Elgato HD60 S review

wwenze

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Random talk and blah

So Razer Ripsaw didn't work out for me. (My review) And I still need a low-latency USB capture card (which implies USB 3.0).

I even reconsidered the questionable AGPtek, but as I did more digging (and find more people confirming the poor quality issue), I found hints by the manufacturer that it may not be a low-latency capture card, and by hints I mean instructions from the seller to add latency compensation to synchronize the audio and video. Well, it could be like those random sellers who have limited knowledge of what they are selling, but this would actually explain why the image quality is horrible for 60 FPS - It is compressed video - and this would actually explain why this capture card is compatible with USB 2.0 ports (or so it is claimed by some sellers) - the USB 3.0 mode allows higher bitrate, but is not used for lossless raw transfer - pure USB 3.0 cards like Avermedia LGX and Elgato HD60 S would just refuse to work with USB 2.0.

So, the only available choices for a proper USB 3.0 capture device are Avermedia LGX / Razer Ripsaw (and also the discontinued U3) and Elgato HD60 S, not counting professional products which cost way more expensive. HD60 S is not cheap either, I mean, 179 USD or 289 SGD. While the competition SRP is not cheaper by much, (and I think the Ripsaw was originally even more expensive, like wtf right) they can often be had for cheaper, while Elgato is eternally expensive. I mean, lowest ever is $119 during Black Friday 2017, and I just bought this refurbished unit for $129 and it is now sold out already. A new unit is currently $159 on Amazon.

Yea, I would have bought the Elgato last Black Friday if there wasn't a second-hand Avermedia U3 tempting me on Carousell. But it was sold before I returned to SG so I rush-bought a Razer Ripsaw instead. And we know how that turned out. The U3 might have had the same issues. Or maybe it might not have, and any problem on the Razer might have been due to Razer's own drivers. But perhaps Razer's drivers are not that different from Avermedia's original. I talk a lot of redundant stuff don't I.

Speaking of these alternatives, remember when the Elgato rep said that HD60 S uses a newer USB chip? I have since then managed to find teardowns of both and the LGX and the HD60 S and both of them use the CYUSB3014

Nice teardown of HD60 S by this guy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ashleyvansteenacker/sets/72157676095851975/

But CYUSB3014 is a generic USB 3.0 interface chip (i.e. not 3.1), so any functionality is implemented by firmware and driver. So it is not wrong to say the HD60 S may perform than than the LGX due to newer firmware. Just that maybe it is hard to explain to the average consumer. I will close one eye to that.

Speaking of the average consumer, you know some owners are saying it has latency? I solved that mystery too - there are sellers on eBay posting "Selling HD60 S" when the photo clearly says HD60 (without the S). So yup, people don't know what they bought. I partially blame Elgato's naming convention though.

One last thing, I used to say that I trust Avermedia more than Elgato, I have since changed my stance on that. Avermedia does have a much longer history of video capturing products, but Elgato is the first one with 4k, so they know their stuff. Because 4k is not easy, and having to use a PCI-E 4x connection shows that.
 
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wwenze

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The first thing I noticed when selecting it in OBS, is that it has support for XRGB format!

I squealed like a little girl.

Edit: I'm going to look through the whole thing one more time to confirm what I have said was correct, because this is a serious allegation.

Edit2: Alright, I'm going to stop the investigation here, because I have not found concluding evidence that shows bad reviewers are bad. Instead I found possible reasons as to why this was not noticed by the reviewers. So I'm going to dial back the tone a bit.

But bottom line is, the difference is real, and this is what you will see when you see OBS's preview vs Elgato Game Capture HD's preview.

Look at the 2 screenshots below.

The first one is a typical result you would get with a typical capture card capturing in the typical YUY2 video format using a typical capturing program (in this case OBS)
https://i.imgur.com/CWQTyQD.png

The second one is Elgato HD60 S capturing in Game Capture HD
https://i.imgur.com/WlhGxIM.png

Notice anything different between them? Specifically, the red circle which shows which song is selected.
GfYuktR.png


This is the result of chroma subsampling. Googling shows multiple webpages with good explanation so I'm just going to link a random one here. But to summarize, chroma subsampling has the most obvious effect on the red color, and in the case of YUY2 which is a 4:2:2 format, you lose half the horizontal resolution. (Previously I incorrectly said you would also lose half the vertical resolution, but I was thinking about the 4:2:0 format. Many video capture cards capture in YUY2 / 4:2:2, it is the video files that are usually 4:2:0 (or technically speaking, it is the encoder's doing).)

