Five changes to CPF rules

eAtNeAt

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Group 1 can still opt for CPF LIFE as late as about age 79.9 if they wish -- and they might want to now! There's a little more incentive to opt for CPF LIFE given another, separate rule change: the CPF Board will start automatically paying out their residual SA and OA balances once they exhaust their RAs. Some people in Group 1 might not like that (for bequest reasons perhaps), but if they switch to CPF LIFE then SA/OA automatic payouts don't happen. Even if the CPF LIFE payout is $1/month, oddly enough that's enough to stop SA/OA automatic payouts. Go figure. :) But the deadline to enroll in CPF LIFE is about age 79.9 or maybe 79.8.

Mind explaining why someone nearing 80 would want to opt for cpf life given that their runway will be short. Wouldn't it be better to stay in rss and make the 4-6%?
 

zoneguard

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Mind explaining why someone nearing 80 would want to opt for cpf life given that their runway will be short. Wouldn't it be better to stay in rss and make the 4-6%?
The reason given was to stop the start of payout from OSA once RA is exhausted for those on RSS? So to stop this, convert to CPF LIFE?

There's a far simpler complicated way to stop this automatic OSA payout stream - make sure RA never drop to zero the payout minimum. You can top-up $1 even to achieve the same.
 
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ExEngineer

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Very helpful thread going here.
My takeaways up to now…

1. The new changes are a step in the “right” direction (qualitatively, philosophically…etc) for the majority of cases, broader population etc.

2. Tied to #1, I have not heard or read of any “downsides” of the new changes vs the current system, even for specific/unique situations. So that’s a win all round.

3. There are certain edge/minority-cases where relatively comfortable/wealthy people will benefit financially from the changes - particularly in the area of tax relief for high-income-earners (I will count myself here).
Presumably this is not the intent/objective of the changes ie the goal is to improve outcomes and incentives for the broader population, and the “helps for *rich* people” is a somewhat unintended side effect.
In that sense, any “unintended/unnecessary” positive impact for those individual niche cases is in a sense a “loss” in terms of tax revenue: Presumably also it would be possible to design even further refinements such that the macro/broad benefits are delivered, without these “leakages”/loopholes that make things better for already-wealthy people - but doing so would incur further burdens in terms of complexity (see #4), or violate some unspoken meritocratic/capitalistic/ philosophical principle/desire to avoid “hurting” people who are ebetter-off vs the broader population.

4. To say that the changes are a “simplification” is extremely subjective & a glass-half-full/empty question.
Do the changes “simplify” the various CPF schemes and rules which have grown way to complicated? ….YES!
Is CPF still waaay too complicated (even for a financially-savvy population ie the readers of this forum..let alone aunties/uncles/boomers/noobs)? YESYESYES!!!!
 
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BBCWatcher

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The reason given was to stop the start of payout from OSA once RA is exhausted for those on RSS? So to stop this, convert to CPF LIFE?

There's a far simpler way to stop this automatic OSA payout stream - make sure RA never drop to zero. You can top-up $1 even to achieve the same.
It's another approach, but it's not simpler much less far simpler. Joining CPF LIFE gets this particular job done via a one time act that requires zero additional dollars. And even a de minimus CPF LIFE payout amount is enough for these purposes. Topping up a RA to keep a classic RSS payout stream going can require multiple top ups with significant additional cash required. (Classic RSS has some "interesting" minimum payout amount and maximum payout term features that are not helpful for this mission.)
 

zoneguard

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joining CPF LIFE gets this particular job done via a one time act that requires zero additional dollars. And even a de minimus CPF LIFE payout amount is enough for these purposes. Topping up a RA to keep a classic RSS payout stream going can require multiple top ups with significant additional cash required. (Classic RSS has some "interesting" minimum payout amount and maximum payout term features that are not helpful for this mission.)

The exact mechanics won't be zero RA as the updated FAQ shows. Anyway RSS conversion to CPF LIFE is irreversible whereas this cash injection preserves RSS and all the benefits of that scheme. Members on RSS can evaluate the merits of doing so without triggering the OSA payout stream vs the inconvenience of monitoring the RA balance against the monthly payout.
 

articland05

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so if I alrdy did a 3k topup to medisave in Jan 2021 this yr how much can I still topup to SA for max 2022 tax relief?

issit still 7k as per old rules or 5k (8k - 3k) as per new rules?


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BBCWatcher

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The exact mechanics won't be zero RA as the updated FAQ shows.
Right, that FAQ is hinting at why conventional RA top ups are definitely not simpler for these purposes.

You claimed preservation of OA and SA is simpler with RA top ups versus an age 79 switch to CPF LIFE. That's just not correct; that's the part I'm objecting to. A flip to CPF LIFE is a one-time act at age 79 (or before) using whatever is left in RA (even $500 would be plenty) with no additional dollars required. That's simple! (Hard to imagine anything simpler.) RA with classic RSS is downright complicated if you're trying to keep all OA and SA dollars in place under this new rule. You have to top up at the right time (which requires more cash), and $1 won't even come close to doing it because of $250/month minimum issues. There are also maximum payout term issues that come into play if you simply live long enough, and once you pass age 79.9 you're stuck with all this complexity.
 

