FYI/A: Bufferbloat 101

xiaofan

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More test report of cake-autorate here. I am not so sure I am doing the things correctly here.
https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate/issues/274

@hwzlite

You may be interested in the answers given in the above github link. As per the answers, unfortunately cake-autorate may not be the right answer to sort out wireless related bufferbloat issues. And it is not needed for fixed bandwidth wired connection.

The recommendation seems to use an wireless AP capable of SQM. But that is challenging -- not easy to get an OpenWRT capable wireless router which can do SQM at 1Gbps.
 

hwzlite

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You may be interested in the answers given in the above github link. As per the answers, unfortunately cake-autorate may not be the right answer to sort out wireless related bufferbloat issues. And it is not needed for fixed bandwidth wired connection.

Interesting.... my understanding is cake-autorate (Theory of Operation) is only meant for upstream WAN side that has variable bandwidth connections such as 3G,4G LTE, Starlink, Wifi...., which for your case the upstream is fixed GPON bandwidh. :unsure:

So its ideal config in your test case should be something like this? :
Singtel GPON ONT -- TL-SG105E smart switch -- Asus RT-AX82U AP --wireless -- OpenWRT virtual router WAN ( wireless [pci/usb passthrough] port) ...etc
 

xiaofan

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Interesting.... my understanding is cake-autorate (Theory of Operation) is only meant for upstream WAN side that has variable bandwidth connections such as 3G,4G LTE, Starlink, Wifi...., which for your case the upstream is fixed GPON bandwidh. :unsure:

So its ideal config in your test case should be something like this? :
Singtel GPON ONT -- TL-SG105E smart switch -- Asus RT-AX82U AP --wireless -- OpenWRT virtual router WAN ( wireless [pci/usb passthrough] port) ...etc

Unfortunately there is no OpenWRT virtual router with wireless link in my case. And I am not interested in adding USB or M2 Wireless adapter in the Intel N100 mini PC.

So much for the cake-autorate experiment. But it is kind of interesting. And I get to like crusader better and better.

Still I may want to try the following to see how it goes, just for experiment.
Singtel GPON ONT -- TL-SG105E smart switch -- Asus RT-AX86U Router --wireless link -- Linksys EA7500v2 OpenWRT with cake-autorate (no HW/SW offloading)
 

xiaofan

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Here is the answer from the expert:
https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate/issues/274#issuecomment-2034550854

Assuming your trie internet/WAN delay is well behaved you need a single cake instance per direction to control internet bufferbloat, and then deal with WiFi locally. The problems with WiFi are myriad:
a) WiFi is half duplex, and hence you need to run cake-autorate on all wirelessly connected devices and the AP
b) internet latency targets are unlikely to be ideal for a WiFi traffic shaper and vice versa
c) active measurements even with small ICMP packets waste an airtime slot, so have considerable side effects, especially if you consider a larger set of wifi connected devices...

In short, I would look for an airtime fairness/AQL capable WiFi-AP, that should deal with the AP to station bufferbloat decently. For the other direction you would need to fix the station's WiFi stack somehow... or hope that stations send far less than they receive...


The other answer:
Note that good routers (such as OpenWrt) generally have Wi-Fi drivers that use ATF and AQL (that in turn incorporate fq_codel ) to control the wireless latency (see my post on the OpenWrt forum for details.) These do a good job of keeping the Wi-Fi latency as low as possible.

Since ATF/AQL control the Wi-Fi, it strikes me that there's no need to incorporate it into the overall latency process. That is, I see the Wi-Fi latency as a random perturbation but with limited/constrained effect. A "global optimizer" (rolling all these into one) won't be able to improve the situation.
 
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xiaofan

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Here is a good summary -- but now the question is to find a good one to deal with wireless.
https://forum.openwrt.org/t/how-openwrt-vanquishes-bufferbloat/189381

Basically the idea in 2024 (not to buy AC routers) should be to find good OpenWRT supported AX router using the following two drivers.
  • mt76
  • ath11k
From OpenWRT: majority will be using mt76 driver
https://openwrt.org/toh/views/toh_available_16128_ax-wifi

In the future, ath12k may be the one (WiFi 7) once IPQ95xx and IPQ53xx are supported by OpenWRT.

From the thread.