And how do we know that it is 4:2:2 subsampling? We just zoom in.
Notice in the left circle, although you can still see the individual pixels, the red content seems to be coming from rectangles of 2x1 pixels, showing it is 4:2:2.

bj4JWXg.png


Reasons why people may have not noticed the difference

Disclaimer: Note that most of this is unofficial speculation. Because trying to get official support for an open-source software is like trying to get official support from people who are working for free. Just look at OBS's official forum if you want to know what I mean. It is also for this reason I did not bother asking them about Razer Ripsaw's stuttering issue.

First, to address why you will not see the difference in the preview of OBS. The most probable explanation I have, is that OBS simply doesn't work properly with HD60 S's settings. As in, even when I selected 29.97fps, I still got 59.94fps. Clicking video settings shows an empty window where the settings should have been, and nothing shows up when I click crossbar. In earlier version of OBS (I used 18.0 at first), the sound doesn't even work. So you know when people mentioned HD60 S's compatibility issues with OBS? Yup.

The second explanation that I have but is only a guess since I can't prove this second explanation if I can't prove if the HD60 S is working properly because of the first point above: From what I could gather, OBS automatically subsamples when doing streaming, and the preview counts as streaming.
There is still some discrepency in this hypothesis. I remember reading that it would resample to NV12 (4:2:0), but the screenshot shows 4:2:2.

But either way, for whatever reason and in whatever way, the end result is still that with OBS, you will get the subsampled picture in the preview, while with Elgato's software you won't. And you can't use Elgato's software without HD60 S. So end of the day, you still need HD60 S to get better quality preview.

Next, to address why you may not see the difference in the output files. And this difference is the abovementioned concluding evidence that I failed to find. As I mentioned, video codecs usually use 4:2:0, but the resulting videos usually don't see such aliasing. This is because modern video codecs (as in DivX and newer) also have in-loop deblocking, and the typical non-deblocked picture is way more blocky than the effect of subsampling that this kind of defect can be repaired without issue. Furthermore the codec knows that the video is subsampled so it probably has even better algos just to reconstruct the original picture based on the subsampled content. Add that to losses in encoding and recovery in the form of deblocking and sharpening, and we get a result that looks like a circle even though the original source should have been subsampled.

The better reviewers (well, better than me) would use computer text and test patterns to prove whether the video is subsampled, but even then it only increases the chance of detection, due to the same reasons. You would see a blurer text, but is that due to subsampling or encoder losses?

And finally, the best method is to just capture lossless and decode lossless. But OBS does not support external codecs (People saying x264 and GPU-accelerated options are good enough yada-yada). I also tried VirtualDub, which has more settings including subsampling, but it ended up with me not understanding if there is any conversion going on. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough, but it was past 1am and I have a day job.

Screenshots... they are lossless and avoid post-processing, but I can't tell whether they are taken from the preview or the actual data. And OBS doesn't have screenshot feature anyway.

So I'm going to leave this mystery to the pros. But bottom line is, typical card in OBS = subsampled preview, HD60 S in Game Capture HD = nice preview.
 
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wwenze

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Audio quality

Something I forgot to mention in Razer Ripsaw review. Yes, this is a strange thing to mention, since we are dealing with digital connections. But with Razer Ripsaw, the sound seems slightly brighter and more screechy, and more painful over long periods. With the H727, the sound is okay I guess. With the HD60 S, compared to H727, the sound sounds... different. More majestic, but hard to tell whether it is overall better or worse.

Digital connections are lossless, but the mixers are not. And these USB capture cards accept analog inputs in parallel to the HDMI input (for the streamers). Who knows what the mixer is doing to the sound. Do I need to run RMAA on these?

Build / operation quality

Not looking glorious. USB Type-C connector can wriggle up and down, and I can't tell whether it is causing disconnection when I do that or is that because of the bundled cable which appears to have been stored for at least years and is starting to turn slightly white. I will hate having to repair the Type-C connector because I have found no guides and it looks like at the minimum a heat gun is needed. Using my own cheapo USB Type-C cable I got a less-wriggly connection and seems to be more reliable too.

