Endowus vs FSM (Unit Trust)

[sohguanh]

Someone hint I like to hijack other ppl thread so I create a new one now. Below are purely my own opinion so if absolutely disagree it is ok as it is for sharing. You are welcome not to read if feel outraged.

Endowus CPF 0.4%(multi-fund), 0.3%(single fund) vs FSM 0%
Endowus 0.3%(single fund) vs FSM quarterly equities funds 0.0875% first 300k, 0.05% next 300k, 0% 500k., income funds is at 0.05%
Endowus Cash Smart 0.05% vs FSM equivalent auto-sweep 0.2%
Endowus most funds are dividend reinvested vs FSM for cash got option to choose get monies or reinvested
Endowus income portfolio min. 10K fees varies from 0.6% to 0.25%
FSM diamond tier 500k 0%

So I will suggest Endowus for below features (cash,SRS monies) as it is competitive
- Endowus Cash Smart
- Endowus Fund Smart (1 fund portfolio)

Factors to consider
- If someone is already at FSM gold,diamond tier with even lower or zero fees, it is individual choice to still go for Endowus (1 fund portfolio).
- Endowus has some funds not offered in FSM.
- Endowus most funds are dividends reinvested (does not apply for investor going for growth)

Lastly, Endowus advised portfolio vs FSM managed portfolio. I have no experience in both so I never compare. I am more of a DIY investor in UT.

 

[limster]

To repeat what I posted earlier:

I agree. I am paying nett 0.3-0.4% extra annually on trailer fees vs Endowus 0.3% flat and no trailer fee by remaining with FSMOne for CPF. I guess have to see if Endowus has any transfer-in promo?

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...te-lowest-in-sg.6572308/page-2#post-135982184
As you can see from the thread title "endowus fee dropped to negative"

Endowus is the cheapest for 95% of funds (notable exception Lionglobal All Seasons). If someone just starting unit trusts were to ask for my recommendation, it would definitely be Endowus.

I am on FSMOne and paying extra 0.3-0.4% every year for my First State unit trusts if I remain on FSMOne vs Endowus.

However, the difference is not so big as to make me want to switch because there might be costs involved unless there is some transfer-in promo. Also, nothing from preventing FSMOne from lowering their charges to match Endowus... competition is good.

 

[karakorum1999]

I thought that for cash investments into UT, one normally recommends a “zero-fee” platform like Poems or Dollardex? I mean, rather than FSMone. Unless it’s preference to have all investments consolidated..

There are other good reasons for using Endowus e.g. if using SRS, and also with single fund and trailer fee rebate, some UTs are competitive, or to have access to Dimensional Funds etc.

I am using FSMobe for stocks/etf only, and mostly with SRS and some cash (that was before I started using other brokers like Tiger).

Hope I’m not confused.. or missing something..

 

[Andrew833]

Someone hint I like to hijack other ppl thread so I create a new one now. Below are purely my own opinion so if absolutely disagree it is ok as it is for sharing. You are welcome not to read if feel outraged.

Endowus CPF 0.4%(multi-fund), 0.3%(single fund) vs FSM 0%
Endowus 0.3%(single fund) vs FSM quarterly equities funds 0.0875% first 300k, 0.05% next 300k, 0% 500k., income funds is at 0.05%
Endowus Cash Smart 0.05% vs FSM equivalent auto-sweep 0.2%
Endowus most funds are dividend reinvested vs FSM for cash got option to choose get monies or reinvested
Endowus income portfolio min. 10K fees varies from 0.6% to 0.25%
FSM diamond tier 500k 0%

So I will suggest Endowus for below features (cash,SRS monies) as it is competitive
- Endowus Cash Smart
- Endowus Fund Smart (1 fund portfolio)

Factors to consider
- If someone is already at FSM gold,diamond tier with even lower or zero fees, it is individual choice to still go for Endowus (1 fund portfolio).
- Endowus has some funds not offered in FSM.
- Endowus most funds are dividends reinvested (does not apply for investor going for growth)

Lastly, Endowus advised portfolio vs FSM managed portfolio. I have no experience in both so I never compare. I am more of a DIY investor in UT.