On Wireless Connections

Since OpenWrt is an access point, it can manage all the traffic flowing toward the many devices ("stations") that it serves. The "OpenWrt Wi-Fi Driver" uses the following mechanisms to reduce latency:
  1. Individual transmit queues for each wireless station/client. Each queue ues fq_codel to control the amount of data queued for that station.
  2. Airtime Fairness (ATF) to give each wireless client a fair share of the airtime as opposed to the number of bytes sent/received with ordinary Wi-Fi drivers. This ensures a low-rate (slow) station does not use up all the airtime (the so-called "WiFi anomaly"). ATF uses (deficit) round-robin scheduling of all active stations to ensure they each use only their fair share of the available airtime.
  3. Airtime Queue Limits (AQL) to prevent the chip hardware from queueing too much data for any one wireless station. Many wireless chipsets have significant (unnecessary) queueing. By default, AQL analyzes the actual bit rate for that station and ensures that no more than 12 msec of data is queued for it.
 
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xiaofan

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cake-autorate is not meant for wireless connection and only meant for variable speed connections. So I was WRONG to think it willl be good for wireless connection.

https://forum.openwrt.org/t/how-openwrt-vanquishes-bufferbloat/189381
On Variable Speed Connections
Many ISP data rates vary from hour to hour (or even second by second), for example, cable modems, Starlink, 4G and 5G cellular plans, etc. This is a problem for the CAKE algorithm because it uses fixed speed settings to control the buffering. This leads to sub-optimal settings: if you set the speed too high and the actual link speed drops, then the latency goes up. If you set it too low, CAKE artificially limits the potential transfer rate.

The cake-autorate algorithm addresses this. It continually measures the traffic load and latency to adjust the upload and download settings of the CAKE algorithm. See the README for more details.
 

xiaofan

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SQM measures like cake is still useful as our Fibre connection is a fixed bandwidth connection. It will be more for the wired connection.

https://forum.openwrt.org/t/how-openwrt-vanquishes-bufferbloat/189381
On ISP Connections
OpenWrt supports SQM to control all the traffic flowing through the ISP bottleneck connection to provide fairness to all flows, and minimize the latency for all packets sent through the link.
  • What devices support this? All modern versions of OpenWrt support both CAKE and fq_codel from the Network -> SQM QoS settings. (You may need to install luci-app-sqm first.)
  • How do I configure it? You'll need to enter download and upload settings into SQM. Enter values that are about 5% slower than your ISP's claimed speed. For more details, see SQM (Smart Queue Management) 3 on the OpenWrt wiki.
 

xiaofan

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I also took this opportunity querying there about Xiaomi Mi AIoT Router AX3600 i recently kapo cheap from carouhell and kpko on GL.iNET Flint 2 (GL-MT6000) . :grin:

Nice. It seems to me from various thread that GL.iNET Flint 2 (GL-MT6000) is a good one to go for the wireless router part of the story. There may be a few others.

I think in the end the following is a good one to go.
Intel N100 or similar mini PC running OpenWRT/pfSense/OPNsense with SQM for wired connection (1Gbps/2.5Gbps) -- GL.iNET Flint 2 (GL-MT6000) or similar to deal with wireless (no SQM needed)
 
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xiaofan

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Here is a good summary -- but now the question is to find a good one to deal with wireless.
https://forum.openwrt.org/t/how-openwrt-vanquishes-bufferbloat/189381

Basically the idea in 2024 (not to buy AC routers) should be to find good OpenWRT supported AX router using the following two drivers.
  • mt76
  • ath11k
From OpenWRT: majority will be using mt76 driver
https://openwrt.org/toh/views/toh_available_16128_ax-wifi

In the future, ath12k may be the one (WiFi 7) once IPQ95xx and IPQ53xx are supported by OpenWRT.

mt76:
https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/mediatek

ath11k:
https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/ath11k

ath12k:
https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/ath12k
 

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xiaofan

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Asus default Adaptive QoS, Learn-From-Home profile.

8Nw6JX0.png


Interestingly it does not seem to limit wired bandwidth and wireless bandwidth.

Bash:
root@ubuntu2204ct1:~# ./speedtest -s 13623

   Speedtest by Ookla

      Server: Singtel - Singapore (id: 13623)
         ISP: Singtel Fibre
Idle Latency:     2.50 ms   (jitter: 0.12ms, low: 2.44ms, high: 2.70ms)
    Download:   935.51 Mbps (data used: 456.1 MB)
                  3.61 ms   (jitter: 0.43ms, low: 2.59ms, high: 6.52ms)
      Upload:   934.85 Mbps (data used: 1.1 GB)
                 32.60 ms   (jitter: 34.71ms, low: 5.01ms, high: 404.93ms)
 Packet Loss:     0.0%
  Result URL: https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/827638d7-600f-4faf-b54e-5d27504b1478

Near range Acer Windows 11 laptop, wireless connection (about 3m away) -- A
https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=d0ea7525-2555-4c0e-ba97-2c489678d084

One thick wall in between -- B
https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=82b911da-1d7a-46de-81db-e0ea4d33d11e

Two walls in between (weak signal, 5GHz band) -- still F
https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=a2558211-e173-482a-97a3-2e5ec23b4e93

Using crusader to test Asus Adaptive QoS. Just want to show upload as download is not bad.