That, or the disconnections (accompanied by the "duh-duh" sound in Windows) are caused by the HDMI connection. With so many devices and cabling in my setup, disconnecting one cable can cause the surge to blackout my monitor temporarily. Just that only HD60 S fails to recover and requires reconnecting to the computer. But as always, this kind of thing is hard to diagnose. Seems to at least work without issues if I don't physically touch the setup. Let's hope it lasts.
 

wwenze

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Input latency

As the video above shows, it is one frame faster than H727, which means it is as fast as the Razer Ripsaw, or

3 frames @ 60fps = 50ms

That's two out of two USB 3.0 cards that are faster than my older PCI-E H727. Who has been saying bad things about USB 3.0?

Some trivia: USB 3.0 is as fast as PCI-E gen2 x1

BTW, something I forgot to mention in the Ripsaw review also, the way I measured (using loopback), even if there is next-to-zero latency i.e. I use the recording software to measure the screen, I will still get 1 frame of latency, simply because you can't record a screen before its contents appear, and then you can only update the result on the next refresh. In other words, both USB 3.0 solutions are only two frames slower than the computer screen recording itself.

How long can it capture until it starts to stutter

This is an issue that is hard to judge, because it depends on the system. And even my H727 *may* start to stutter after a long time; sometimes it smoothens itself after a while, but usually I just close and reopen OBS and it will work for a while again.

My criteria is (IMO) very unstrict - Two minutes of no dropped frames. Or the duration of a half-length song.

On my computer, Razer Ripsaw couldn't even do that with reliability. I wrote a review on that.

With the HD60 S, I played a while, then recorded 3 songs, then continued playing a while, and saw no stuttering. My computer may have been working good at that time because this is already longer than how long the H727 usually lasts. However I ran the Ripsaw on a fresh reformat and it still couldn't do it, so HD60 S is already better than the Ripsaw. I consider a pass as matching the H727, but without the H727 stuttering, I may never know. (Or maybe the H727, or rather, the combination of OBS + H727 did not stutter because I was only displaying it on half the screen?) Time will tell, and if I don't update it here, you can assume I didn't come across any major issue. Plus I can't run H727 split-screen with HD60 S for forever; and I need to run 1080p mode too which H727 can't do.
 

wwenze

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(and not really in the market for a capture card)

I'm also not really that in the market for a capture card. I feel that it is a sunset industry, since GPUs and computers can capture themselves way better than most capture cards can, and current-gen consoles can capture themselves too - albeit with some limitation thanks to poor hardware and weak CPU, but this will change with the next generation.

And my H727 is already sufficient for most of my needs. Just no 1080p60 support for PS4. It's just unfortunate that I have an mITX system and the capture card is competing with the GTX 1060 for the PCI-E slot. So I needed a low-latency external solution (that doesn't suck).

If you have additional PCI-E slot to spare (i.e. most people not on mITX, or even mITX people with no gfx card), a PCI-E solution capable of 720p60/1080p30 can be gotten for less than 300 rmb on Taobao.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...2qNiu5O&id=7586162465&ns=1&abbucket=12#detail
https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.31.1c1c65a2qNiu5O&id=526154773731&ns=1&abbucket=12

This one is twice the price at 600 rmb but it has 1080p60
https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?s...n=6f6465d2ea695891a1f511913da137c5&abbucket=9

And if you want an external solution but do not need low latency (and don't require good quality) you can get this for less than 400 rmb
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...Niu5O&id=563789713132&ns=1&abbucket=12#detail

I just happen to need both external and low-latency, so after removing Ripsaw, HD60 S is the only choice available. And it is a premium product that does what it needs to, and you pay a premium price for it.
 

wwenze

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Update on performance:

H727 stuttered, missed a few frames, while HD60 S continued on perfectly.

HD60 S wins

USB 3.0 wins PCI-E for performance reliability

Behavior with HDCP sources

Well, this one, nothing can beat the China products.

The Elgato, like most* Avermedia products, cannot record HDCP content, but will happily display it in its own software. If you use a third-party software i.e. OBS, you get nothing. Which is irritating, because you don't know where the problem is. H727 plays audio with a black screen, while Ripsaw/LGX displays an error message.

*Seems like some newer products just don't have HDCP support?

Because the Avermedia hardware can actually support HDCP - they just don't let you record it - hackers have created hacks to Avermedia's software to allow them HDCP recording. This is possible up until the earlier versions of RECentral; newer versions have not been cracked yet. Not that there is a real need to, because see my opinion in previous post.

Elgato... don't think any such hack exists. But it's ok, I have found my solution.

Software

The AVer MediaCenter of H727 has very limited options to choose.

Game Capture HD?

You can't even choose.