You are more on the 1 sided story.
I personally compare UT with Endowus, FSM1 and Poems. Endowus is the cheapest for beginner investor.

If want to compare, don't compare with FSM diamond tier or whatever tier.

 

[sohguanh]

To repeat what I posted earlier:


https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...te-lowest-in-sg.6572308/page-2#post-135982184
As you can see from the thread title "endowus fee dropped to negative"

Endowus is the cheapest for 95% of funds (notable exception Lionglobal All Seasons). If someone just starting unit trusts were to ask for my recommendation, it would definitely be Endowus.

I am on FSMOne and paying extra 0.3-0.4% every year for my First State unit trusts if I remain on FSMOne vs Endowus.

However, the difference is not so big as to make me want to switch because there might be costs involved unless there is some transfer-in promo. Also, nothing from preventing FSMOne from lowering their charges to match Endowus... competition is good.

Hi in my first post I am referring to the quarterly fee between Endowus and FSM. You are referring to trailer fee rebate. Can you explain what do you mean by you pay extra 0.3-0.4% ? Are you referring to the quarterly fee?

Why I compare quarterly fee is because from the monthly statement it is shown. In my first post I have mentioned there are benefits of using Endowus for certain feature e.g Cash Smart. But if say I am already gold or diamond tier in FSM with even lower or reach 0 quarterly platform fee the only time I go for Endowus 1 fund portfolio is when that fund is not available in FSM.

Don't know about each investor but some UT investors are looking for dividend paid out fund on top of growth funds and FSM has more. For Endowus you can have the equivalent with Income portfolio but that minimum is 10K.

So I lay down the difference let readers decide. I never say Endowus or FSM is good. I just say based on what I know and based on each investor fancy.

 

[sohguanh]

You are more on the 1 sided story.
I personally compare UT with Endowus, FSM1 and Poems. Endowus is the cheapest for beginner investor.

If want to compare, don't compare with FSM diamond tier or whatever tier.

That is why I listed down all the info. If it is a newbie of cuz may not reach gold or diamond tier in FSM. But if it is a person with alot of capital it doesn't hurt to know there are differences between Endowus and FSM

 

[sohguanh]

I thought that for cash investments into UT, one normally recommends a “zero-fee” platform like Poems or Dollardex? I mean, rather than FSMone. Unless it’s preference to have all investments consolidated..

There are other good reasons for using Endowus e.g. if using SRS, and also with single fund and trailer fee rebate, some UTs are competitive, or to have access to Dimensional Funds etc.

I am using FSMobe for stocks/etf only, and mostly with SRS and some cash (that was before I started using other brokers like Tiger).

Hope I’m not confused.. or missing something..

Actually using FSM for stocks/etf quite expensive fees if you look around.

As for dollarDex the funds are too limited. POEMS indeed ok but still funds not as many as FSM. So I would say POEMS is a close competitor. But in terms of UT articles and online tools FSM is good. In fact I use FSM tools do my comparison and then go hunt the fund in other platform to buy (e.g stock/ETF)

SRS are lumped together as cash investment so 1 fund portfolio which I mention at 0.3% is competitive. But if the investor is already at gold,diamond tier in FSM then it is more. But selling point in Endowus is some fund they have is not available in FSM.

For UT newbie go for Endowus 1 fund portfolio is most competitive for SRS, cash.

All CPF investment FSM still best.

 

[Jose8802]

Thank you for sharing i think the info here is very useful.

 

[sohguanh]

Thank you for sharing i think the info here is very useful.

Finally someone agree I am doing something right. Did I promote on Endowus or FSM solely? No I just compare the differences and let readers decide. I think I am quite neutral here unlike some posters who claim I am 1 sided story.