Near range Acer Windows 11 laptop, wireless connection (about 3m away) -- Good
RtmlB86.png


One thick wall in between -- Fair

U80v51e.png


Two walls in between (weak signal, 5GHz band) -- bad

A07gYAB.png
 

xiaofan

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Now need to go to Asus Merlin FW side to study a bit more.

1) Asus Adaptive QoS
This does not seem to slow down my 1Gbps link with Asus RT-AX86U, but may not be that effective. I am not so sure how well it works with 10Gbps for people using high end ROG GT-BE98 or RT-BE96U.
https://www.asus.com/sg/support/faq/1010935/

From RMerlin (main developer of Asuswrt-Merlin alternative FW)
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/why-does-trend-micro-need-to-collect-data-for-adaptive-qos.56658/
Adaptive QoS uses the Trend Micro DPI engine to analyze traffic type, based on signature files also provided by Trend Micro. This is how it's able to automatically classify traffic.

2) FlexQoS on ASUSWRT-Merlin.
Flexible QoS Enhancement Script for Adaptive QoS on ASUSWRT-Merlin.
Okay with 1Gbps. I have not tried it myself.
https://github.com/dave14305/FlexQoS

Brother @BradenHeat has done quite some experiments in this thread with FlexQoS.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...guide-for-starters-12-dec-2021.6658392/page-3

Note from github.
Options for Queue Discipline
Default: FlexQoS works with the default QoS queue disciplines setup by the Adaptive QoS engine. As of Merlin v386.1, only Stochastic Fair Queuing (sfq) is supported in combination with Hierarchical Token Bucket (htb). Earlier versions of Merlin allow the selection of a queue discipline on the QoS page.

fq_codel: FlexQoS offers the option to override the QoS queue discipline structure by replacing the second-level htb structure with the fq_codel queue discipline.

3) Cake for ASUSWRT-Merlin (bundled with ASUSWRT-Merlin)
Not suitable for 1Gbps plan as it needs more CPU processing power.
https://github.com/ttgapers/cakeqos-merlin

4) More discussions in SNB Forums:
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/how-to-choose-between-cake-and-adaptive-flex-qos.72101/
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/adaptive-qos-at-full-giagbit-speeds.73552/
https://www.snbforums.com/forums/asuswrt-merlin-addons.60/?prefix_id=8
 

BradenHeat

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Now need to go to Asus Merlin FW side to study a bit more.

1) Asus Adaptive QoS
This does not seem to slow down my 1Gbps link with Asus RT-AX86U, but may not be that effective. I am not so sure how well it works with 10Gbps for people using high end ROG GT-BE98 or RT-BE96U.
https://www.asus.com/sg/support/faq/1010935/

From RMerlin (main developer of Asuswrt-Merlin alternative FW)
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/why-does-trend-micro-need-to-collect-data-for-adaptive-qos.56658/
Adaptive QoS uses the Trend Micro DPI engine to analyze traffic type, based on signature files also provided by Trend Micro. This is how it's able to automatically classify traffic.

2) FlexQoS on ASUSWRT-Merlin.
Flexible QoS Enhancement Script for Adaptive QoS on ASUSWRT-Merlin.
Okay with 1Gbps. I have not tried it myself.
https://github.com/dave14305/FlexQoS

Brother @BradenHeat has done quite some experiments in this thread with FlexQoS.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...guide-for-starters-12-dec-2021.6658392/page-3

Note from github.
Options for Queue Discipline
Default: FlexQoS works with the default QoS queue disciplines setup by the Adaptive QoS engine. As of Merlin v386.1, only Stochastic Fair Queuing (sfq) is supported in combination with Hierarchical Token Bucket (htb). Earlier versions of Merlin allow the selection of a queue discipline on the QoS page.

fq_codel: FlexQoS offers the option to override the QoS queue discipline structure by replacing the second-level htb structure with the fq_codel queue discipline.