QRhSPCG.png


Well I gotta say though, it is functional. The interface contains enough things to get started easily. Many users don't touch most of the advanced settings so might as well give them one setting that works. But painful for people who do touch the not-even-so-advanced settings. Can I at least be able to select audio bitrate?

Y78ZDwK.png


It shows a "REC" logo when it is recording, and I like that. In fact, most software do that. Except OBS. Which is irritating. Like seriously, why.

I don't like how it enters/exits fullscreen mode. More people should follow the OBS/MPC-HC double-click to toggle fullscreen as and when you like.

Where Game Capture HD falls short, is the performance.

- Even when simply previewing the video, it counts as it is encoding. I understand that this does not matter if you are recording (or doing that always-record thing for instant play), but can I not waste processing power when I am just displaying the video?

- It is not fast enough, even with a GTX 1060 using NVENC I get lag. And it is processing power related because it is completely smooth at 720p60. Speaking of insufficient processing power, HD 530 can't handle 720p60, you have better results with using a quad-core CPU.
Anyway, it cannot handle 1080p60. Which is weird, because with ShadowPlay the GTX 1060 handles 1080p60 easily with no lag and nearly no framerate loss during gaming.

I suspect this might be video format related. You know, YUV, RGB. Because if I use RGB in OBS, I also get a performance hit. Although not this severe. Then again the RGB in OBS doesn't work properly so...
***See update***

So I am once again forced to use OBS and YUV 4:2:2. I know, despite all my hoo haa above. But this RGB lag in OBS is not encoding power related, it feels more like the lag with Razer Ripsaw, with the drop-1-frame-every-5-frames thing.

And once everything has been set up properly, it works properly.



This is with NVENC CQP 17. The card can handle higher, but this is 800MB for 2 minutes. Which is just(?) 50mbps actually. I go higher for temp files, but this is just nice for uploading and slightly high for archiving.

The original file
http://www.mediafire.com/file/hqcv1n60xwgg9gp/HD60 S capture my song PS4.mkv

Conclusion

It works. Just as it is needed to. Razer Ripsaw didn't.
 
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wwenze

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***Update on Game Capture HD performance***

Fixed a problem between keyboard and chair. (It is always between keyboard and chair.) 1080p60 encoding performance with GTX 1060 is working okay now. (Or so I hope)



More detail on the problem

My PCI-E link speed was set to 2x because of bad contact at the PCI-E slot. Cleaning it got the speed back to 16x @ gen3.

I also increased my system RAM speed to 1866 just in case. Or rather, I thought it was RAM speed so I increased it then found via CPU-Z that the PCI-E link speed was broken.

And this investigation first started when I was comparing H/W-accelerated video decoding CPU/GPU usage and found DXVA2 (copy-back) to consume more than double the processing power compared to DXVA2 (native) and CUVID (which is IMO the best)

Explanation

With DXVA2 (native) (and possibly CUVID too, just a guess), the data decoded by the card is outputted straight by the card - in other words, the decoded data stays on the card. With DXVA2 (copy-back), the decoded data goes back to system memory where you can do all your CPU-based filters and etc. This is the reason why lots of filters don't work with DXVA2 (native) - remember the earlier implementations of DXVA don't even have subtitles support?

A 1080p60 24-bit uncompressed video takes lots of bandwidth however - nearly 3 Gbps. I forgot at which PCI-E generation the computer negotiated the 2x, but if it was gen 1, then 2x would mean 5 Gbps or just as much as USB 3.0. Point is, the raw video data was dangerously close to the theoretical link speed, and with overhead and stuff (like lack of optimization), it wouldn't be surprising if the PCI-E bus couldn't keep up.

This helps to also explain why ShadowPlay was not lagging while Game Capture HD was - raw data stays on the card like DXVA2 (native)

But why did OBS not lag though?

I have no idea lol. (Although maybe because could be indeed the RGB vs YUV 4:2:2 thing? 4:2:2 takes 33% less bandwidth than un-subsampled.)

But, oh well. If you have GPU encoding speed lagging in Game Capture HD, check your PCI-E link speed and maybe also check your RAM.

Started with this, and now 20 years later we're here. Video encoding has never been straightforward, although it has become much easier today, but still lots of problems. This whole thing reminded me of how my Pentium II @ 133fsb/466cpu was faster at MPEG-4 decoding than a Pentium III @ 100fps/450cpu because of RAM speed.

VJWpEWf.jpg
 
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