FRS vs ERS

Mecisteus

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Nothing's really bad about CPF Life except all are forced to take a bet.

For the benefit of the society, I would say CPF Life is a good plan.

If you don't have such a plan, you may end up paying more taxes to take care of the future aging population.
 

BBCWatcher

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For the benefit of the society, I would say CPF Life is a good plan.

If you don't have such a plan, you may end up paying more taxes to take care of the future aging population.
There's no "may" about it: in that alternative you (the median taxpayer) would pay more taxes, guaranteed.

Either most (not all) CPF members are "forced" to defend society against personal risks of elder destitution, or taxpayers are forced to defend elderly individuals against their individual risks. It's one or the other. There is no third option.
 

alwaysbehind

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scientist studied that longevity is also determined by genetics.
if your bloodline hv lives beyond 90yo, congrats and u should know which plan benefits u. Otherwise just choose the one that suits you and enjoy as much as possible. :D
 

romeo88

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About 3 weeks ago, I asked the question at the CPF office. The answer I got was at nearer to 65, need to show proof that I'm getting the alternative annuity, even though I mentioned the specific policy.

A little bit of answer there but a lot more suspense, I guess.

If want definite answer, choose a plan and then ask the board whether that plan is acceptable in lieu of CPFL. Bet there is no current plan in the market that's similar or better than CPFL :s13:
 

romeo88

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Well said. Agreed 100%

For me, I'd rather that I leave all the money in the RA and I manage it myself. The only good thing out of the Life program is I get (gain if you will) to transfer 136k from a 2.5% to 4% bucket and an additional 88k cash to a 4% bucket, plus another 7.5k of cash every year for 10 years (or is it 9?).

The downside is of course the 10-20% to be spent on the insurance for if I live beyond 90 (or 91) which I give myself no more than a 5% chance of ever using it.

With some other unknowns (or risks or uncertainties) along the way, the net is I don't think I'll get to derive any positive value out of the program.

For me, I'd definitely think the Life program is a waste of my time, considering the amount of time and energy I've spent digging into and reading up about it. Still, there are many questions (known and unknown) yet to get clear answers.

Not everyone wins. It is a zero sum game. In fact, if you consider the cost, the majority loses.
 

maple96

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About 3 weeks ago, I asked the question at the CPF office. The answer I got was at nearer to 65, need to show proof that I'm getting the alternative annuity, even though I mentioned the specific policy.

A little bit of answer there but a lot more suspense, I guess.

No need to waste time searching for an alternative pte annuity. "They" already done research in the past, see below:

“These products can also be offered to RA monies through the CPF Board’s Approved Annuity scheme if they meet certain criteria* ; members can use their RA monies to purchase these approved annuities, instead of having their monies committed to CPF LIFE.

* The private sector annuity product must be consistent with some features of CPF LIFE. For example, the annuity payout must be for life, the payout must commence at the payout eligibility age, and the payouts must be level or increasing.

“..that there are no private sector annuity providers who offer their annuity products to CPF monies today. ... understands from its industry consultations that private sector annuity providers have opted not to offer such products primarily because CPF LIFE’s payouts are higher for the same amount of savings committed into the annuity. Hence, the demand for private sector alternative annuities is likely to remain low. “

kelhot2001 - he wrote in to CPF on using pte annuity to exit CPF Life and posted all the replies in one of the thread - all the CPF website FAQ, conditions, requirements, what happens to the RA/CPF Life monies.
 
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maple96

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For me, I'd definitely think the Life program is a waste of my time, considering the amount of time and energy I've spent digging into and reading up about it. Still, there are many questions (known and unknown) yet to get clear answers.

I had spent years of research to find "answers" and I found, not a waste of time depending on what is your focus!

Keep it up!
 

BBCWatcher

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About 3 weeks ago, I asked the question at the CPF office. The answer I got was at nearer to 65, need to show proof that I'm getting the alternative annuity, even though I mentioned the specific policy.
There's some information on what CPF will be looking for in CPF Form RSS/8, the opt-out form. There are some important caveats to mention:

1. You cannot opt out of CPF LIFE and leave funds in your Retirement Account. If you're out, you're out -- including out of attractive 4+% interest that's the baseline for everything in CPF LIFE. For that reason alone (attractive interest) you probably don't want to opt out, or at least you'd wait until just before your 70th birthday.

2. As long as you have a right of abode in Singapore, funds deposited in your Special Account or Retirement Account via the Retirement Sum Topping Up Scheme cannot be withdrawn in a lump sum, even if you opt out of CPF LIFE. They will still stream out as monthly payments.

3. If you lose, surrender, or otherwise have problems with your private annuity or pension not providing you with monthly payments for life, you are required to notify CPF and to make yourself whole again on/with CPF LIFE.

4. If the private annuity or pension offers lower payouts than minimum CPF LIFE, then you'll only be eligible for a partial opt-out.