3) Cake for ASUSWRT-Merlin (bundled with ASUSWRT-Merlin)
Not suitable for 1Gbps plan as it needs more CPU processing power.
https://github.com/ttgapers/cakeqos-merlin

4) More discussions in SNB Forums:
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/how-to-choose-between-cake-and-adaptive-flex-qos.72101/
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/adaptive-qos-at-full-giagbit-speeds.73552/
https://www.snbforums.com/forums/asuswrt-merlin-addons.60/?prefix_id=8
I ish summoned, therefore i am here to stir nothing.

honestly, as long ISPs dont screw up on their back end,

and with wifi routers getting much better on CPU [ all the programming on packets etc ]

and end clients getting better [ cpu and the chipset ]

theres pretty much nothing should be done, with the current landscape of the whole shenanigans of Bufferbloat

QoS on a router = how much bandwidth to allocate.

CAKE IS king, should you be working from home, at times, so that that "burst" of download or stream will not affect the overall quality

hence [ QoS ]


the irony of bufferbloat prevention is actually doing and implementing soft bufferchunks of [ breather data ] on existing pipes, in order to allow the more crucial bits to go through without " choking "


heres something via GPT :


Bufferbloat Wrangling: Taming the Lag Monster for Home Users​

Ever experience frustrating delays while video chatting or online gaming, even with a decent internet connection? That culprit could be bufferbloat! Let's break down what it is and how you, as an end user, can fight back.

What is Bufferbloat?

Imagine a highway with on-ramps but no off-ramps. Cars keep piling in, creating a massive traffic jam. This is similar to what happens with bufferbloat. Your router receives data packets, stores them temporarily (buffers) before sending them on. But when overwhelmed, the buffer overflows, causing delays (increased latency) for all traffic, even important stuff like video calls.

End-User Bufferbloat Control: A Two-Pronged Approach

  1. Optimizing Your Home Network:
  • Wired Connections: Ditch Wi-Fi for critical tasks whenever possible. Ethernet cables provide a stable, direct connection, minimizing bufferbloat's impact.
  • Connection Management: Limit the number of devices connected to your Wi-Fi simultaneously. Many devices vying for bandwidth can exacerbate bufferbloat. Consider prioritizing essential devices or using bandwidth caps for less critical ones (check your router's settings).
  • Quality of Service (QoS): Some routers offer QoS features that prioritize specific types of traffic (like online gaming) over others. This can help ensure smoother performance for latency-sensitive applications. However:
    • Pros: Improved performance for prioritized applications.
    • Cons: Requires some technical knowledge to configure effectively. May not be available on all routers.
  1. Engaging Your ISP:
  • Bufferbloat Awareness: Not all ISPs (Internet Service Providers) prioritize tackling bufferbloat. Raising awareness can nudge them towards solutions. You can use tools like [bufferbloat test] to check your connection's susceptibility.
  • Upgraded Infrastructure: Ultimately, ISPs hold the key to significantly reducing bufferbloat through better network management and efficient routing protocols.
Remember: While end-user solutions can help mitigate bufferbloat, a proactive ISP is crucial for a truly lag-free experience.

Additional Resources:

  • Bufferbloat Test: [bufferbloat test] (This is not a specific website, but a general search term)
  • Eliminating Bufferbloat: [article on eliminating bufferbloat]


more interestingly, is how to get BBR, from google , onto end clients and or routers...... seems like theres no information nor way to implement those for testing, unless you're using Docker Linux or runing virtual linux machines full time.
 

BradenHeat

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I ish summoned, therefore i am here to stir nothing.

honestly, as long ISPs dont screw up on their back end,

and with wifi routers getting much better on CPU [ all the programming on packets etc ]

and end clients getting better [ cpu and the chipset ]

theres pretty much nothing should be done, with the current landscape of the whole shenanigans of Bufferbloat

QoS on a router = how much bandwidth to allocate.

CAKE IS king, should you be working from home, at times, so that that "burst" of download or stream will not affect the overall quality

hence [ QoS ]


the irony of bufferbloat prevention is actually doing and implementing soft bufferchunks of [ breather data ] on existing pipes, in order to allow the more crucial bits to go through without " choking "


heres something via GPT :


Bufferbloat Wrangling: Taming the Lag Monster for Home Users​

Ever experience frustrating delays while video chatting or online gaming, even with a decent internet connection? That culprit could be bufferbloat! Let's break down what it is and how you, as an end user, can fight back.

