only. There is a Guaranteed Renewal Plan that can extend the Term to 75,85, 99 years old. But I am not sure if it specifically extends coverage for TPD also. I would assume it won't be cheap if it can do so.

Tpd covers till age 70 only even if you have bought term till 99.

 

[whitesand]

whitesand: Actually, what you mentioned is the reason I often hear people reject Eldershield completely. But even though it may not be claimable if an aid can be used, I think we should not over-read it.

Then have that "even with the help of special equipment and constant assistance" wording removed.

1. I did post this removal proposal or made a special provision to them. They come back after later and say cannot.

2. I did not caught the poor fella off guard. When I asked them, they cannot answer me immediately, but promised to come back to me later after they checked. They DID come back, but sadly, my interpretation/over-reading is correct. One of them (cannot remember is GE or NTUC) is only willing to "off the record, consider it in case by case basis; but no way in writing." I have no faith with that, from my experience with various type insurance claim.

A friend's father had brain cancer which after operation, left him unable to care for himself. Can't dress, eat or move his body. He is wheelchair bound. Yes, he could claim his Eldershield easily. No hassle.

You are sure that it is Eldershield they claimed? Not under other different insurance / assistance scheme? If so, which insurance company?

Case 2: A young girl I know met with an unfortunate and UNEXPECTED road accident which left her paralysed waist down. She had physiotherapy, can still move her hands but weakly. In summary, she cannot do at least 3 of the ADLs specified in Eldershield and requires external care. Of course, she is too young to buy or claim Eldershield. But if she is past 40, I am very sure she can claim it.

This is not a real case, but just your opinion.

 

[autumnsil]

Then have that "even with the help of special equipment and constant assistance" wording removed.

1. I did post this removal proposal or made a special provision to them. They come back after later and say cannot.

2. I did not caught the poor fella off guard. When I asked them, they cannot answer me immediately, but promised to come back to me later after they checked. They DID come back, but sadly, my interpretation/over-reading is correct. One of them (cannot remember is GE or NTUC) is only willing to "off the record, consider it in case by case basis; but no way in writing." I have no faith with that, from my experience with various type insurance claim.

You are sure that it is Eldershield they claimed? Not under other different insurance / assistance scheme? If so, which insurance company?

This is not a real case, but just your opinion.

I can understand why they cannot remove the "special equipment and constant assistance". There will be too many old people who require wheelchairs, walking sticks and even some form of aids like prosthesis for those who have their limbs amputated. If they remove the clause, then Eldershield is not so much an insurance any more but a scheme to help the elderly, which is of course not the aim of it in the first place.

(I remember some countries overseas can even provide money to their citizens to buy wheelchairs if they need them. I am sure many of us wish we could have this sort of government also. But too bad, Singapore is not a welfare state and we have to work and take care of ourselves.)

I think the insurance companies won't want to take such responsibility in black and white as it is hard to generalize. Definitely they will go on a case by case basis.

But like I said, the "millionaire $ special machines" you were inferring to them is too far-fetched in the near future. If you are still not convinced, you may go read up on how the human body becomes paralysed and the mechanics of being disabled. Can also talk to your doctor to find out if the hypothetical machine you have in mind can ever exist.

I am sure my friend's father claimed using Eldershield. I just asked him last week. The topic came up when my friend received the Eldershield letter for himself. Why should his father not be able to claim when he really cannot perform at least 3 out of the 6 ADLs? It's not a scam.

On the last point, if the person cannot do at least 2 or 3 ADLs, as I saw it with my own eyes, I don't see why Eldershield is not claimable at 40 years old and above. Anyway, my point in that example is mainly to show accidents can happen to anyone.

I can see where you are coming from with the skepticism. A person has to be in a bad state to claim Eldershield. Which may explain why it is not the case where many elderly will qualify for it. The payout is also not fantastic but at least it does help to ease whatever burden.

Still, like I said, that disabled state can happen to anyone. If it is not due to accident, then it could be due to illnesses, where the probability increases as one ages.

Life here ain't easy with rising costs and we have to pay and pay for many things, insurance included. The least we want to experience is something bad happening to us. But it can.

 

[autumnsil]

Tpd covers till age 70 only even if you have bought term till 99.

Thanks for the info.

Yup, then there is no cover from 70 onwards for severe disability. Eldershield is the ONLY one so far, I believe.

 

[tiny]

autumnsil, I think what user whitesand meant is that hypothetically your friend being able to claim IF she is after 40 years old + had bought Eldershield is not REAL since it did not happened in reality. Thus we cannot assume the claim will pass through.

 

[terryhoho]

After reading through. I feel this policy is clear cut claimable for these 2 people only
1. 植物人 (brain dead)
2. 2 side stroke (unable to move 4 limbs)

Not easy.

 

[Opps-gal]

If knock by escooters or ebikes, maybe can claim if victims become cannot move?

 

[crimsontactics]

People should stop looking at the payout by itself...

Instead, they should look at the cost-to-payout ratio...

You can't expect awesome payouts if you are only paying peanuts...

I don't think that there are any better eldershield type of insurance in the private market...

People who know of such please share your lobangs here...

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