5. If you have outstanding tax liabilities with IRAS then those will get settled first from your Retirement Account. As far as I know IRAS isn't allowed to dig into CPF LIFE monthly payouts. In other words, tax delinquents probably shouldn't opt out of CPF LIFE.
 

romeo88

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Gee, interesting information you dug out there. Could you provide the source so I can pursue further?

My questions below:

There's some information on what CPF will be looking for in CPF Form RSS/8, the opt-out form. There are some important caveats to mention:

1. You cannot opt out of CPF LIFE and leave funds in your Retirement Account. If you're out, you're out -- including out of attractive 4+% interest that's the baseline for everything in CPF LIFE. For that reason alone (attractive interest) you probably don't want to opt out, or at least you'd wait until just before your 70th birthday.

This is the open question I have in mind but thought I’d pursue it closer to 65. If I’m not allowed to leave the money in RA, does that mean lump sum withdrawal (but your point 2 says otherwise) ?

2. As long as you have a right of abode in Singapore, funds deposited in your Special Account or Retirement Account via the Retirement Sum Topping Up Scheme cannot be withdrawn in a lump sum, even if you opt out of CPF LIFE. They will still stream out as monthly payments.

I supposed SA is not relevant for LIFE. How does RA into monthly payments work ?

3. If you lose, surrender, or otherwise have problems with your private annuity or pension not providing you with monthly payments for life, you are required to notify CPF and to make yourself whole again on/with CPF LIFE.

3 & 4: The private annuity will stream till death much higher than ERS (with top up) gets. So no problem there.

4. If the private annuity or pension offers lower payouts than minimum CPF LIFE, then you'll only be eligible for a partial opt-out.

5. If you have outstanding tax liabilities with IRAS then those will get settled first from your Retirement Account. As far as I know IRAS isn't allowed to dig into CPF LIFE monthly payouts. In other words, tax delinquents probably shouldn't opt out of CPF LIFE.

Tax delinquency not relevant to me. Not following “As far as I know IRAS isn't allowed to dig into CPF LIFE monthly payouts.”
 

romeo88

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Put it simply, at 65, LIFE is 24k pa and the alternative I’ve signed up is 36k (till death), does it qualify for full exemption ? Did I miss anything LIFE provides ?

Do you mean kelhot has a thread on LIFE exemption ?

Thanks, Maple.

No need to waste time searching for an alternative pte annuity. "They" already done research in the past, see below:

“These products can also be offered to RA monies through the CPF Board’s Approved Annuity scheme if they meet certain criteria* ; members can use their RA monies to purchase these approved annuities, instead of having their monies committed to CPF LIFE.

* The private sector annuity product must be consistent with some features of CPF LIFE. For example, the annuity payout must be for life, the payout must commence at the payout eligibility age, and the payouts must be level or increasing.

“..that there are no private sector annuity providers who offer their annuity products to CPF monies today. ... understands from its industry consultations that private sector annuity providers have opted not to offer such products primarily because CPF LIFE’s payouts are higher for the same amount of savings committed into the annuity. Hence, the demand for private sector alternative annuities is likely to remain low. “

kelhot2001 - he wrote in to CPF on using pte annuity to exit CPF Life and posted all the replies in one of the thread - all the CPF website FAQ, conditions, requirements, what happens to the RA/CPF Life monies.
 

maple96

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Put it simply, at 65, LIFE is 24k pa and the alternative I’ve signed up is 36k (till death), does it qualify for full exemption ? Did I miss anything LIFE provides ?

Do you mean kelhot has a thread on LIFE exemption ?

Thanks, Maple.

Yes we had a lengthy discussion on CPF FAQ on how to use pte annuity to apply for exemption and he wrote in for CPFB replies, that's how the other guy dug out the requirements/outcome and posted earlier, he is good at replicating.

Need kelhot to dig out the thread cos I cannot find or remember.

If u research and needs clarification on any matters, just write in and CPFB will reply. That's the best confirmation. I always do that where I cannot get answers I want from CPFB website, cos it is my future!
 
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BBCWatcher

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Gee, interesting information you dug out there. Could you provide the source so I can pursue further?
I already did: go grab a copy of CPF Form RSS/8.

Answering your questions....

If you apply to opt out of CPF LIFE (Form RSS/8), you're required to withdraw all Retirement Account funds that are not attributable to Retirement Sum Topping-Up Scheme funds. Retirement Fund Topping-Up Scheme dollars (plus accrued interest on those dollars) must stay in place and are streamed out as monthly payments -- you cannot opt out of that portion. You have to take more drastic action (terminate your right of abode in Singapore) if you want to withdraw Retirement Sum Topping-Up Scheme dollars. If you didn't make any Retirement Sum Topping-Up Scheme contributions then obviously this distinction doesn't apply.