What is Bufferbloat?

Imagine a highway with on-ramps but no off-ramps. Cars keep piling in, creating a massive traffic jam. This is similar to what happens with bufferbloat. Your router receives data packets, stores them temporarily (buffers) before sending them on. But when overwhelmed, the buffer overflows, causing delays (increased latency) for all traffic, even important stuff like video calls.

End-User Bufferbloat Control: A Two-Pronged Approach

  1. Optimizing Your Home Network:
  • Wired Connections: Ditch Wi-Fi for critical tasks whenever possible. Ethernet cables provide a stable, direct connection, minimizing bufferbloat's impact.
  • Connection Management: Limit the number of devices connected to your Wi-Fi simultaneously. Many devices vying for bandwidth can exacerbate bufferbloat. Consider prioritizing essential devices or using bandwidth caps for less critical ones (check your router's settings).
  • Quality of Service (QoS):Some routers offer QoS features that prioritize specific types of traffic (like online gaming) over others. This can help ensure smoother performance for latency-sensitive applications. However:
    • Pros: Improved performance for prioritized applications.
    • Cons: Requires some technical knowledge to configure effectively. May not be available on all routers.
  1. Engaging Your ISP:
  • Bufferbloat Awareness: Not all ISPs (Internet Service Providers) prioritize tackling bufferbloat. Raising awareness can nudge them towards solutions. You can use tools like [bufferbloat test] to check your connection's susceptibility.
  • Upgraded Infrastructure: Ultimately, ISPs hold the key to significantly reducing bufferbloat through better network management and efficient routing protocols.
Remember: While end-user solutions can help mitigate bufferbloat, a proactive ISP is crucial for a truly lag-free experience.

Additional Resources:

  • Bufferbloat Test: [bufferbloat test] (This is not a specific website, but a general search term)
  • Eliminating Bufferbloat: [article on eliminating bufferbloat]


more interestingly, is how to get BBR, from google , onto end clients and or routers...... seems like theres no information nor way to implement those for testing, unless you're using Docker Linux or runing virtual linux machines full time.

Bufferbloat Wrangling: Advanced Tactics for Home Users (with a Focus on QoS)​

We tackled the basics of bufferbloat and how to tame it. Now, let's delve deeper into Quality of Service (QoS) and how it can be a weapon in your home network's arsenal. But remember, wielding this weapon effectively requires understanding its limitations.
QoS: Traffic Director for Your Home Network
Imagine a busy intersection with a police officer directing traffic flow. QoS acts similarly on your router, prioritizing data packets based on pre-defined rules. This ensures smoother performance for applications that require consistent, low-latency connections, like online gaming or video conferencing.
Consumer Router QoS: Power with Nuances
Most consumer routers offer basic QoS settings. Here's a breakdown:
  • Prioritization Levels: You can typically assign priority levels (high, medium, low) to different types of traffic (gaming, video streaming, web browsing). Packets from high-priority applications are processed first, minimizing delays during congestion.
  • Pros: Easy to set up. Improves performance for prioritized applications during moderate network load.
  • Cons: Limited control. Not all routers offer granular control over specific applications or traffic types. May not be effective under heavy network congestion, as all prioritized traffic ends up in the same "fast lane."
Advanced QoS: Beyond the Basics (Caution Advised)
Some routers offer more advanced QoS features, like:
  • Bandwidth Allocation: You can allocate specific bandwidth percentages to different applications or devices. This ensures a minimum amount of bandwidth for prioritized tasks.
  • Port-Based Prioritization: Prioritize specific ports used by online games or VoIP applications.
Caution! Advanced QoS requires a good understanding of networking concepts and can lead to unexpected behavior if not configured correctly. It's best to research your specific router model and consult the manual before venturing into these settings.
The Bottom Line on QoS:
While consumer router QoS offers some control over bufferbloat, it's not a silver bullet. Remember:
  • Limited Impact: Heavy network congestion can overwhelm even prioritized traffic, leading to delays.
  • Not a Replacement: QoS works best alongside other bufferbloat mitigation techniques like wired connections and optimizing connected devices.
The Path to a Truly Lag-Free Experience:
For a significant reduction in bufferbloat, collaboration between end-users and ISPs is key. By raising awareness and encouraging ISPs to invest in better network management and efficient routing protocols, we can all work towards a smoother, lag-free internet experience.