 

[s0crates]

You didn't take into account trailer fee rebates. That's the main point about using Endowus over FSM. And that is why Endowus is a better option for cpf except for the few funds that have very very low trailer fees.

This fund selection tool (which they improve over a few times) is quite slick and helps compare across different funds in terms of returns, holdings, top exposure etc.

https://endowus.com/investment-funds-list

 

[sohguanh]

You didn't take into account trailer fee rebates. That's the main point about using Endowus over FSM. And that is why Endowus is a better option for cpf except for the few funds that have very very low trailer fees.

This fund selection tool (which they improve over a few times) is quite slick and helps compare across different funds in terms of returns, holdings, top exposure etc.

https://endowus.com/investment-funds-list

You can highlight the trailer fee rebates in my thread it is ok. I am talking about the quarterly fee instead. Lay down all the info and let all the readers make their own decision.

The url you put is for fund selection tool. Take a look at FSM Chart Center function (used for comparison graphically) besides Fund Selector.

 

[sohguanh]

Forget to add on to reach FSM diamond tier of 500K they count based on all your cpf, cash and beneficiary account. The beneficiary account can be your spouse or children. So if your spouse is working have an income and a passive investor kind, you actually have 2 times cash to try hit the 500k and not on one person solo effort.

https://secure.fundsupermart.com/fs...er-with-0-ut-platform-fee-for-diamond-clients
But if you are young just started work agree hard to hit diamond tier then Endowus 1 fund portfolio is the best competitive so far. Or can explore dollarDex (limited fund choices) and poems (the next best is this I recommend but take note poems initially started off as stock trading contra, shorting, cfd etc only later they also do UT business unlike FSM started off as UT) like what others have mentioned.

 

[sohguanh]

Regarding the fund return numbers in FSM they have more info like Offer-To-Bid, Bid-To-Bid and I compare with Endowus numbers theirs always a bit higher more closer to Bid-To-Bid. Not saying Endowus is wrong as they could be using a different formula underneath but just a point to note.

So for me I kiasu I will see both Endowus and FSM return numbers and take the lowest number returns for that fund. Why? Because I want to know how worst the fund can perform. Unorthodox not sure but that is my style.

From the webpage for Offer-To-Bid
The performance figures in the table above are calculated using offer-to-bid prices, with any income or dividends reinvested. Performance figures of over 1 year are annualised. (Eg. A 33.1% gain in 3 years works out to a 10% gain per year when annualised.) As per MAS regulations, the offer price is based on the normal sales charge which is higher than Fundsupermart's discounted sales charge.

This means the return numbers I assume with normal sales charge (typically 5% charged by banks last time now I not sure) applied so it should reflect lower number value that is what I mean the worst the fund can perform. Any numbers that is above that will be a bonus.

 

[limster]

Endowus is cheaper than FSMOne Diamond Tier by 0.3%-0.4% a year. This is simple maths. If you consider FSMone as 0%, then Endowus is negative. Maybe those that don't understand can read this thread I linked to earlier ( as the thread title says "endowus fee dropped to negative". I don't know how to make it clearer than that.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...te-lowest-in-sg.6572308/page-2#post-135982184

If you have $100,000 portfolio in FSMOne, you are paying $300-$400 extra every year compared to Endowus. My 6-figure CPF unit trust portfolio has been with FSMOne for many years so I have got pretty good capital gain already... but after Endowus announced this, I do feel the pain, but CPF a bit of a hassle to transfer.... just hope FSMOne will react to Endowus by going negative as well

 

[sohguanh]

Endowus is cheaper than FSMOne Diamond Tier by 0.3%-0.4% a year. This is simple maths. If you consider FSMone as 0%, then Endowus is negative. Maybe those that don't understand can read this thread I linked to earlier ( as the thread title says "endowus fee dropped to negative". I don't know how to make it clearer than that.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...te-lowest-in-sg.6572308/page-2#post-135982184