BBCWatcher

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so if I alrdy did a 3k topup to medisave in Jan 2021 this yr how much can I still topup to SA for max 2022 tax relief?
issit still 7k as per old rules or 5k (8k - 3k) as per new rules?
Still $7,000 since it's still 2021. November 29 via PayNow QR would be just fine, unless you're very close to the FRS and trying to beat a compulsory contribution from the October payroll cycle. In that event use PayNow QR a couple days before your compulsory contribution hits.

You also have a separate $7,000 tax relief opportunity when you top up an eligible family member's SA or RA in 2021. And that separate $7,000 opportunity can be split, e.g. $3,000 to parent A's RA and $4,000 to parent B's SA.
 

articland05

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Still $7,000 since it's still 2021. November 29 via PayNow QR would be just fine, unless you're very close to the FRS and trying to beat a compulsory contribution from the October payroll cycle. In that event use PayNow QR a couple days before your compulsory contribution hits.
You also have a separate $7,000 tax relief opportunity when you top up an eligible family member's SA or RA in 2021. And that separate $7,000 opportunity can be split, e.g. $3,000 to parent A's RA and $4,000 to parent B's SA.

thanks! I also thought shld be still 7k for my scenario


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eAtNeAt

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Thanks zoneguard and bbcwatcher. I'm trying to decide whether to convert my parents rss to cpf life given their age. They are in late 70s. I guess I won't.
 

zoneguard

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I'm trying to decide whether to convert my parents rss to cpf life given their age. They are in late 70s. I guess I won't.
It may make sensible for one of them to stay on RSS and the other to convert to LIFE to cover longevity risk as ladies typically have a longer life expectancy. The lump sum withdrawal from OSA also doesn't go away with this change. There is no mention of any extension of payout duration beyond 90 for RSS even with the change.

Anyway you know your household situation best as they may have other non-CPF assets. I'll leave it to you to do the weighing.
 

panda.jo

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If I read the new rules correctly, CPF MA topups will not be restricted by CPF annual limit? So say on 1st Jan 2022 I top up my MA to the new BHS, even if I hit the CPF annual limit for 2022, the top up will remain in my MA and not refunded to me in 2023? This part isn't very clear though the ST infographics did mention a bit of it.




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toBfair

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First of all, AMPs only apply to current recipients of CPF LIFE monthly payouts. If you haven't started CPF LIFE payouts yet then there are no AMPs. (I'm excluding classic Retirement Sum Scheme participants for purposes of this discussion.)

OK, with that background, the announcement says that RA top ups and inflows from November, 2021 (this month onward) will feed into higher CPF LIFE payouts, not AMPs. Members currently receiving AMPs can still get those particular AMPs that are already in progress. But any dollars added from November 1 (two days ago as I write this, which is all I meant by "retroactive") cannot be paid out as AMPs.

That's my best understanding at this point in time based on what has been published.

That's OK. It's "advanced CPF hackery" that's probably quite silly and really not worth spending time worrying about.

This "sweep" only really matters if your 55th birthday sweep didn't result in a Retirement Account funded to the FRS. Most people reading this forum hopefully will have RAs funded to the FRS on their 55th birthdays.

For those that don't, there's a second sweep that occurs. It used to occur at age 65, and now it'll occur just before CPF LIFE payouts start which could be as late as age 70. I think the government's logic is that plenty of people in this category are still working after their 65th birthdays and still have compulsory contributions streaming into their OA/SA/MA. So a later sweep will sweep more principal dollars into their RAs. All bonus interest is still paid into their RAs. On average this'll result in better funded RAs and thus higher CPF LIFE payouts.

But you're quite right that RA pays 4.0% interest (plus receives all bonus interest), and OA pays 2.5% interest. So the compulsory dollars landing in OA are going to trail behind RA. If you start CPF LIFE payouts at age 65 this won't matter -- the sweep still occurs at the same time. It also doesn't matter among those CPF members who perform "manual" sweeps (transfers from SA/OA, in that order, to their RAs). You can still do that, and hopefully you do it if/when it makes sense. And I think the government is probably correct that the people with "underfunded" RAs (i.e. subject to a second sweep) are probably still working if they aren't starting CPF LIFE payouts at age 65, so deferring the second sweep to payout start will sweep up more dollars, even if those dollars aren't all working as hard as early as they could be. The higher principal outruns the lower interest paid on OA, basically.

It makes logical sense to me. On balance it seems like an improvement, but further improvements are probably possible.

Wow, great question!