Fq_codel, Cake, and BBR all play different roles in the fight against bufferbloat, but they don't directly compete. Here's a breakdown:
Fq_codel and Cake:
  • Category: Traffic Shaping Algorithms (run on your router)
  • Function: Manage the queuing of data packets in your router's buffer. They ensure fair allocation of bandwidth and prevent bufferbloat by:
    • Identifying and penalizing greedy traffic: They detect connections that are hogging bandwidth and slow down their data transfer rate.
    • Prioritizing short queues: They prioritize sending data from connections with smaller queues, reducing overall latency.
  • Key Differences:
    • Complexity: Fq_codel is simpler and requires less processing power, making it suitable for most routers. Cake offers more advanced features but may not be supported by all routers.
    • Performance: Cake might offer slightly better bufferbloat control in some scenarios, but both are generally very effective.
BBR:
  • Category: TCP Congestion Control Algorithm (runs on your devices)
  • Function: BBR is a more efficient way for devices to request data from the internet. It helps applications adapt to varying network conditions and reduces delays.
  • Relationship to Bufferbloat: BBR works well with traffic shaping algorithms like Fq_codel and Cake. Fq_codel/Cake ensures fair bandwidth allocation, and BBR helps devices efficiently utilize that allocated bandwidth, minimizing delays caused by congestion.
In essence:
  • Fq_codel/Cake are like traffic cops on your router, directing data flow and preventing congestion.
  • BBR is like a more fuel-efficient engine on your devices, allowing them to get the most out of the available bandwidth.
For home users:
  • Enabling Fq_codel or Cake on your router (if supported) is a great way to directly tackle bufferbloat.
  • BBR, often already implemented in modern operating systems, works automatically to improve data transfer efficiency.
The ideal scenario:
Use Fq_codel or Cake on your router alongside BBR on your devices for a powerful one-two punch against bufferbloat!
 

xiaofan

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Haha, GPT-4.

Here is the answer from Microsoft Co-Pilot (based on GPT-4).
+++++++++++++++
You
Can I say BBR is not useful for wireless bufferbloat issue?


Copilot

It would not be accurate to say that BBR (Bottleneck Bandwidth and Round-trip propagation time) is not useful for wireless bufferbloat issues. While BBR is not specifically designed to address bufferbloat, it can still contribute positively to the overall network performance by optimizing the flow of traffic based on bandwidth and latency. However, studies have shown that in certain network conditions, such as 5G networks, BBR may suffer from significant bufferbloat, longer packet delays, and lower throughput compared to other algorithms1.

BBR’s approach to congestion control is different from traditional algorithms that rely on packet loss as a signal for congestion. Instead, BBR uses the estimated bottleneck bandwidth and round-trip time to determine the pace of sending data. This can help prevent excessive data queuing in some scenarios, but it may not be sufficient on its own to solve bufferbloat in all wireless environments2.
For wireless connections, implementing Smart Queue Management (SQM) algorithms like FQ-CoDel or Cake on your router, or using features like Airtime Fairness (ATF) provided by the wireless driver, might be more effective in directly addressing bufferbloat issues. These methods are designed to actively manage the size of the buffer and prioritize traffic, which can lead to reduced latency and improved network performance2.
In summary, while BBR can improve network efficiency, its effectiveness in reducing bufferbloat on wireless connections can vary and may not be as significant as other targeted solutions. It’s important to consider the specific characteristics of your wireless network when deciding on the best approach to manage bufferbloat12.

Learn more​

1dl.acm.org2www3.cs.stonybrook.edu3blog.apnic.net4hackaday.com5doi.org6doi.org— see less
+++++++++++++++

You
Can I say BBR is not useful for wired connection bufferbloat issue?

Copilot

It would not be accurate to say that BBR (Bottleneck Bandwidth and Round-trip propagation time) is not useful for bufferbloat issues on wired connections. BBR is designed to optimize throughput and minimize latency by estimating the network’s Bandwidth-Delay Product (BDP) and adjusting the pacing of data accordingly. This approach can help maintain low network-buffer utilization, which is beneficial in preventing bufferbloat1.
However, BBR may not always be fair when competing with other congestion control algorithms, particularly loss-based ones like Cubic. Studies have shown that BBR can sometimes take disproportionate amounts of router buffer and bandwidth because it does not react to packet loss the way traditional algorithms do. This can lead to unfairness under certain network conditions1.
In essence, while BBR has the potential to reduce bufferbloat by managing how data is sent over the network, its effectiveness can vary depending on the specific network environment and the presence of other traffic using different congestion control algorithms. It’s important to evaluate BBR’s performance in your particular setup to determine its utility in addressing bufferbloat issues1.