The private annuity will pay as long as the private annuity provider is able to pay. If it doesn't, for whatever reason, that's your problem, not CPF's. You're then legally required to notify CPF and to make yourself whole again in CPF LIFE. One way you can reduce this particular risk -- a small risk, but a risk -- is to have a couple life annuities from different insurers. Regardless, I'd advise keeping your life annuities (and other insurance products) at or under SDIC coverage limits.
 

kelhot2001

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Hi, wow so much iinformatiin, cant really read now. MIL kenna robbed in JB , just transfer her back Spore. This is only 1 question i post for cpf on private annuties

As usual , got answer like no answer. I ask them where am I , they tell me my location is 1.3521° N, 103.8198° E. Technical not wrong , but i still dont know where am I

Thank you for your enquiries of 3 March 2019.

When members turn 55, they are required to set aside the Full Retirement Sum (FRS) in the Retirement Account (RA) first.

Thereafter, members may apply to be fully exempted from setting aside a Retirement Sum (RS) and withdraw all the RA savings in a lump sum, if they are currently receiving a lifelong monthly annuity payout that is equal to or more than the maximum RS monthly payout applicable to their age group.

The Ordinary, Special and MediSave Account savings will remain in their respective accounts and continue to earn interest.

If members are placed on CPF LIFE but have not been issued a CPF LIFE policy, they will be excluded if they are fully exempted from setting aside a RS. However if they are receiving an annuity payout less than the FRS payout applicable to them, they may only qualify to be partially exempted from a RS and would have to set aside a lower retirement sum.

For more information on exemption, you can click here and select “Exemption from setting aside a retirement sum”.

We would be pleased to help if you require further assistance. For more information on CPF matters, you can also visit www.cpf.gov.sg or call 1800 227 1188 from Monday to Friday, 8am to 5:30pm.

Yours sincerely

Chan Pei Wen
Customer Service Executive
Customer Contact Centre
Central Provident Fund Board
 

maple96

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Could you provide the source so I can pursue further?

U read the FAQ first, below was what I posted before to help K:

Q What should I take note of when applying to be exempted from setting aside a retirement sum in my Retirement Account (RA)?
A
Please note the following when applying for exemption:

- You must be 55 and above to apply for an exemption.
- The use of investment instruments such as endowments and bonds for exemption is not allowed.
- You must be in receipt of the monthly payment from your annuity policy/pension which pays you for as long as you live.
- If an exemption is granted and you surrender or terminate your annuity policy, the retirement sum withdrawn plus the accrued interest have to be refunded to your Retirement Account (RA).
- The annuity policy cannot be pledged for granting you a loan as the Board needs to secure the refund of the retirement sum plus the accrued interest upon termination of the policy.
- You must be both the policy holder and the sole insured person of the annuity policy.
- You can use multiple annuity policies to seek exemption.
- The amount you may withdraw from your RA excludes any monies topped up to your RA under the Retirement Sum Topping-Up Scheme and the interest earned on it.
- Upon exemption, you will not be eligible to receive top-ups under the Retirement Sum Topping-Up Scheme unless you opt to join the CPF LIFE Scheme.
- You cannot choose to only withdraw an amount which is lower than the amount payable to you upon exemption.

U not only look at the mthly payouts > CPF Life payout, u also have to look at the "returns" and if the insurer can survive u.

My little research/reading shows no insurer can beat CPF Life/RA returns. If your can, pls share the insurer and name of policy.

But I will not pursue this route because there are more disadvantages than advantages. But it is your choice.

(note: he can replicate but not always all correct, do your due diligence)

(note highlighted in red, on RA, not SA :s13:)
 

kelhot2001

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Questiom I need to ask

If at 55, i had

RA $90.5K
SA $60.5K
OA $0.00
bhs $57K

Can I ask what is the rate of interest for SA in total is it also 6+5+4
Will my BHS interest goes into SA since not full frs yet
 

henrylbh

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Questiom I need to ask

If at 55, i had

RA $90.5K
SA $60.5K
OA $0.00
bhs $57K

Can I ask what is the rate of interest for SA in total is it also 6+5+4
Will my BHS interest goes into SA since not full frs yet

Interest on -
RA - 6+5+4
SA - 4
OA - 0
MA - 4

Interest on MA in excess of MA goes into RA, if FRS is not met.
Interest on MA in excess of MA goes into OA, if FRS is met.

In addition, government's top-ups to MA will follow above rule.
 
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henrylbh

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No need to waste time searching for an alternative pte annuity.

Completely concur.

Want to be sure of exemption is to dump a large sum into private annuity such that the life payout is more than what CPF Life would pay.
 

henrylbh

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Hi, wow so much iinformatiin, cant really read now. MIL kenna robbed in JB , just transfer her back Spore.

Sorry to hear that. Was she was alone when robbed in JB? Which part of JB?

Many years ago, my BIL was robbed while in the queque to JB immigration check point. He was forced to drive out of the q to some secluded spot and he came back without his car.
 
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