Yes, SA flows directly into retirement (RA, CPF LIFE) -- you're quite right about that. So if the sole goal is more/better retirement income security, then SA wins. If your spouse is never going to have compulsory contributions (or highly unlikely to have), then MA overflow considerations and mechanics really never enter into the picture. So I think you would prioritize SA. And you don't necessarily have to limit SA top ups to the $8,000 tax relief limit. If you can afford more then I would probably try hard to get her SA up at least to $60,000 as quickly as possible, and assuming her OA and MA are zero. The reason is that the first $60,000 earns 5.0% interest (4.0% plus bonus interest), and that's really attractive these days.

Bear in mind there are many homemakers spouses that do NOT make you (the other spouse who's making the top up) qualify for tax relief. IRAS's $4,000 income limit is quite strictly defined and includes much more than Singapore taxable income. Check IRAS's Web site for details.

Starting January 1, 2022, you can deposit as much as you want into anybody's MA subject only to the Basic Healthcare Sum (BHS) limit. Before 2022 the CPF Annual Limit also applies, and it applies to the recipient. Let's suppose for example your spouse's MA is currently zero and she will end up with zero contributions to CPF in 2021 that count against the CPF Annual Limit. If you wish you could deposit $37,740 (the whole CPF Annual Limit) directly into her MA today.

This year (2021) only the recipient qualifies for tax relief when there are Voluntary Contributions to MA. There is no separate limit to this tax relief, so in this example your wife would qualify for $37,740 of tax relief. (But since presumably she's in the zero percent tax bracket in Singapore, it's moot. Zero of zero is still zero.) Starting next year (2022) the giver qualifies for MA-related tax relief, if anybody does. And the tax relief will be limited to $8,000 (self) and another $8,000 (eligible family member recipients) with each $8,000 applied to MA+SA+RA (the total).

It's still a little confusing perhaps, so if you're still confused ask a follow up question.

That's right. AMPs are being phased out, except for two groups: (1) classic RSS participants (who can still top up their RAs and get their classic RSS payout bumps), and (2) people already receiving CPF LIFE payouts and AMPs. Group 2 cannot increase/add to their existing AMPs, but they keep receiving existing AMP streams. Group 1 only includes members born before 1958 who have not opted for CPF LIFE.

The younger portion of Group 1 can still opt for CPF LIFE as late as about age 79.9 if they wish -- and they might want to now! There's a little more incentive to opt for CPF LIFE given another, separate rule change: the CPF Board will start automatically paying out their residual SA and OA balances once they exhaust their RAs. Some people in Group 1 might not like that (for bequest reasons perhaps), but if they switch to CPF LIFE then SA/OA automatic payouts don't happen. Even if the CPF LIFE payout is $1/month, oddly enough that's enough to stop SA/OA automatic payouts. Go figure. :) But the deadline to enroll in CPF LIFE is about age 79.9 or maybe 79.8.

Thanks zoneguard and bbcwatcher. I'm trying to decide whether to convert my parents rss to cpf life given their age. They are in late 70s. I guess I won't.
Did your parents opt in a rss payout previously? Mine didn't and just let it hibernated in ra.
 

BBCWatcher

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Did your parents opt in a rss payout previously? Mine didn't and just let it hibernated in ra.
Generally the CPF Board no longer allows members to defer CPF Retirement Account payouts past age 70. The very oldest living CPF cohort might still be allowed to keep RA funds on account without payouts, and the Board might make a short-term exception for those with very low RA balances, but that's about it.

If the CPF Board doesn't have bank details for a member, the payouts land in the member's OA. Some members like it that way, so that's a little "hack" if you're so inclined. Redeposits into RA might also be possible depending on how close the member is to the Enhanced Retirement Sum.
 

reddevil0728

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Generally the CPF Board no longer allows members to defer CPF Retirement Account payouts past age 70. The very oldest living CPF cohort might still be allowed to keep RA funds on account without payouts, and the Board might make a short-term exception for those with very low RA balances, but that's about it.

If the CPF Board doesn't have bank details for a member, the payouts land in the member's OA. Some members like it that way, so that's a little "hack" if you're so inclined. Redeposits into RA might also be possible depending on how close the member is to the Enhanced Retirement Sum.
Is it possible to remove bank account details?
 

Rayleigh1

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Oh wow.. So for those who are not at FRS yet, there is actually a reduction of tax relief one can get due to the changes? Previously, this group can reduce their assessable income by about 3k from annual increase of BHS and another 7k from RA self contribution. Now, it's 8k across both. What a dumb change if this is the case. Argh.. it's not even easier to figure out how much I can contribute.
 
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DioupBartley

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Hi all and especially BBC Watcher who helped me a long way to understand cpf rules when I was a newly minted PR 3 years ago and enjoy significant tax rebates by maxing out my MA. Of course, the new rules will now prevent newly minted PR to enjoy such rebate going forward. But beyond new PR, all cpf savy people who are yet to reach FRS are penalised by this new rule. Since BHS increase every year, the VC to MA will be deducted from the cap of 8k, leaving only maybe around 4k to top up our SA. I am surprised there is no mention of this anywhere online whether on news side or bloggers side… Am I missing something here?
 
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