Learn more​

1mlforsystems.org2link.springer.com3blog.apnic.net4vquelque.medium.com5hackaday.com6waveform.com— see less
 

xiaofan

High Supremacy Member
Joined
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Messages
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Reaction score
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From Copilot in Windows.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
You
Hmm, my reference says that CAKE is not effective for wireless connection and it is more suitable for fixed bandwitdh connection.


Copilot

The CAKE (Common Applications Kept Enhanced) algorithm is indeed optimized for fixed bandwidth connections, such as wired networks, where it can effectively manage queue lengths and prioritize traffic to combat bufferbloat1. It’s designed to provide a comprehensive queue management system, particularly for home internet gateways, and includes features like bandwidth shaping and improved flow hashing for fairness1.
For wireless connections, the effectiveness of CAKE may not be as pronounced due to the dynamic nature of wireless bandwidth, which can fluctuate due to various factors like interference, signal strength, and changing network conditions2. These factors can make it challenging for CAKE to accurately shape traffic and manage queues as effectively as it does on a stable, fixed bandwidth connection3.
In wireless networks, other strategies might be more effective in addressing bufferbloat, such as implementing dynamic queue management algorithms that can adapt to the variable bandwidth or using traffic prioritization techniques that account for the wireless medium’s characteristics24.
It’s important to consider the specific requirements and characteristics of your network when choosing a queue management solution. While CAKE offers many benefits for certain types of networks, it may not be the optimal choice for environments where bandwidth is highly variable, such as in wireless scenarios1.

Learn more​

1arxiv.org2petarpopovski.es.aau.dk3turbofuture.com4howtogeek.com5geeksforgeeks.org+1 more


You
So for wireless connection, it is more useful to use wireless driver which implements features like air time fairness or similar, right?

Copilot

Yes, for wireless connections, using a wireless driver that implements features like Airtime Fairness (ATF) can be beneficial. ATF is designed to improve the overall transmission efficiency of a wireless network by fairly allocating “airtime” to different clients. This helps prevent slower clients from taking up too much bandwidth and ensures that all devices have a fair chance to communicate with the Access Point (AP), thus reducing congestion and improving network performance1.
ATF works by dividing the Wi-Fi signal into many same time slots, and each Wi-Fi device takes turns to send or receive data from the Internet within its own time slot. This approach can significantly improve the capacity and efficiency of Wi-Fi, especially in environments with a mix of older and newer devices2.
However, it’s important to note that the effectiveness of ATF can vary depending on the specific wireless environment and the implementation by the manufacturer. Some sources suggest that ATF may not be a reliable feature across different brands and types of devices, and it might be implemented differently between entry-level and flagship devices of the same brand3. Therefore, it’s recommended to test the feature in your specific environment to determine its effectiveness.

Learn more​

1community.tp-link.com2tp-link.com3mbreviews.com4devolo.co.uk
 

BradenHeat

Supremacy Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Messages
8,096
Reaction score
2,015
From Copilot in Windows.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
You
Hmm, my reference says that CAKE is not effective for wireless connection and it is more suitable for fixed bandwitdh connection.


Copilot

The CAKE (Common Applications Kept Enhanced) algorithm is indeed optimized for fixed bandwidth connections, such as wired networks, where it can effectively manage queue lengths and prioritize traffic to combat bufferbloat1. It’s designed to provide a comprehensive queue management system, particularly for home internet gateways, and includes features like bandwidth shaping and improved flow hashing for fairness1.
For wireless connections, the effectiveness of CAKE may not be as pronounced due to the dynamic nature of wireless bandwidth, which can fluctuate due to various factors like interference, signal strength, and changing network conditions2. These factors can make it challenging for CAKE to accurately shape traffic and manage queues as effectively as it does on a stable, fixed bandwidth connection3.
In wireless networks, other strategies might be more effective in addressing bufferbloat, such as implementing dynamic queue management algorithms that can adapt to the variable bandwidth or using traffic prioritization techniques that account for the wireless medium’s characteristics24.
It’s important to consider the specific requirements and characteristics of your network when choosing a queue management solution. While CAKE offers many benefits for certain types of networks, it may not be the optimal choice for environments where bandwidth is highly variable, such as in wireless scenarios1.

Learn more​

1arxiv.org2petarpopovski.es.aau.dk3turbofuture.com4howtogeek.com5geeksforgeeks.org+1 more


You
So for wireless connection, it is more useful to use wireless driver which implements features like air time fairness or similar, right?