If you have $100,000 portfolio in FSMOne, you are paying $300-$400 extra every year compared to Endowus. My 6-figure CPF unit trust portfolio has been with FSMOne for many years so I have got pretty good capital gain already... but after Endowus announced this, I do feel the pain, but CPF a bit of a hassle to transfer.... just hope FSMOne will react to Endowus by going negative as well

You keep saying "Endowus is cheaper than FSMOne Diamond Tier by 0.3%-0.4% a year." This is based on what? Platform fee? I understand this is a forum so I shall not ask you any further as it could be sensitive for you to reveal your holdings. Let the readers be the judge.

Thanks for sharing your this info "cheaper by 0.3%-0.4%". Appreciated.

 

[limster]

You keep saying "Endowus is cheaper than FSMOne Diamond Tier by 0.3%-0.4% a year." This is based on what? Platform fee? I understand this is a forum so I shall not ask you any further as it could be sensitive for you to reveal your holdings. Let the readers be the judge.

Thanks for sharing your this info "cheaper by 0.35-0.4%". Appreciated.

Read the thread I linked to that says Endowus fee is negative. After you read the thread, anything you don't understand, you can ask here.

To me its simple maths that Endowus is cheaper.
FSMOne Diamond: 0%
Endowus: Negative for 95% of funds (typically 0.3-0.4% but could be higher)

 

[sohguanh]

Read the thread I linked to that says Endowus fee is negative. After you read the thread, anything you don't understand, you can ask here.

To me its simple maths that Endowus is cheaper.
FSMOne Diamond: 0%
Endowus: Negative for 95% of funds (typically 0.3-0.4% but could be higher)

Can you explain your 0.3-0.4% are referring to which portion? Is it the quarterly platform fee? Since you are in that thread you should know the answer but instead you ask me to scroll past so many post just to find the answer myself. Not that I don't want to do but I think I will stop engaging as my times can be better spent elsewhere. Next year 2022 once start work again I will be very busy with my work and have no time to do all this rebalancing etc research investment stuff again.

 

[limster]

Since you are in that thread you should know the answer but instead you ask me to scroll past so many post just to find the answer myself. Not that I don't want to do but I think I will stop engaging as my times can be better spent elsewhere.

You are just showing everyone that you put in so little effort in doing your research before posting your 'analysis'.

It seems like you didn't even bother to read the Endowus website before posting or even the thread I linked to discussing the 'negative fees'.

https://endowus.com/pricing

 

[Andrew833]

You are just showing everyone that you put in so little effort in doing your research before posting your 'analysis'.

It seems like you didn't even bother to read the Endowus website before posting or even the thread I linked to discussing the 'negative fees'.

https://endowus.com/pricing

That's why someone in another thread said he is hard selling FSM1

 

[sohguanh]

Regarding the numbers I use one fund as e.g
It seem Endowus is showing the Bid-To-Bid returns and this usually reflect higher numbers than Offer-To-Bid returns. I have checked a few funds and it is the same behavoir. Not sure but I always look at Offer-To-Bid section ignoring the Bid-To-Bid. Can anyone share the difference between Offer-To-Bid vs Bid-To-Bid ? I have googled but seem not able to get the difference. Pardon my ignorance.

Endowus Numbers
FSSA Dividend Advantage Fund
-2.75% 6m
+4.67% 1 YR
+12.91% 3 YR
+12.00% 5 YR

FSM Numbers
Offer-To-Bid
-0.6% 1 YR
7.4% 2 YR
11.0% 3 YR
7.0% 4 YR
10.9% 5 YR
10.2% 10 YR

Bid-To-Bid
0.25% 1 WK
-3.96% 1 MTH
-2.99% 3 MTH
-2.75% 6 MTH
2.69% YTD
4.67% 1 YR
10.18% 2 YR
12.90% 3 YR
12.00% 5 YR
10.78% 10 YR