Copilot

Yes, for wireless connections, using a wireless driver that implements features like Airtime Fairness (ATF) can be beneficial. ATF is designed to improve the overall transmission efficiency of a wireless network by fairly allocating “airtime” to different clients. This helps prevent slower clients from taking up too much bandwidth and ensures that all devices have a fair chance to communicate with the Access Point (AP), thus reducing congestion and improving network performance1.
ATF works by dividing the Wi-Fi signal into many same time slots, and each Wi-Fi device takes turns to send or receive data from the Internet within its own time slot. This approach can significantly improve the capacity and efficiency of Wi-Fi, especially in environments with a mix of older and newer devices2.
However, it’s important to note that the effectiveness of ATF can vary depending on the specific wireless environment and the implementation by the manufacturer. Some sources suggest that ATF may not be a reliable feature across different brands and types of devices, and it might be implemented differently between entry-level and flagship devices of the same brand3. Therefore, it’s recommended to test the feature in your specific environment to determine its effectiveness.

Learn more​

1community.tp-link.com2tp-link.com3mbreviews.com4devolo.co.uk
Which is true

cake is only meant , wired as it’s ping sensitive more which doesn’t mean one cannot use it

just that with all things equal, cake doesn’t account for the bad wifi unless it’s specific for lower bandwidth

good to see folks chiming in
 

BradenHeat

Supremacy Member
Joined
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Messages
8,096
Reaction score
2,015
Haha, GPT-4.

Here is the answer from Microsoft Co-Pilot (based on GPT-4).
+++++++++++++++
You
Can I say BBR is not useful for wireless bufferbloat issue?


Copilot

It would not be accurate to say that BBR (Bottleneck Bandwidth and Round-trip propagation time) is not useful for wireless bufferbloat issues. While BBR is not specifically designed to address bufferbloat, it can still contribute positively to the overall network performance by optimizing the flow of traffic based on bandwidth and latency. However, studies have shown that in certain network conditions, such as 5G networks, BBR may suffer from significant bufferbloat, longer packet delays, and lower throughput compared to other algorithms1.

BBR’s approach to congestion control is different from traditional algorithms that rely on packet loss as a signal for congestion. Instead, BBR uses the estimated bottleneck bandwidth and round-trip time to determine the pace of sending data. This can help prevent excessive data queuing in some scenarios, but it may not be sufficient on its own to solve bufferbloat in all wireless environments2.
For wireless connections, implementing Smart Queue Management (SQM) algorithms like FQ-CoDel or Cake on your router, or using features like Airtime Fairness (ATF) provided by the wireless driver, might be more effective in directly addressing bufferbloat issues. These methods are designed to actively manage the size of the buffer and prioritize traffic, which can lead to reduced latency and improved network performance2.
In summary, while BBR can improve network efficiency, its effectiveness in reducing bufferbloat on wireless connections can vary and may not be as significant as other targeted solutions. It’s important to consider the specific characteristics of your wireless network when deciding on the best approach to manage bufferbloat12.

Learn more​

1dl.acm.org2www3.cs.stonybrook.edu3blog.apnic.net4hackaday.com5doi.org6doi.org— see less
+++++++++++++++

You
Can I say BBR is not useful for wired connection bufferbloat issue?

Copilot

It would not be accurate to say that BBR (Bottleneck Bandwidth and Round-trip propagation time) is not useful for bufferbloat issues on wired connections. BBR is designed to optimize throughput and minimize latency by estimating the network’s Bandwidth-Delay Product (BDP) and adjusting the pacing of data accordingly. This approach can help maintain low network-buffer utilization, which is beneficial in preventing bufferbloat1.
However, BBR may not always be fair when competing with other congestion control algorithms, particularly loss-based ones like Cubic. Studies have shown that BBR can sometimes take disproportionate amounts of router buffer and bandwidth because it does not react to packet loss the way traditional algorithms do. This can lead to unfairness under certain network conditions1.
In essence, while BBR has the potential to reduce bufferbloat by managing how data is sent over the network, its effectiveness can vary depending on the specific network environment and the presence of other traffic using different congestion control algorithms. It’s important to evaluate BBR’s performance in your particular setup to determine its utility in addressing bufferbloat issues1.

Learn more​

1mlforsystems.org2link.springer.com3blog.apnic.net4vquelque.medium.com5hackaday.com6waveform.com— see less
And yet no bbr for mainstream wifi 😔
 
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