Getting an ILP PLAN from AIA

Perisher

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I like ILP because of its flexibility; you can vary quite a no. of stuffs.

Comparing reinphd's explanation:

"For quitting now and getting a term to cover the same and doing self investment and at age 65, I would have the results ($500/year for term, $1.5k self-invest in etf with 7% return):
Insurance premium paid: $18,500
Investment: $240,506 (factoring in the charges i use for SCB)
"

To summarize (At age 65):

ILP: Insurance charge = $32,339, investment portfolio = $176,503
Buy Term and invest the rest : Insurance charge = $18,500, Investment portfolio = $240,506"

Assuming one were to pass away at age 70 years old, investment portfolio probably contributes less than 300k to one's assets. That ILP would have contributed much more to one's assets that can be distributed to one's kids.

During times where business are bad, the death payout from the ILP would actually even out or lessen the lost of profits from a business and the death payout isn't taxable at all.

Think long-term...i.e. now till death, not short term like now till retirement.

Just take a look at the number of people who are in the red after buying ILP for years or decades in the below thread...
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/ilp-funds-4038446-5.html

Enough said about ILP returns.

Also, using SCB to buy STI ETF and calculating a 37 year of returns at 7% gives me a return of 275,676.96. That is using a $1500 per year investing capital. SCB charges, for that 37 years of investing $1500 each year, cost just $129+/-. Yes, $129+/- total for 37 years.

Try beating that with ILP.
 
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Perisher

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insurance is supposed to replace one's income if one were to pass away during the working years of their life. Upon death, insurance is supposed to add into the assets that can be distributed. Given the lower amount paid monthly, I don't think term insurance provides the ability to add into one's assets when one is in their 80s and 90s? Most term insurance expires at 60+ years of age.

Look at the contradicting statement here.
Firstly you say insurance is suppose to replace one's income if one were to pass away during working years of their life. Isn't that what a Term insurance does? Give dependents an substantially more income if one were to pass away during working years of their life?

And then you talk about adding ability to add into one's assets when one is in 80s, 90s... Isn't that what the investment part of BTIR is about? Adding way more $$ than ILP after a long term investing?

If you are an insurance agent, you should know term pays more for the same amount of $$ than ILP. So even paying a lower premium term insurance and investing the rest of the $$ works out the best for both insurance and investment.
 

parchiao

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Look at the contradicting statement here.
Firstly you say insurance is suppose to replace one's income if one were to pass away during working years of their life. Isn't that what a Term insurance does? Give dependents an substantially more income if one were to pass away during working years of their life?

And then you talk about adding ability to add into one's assets when one is in 80s, 90s... Isn't that what the investment part of BTIR is about? Adding way more $$ than ILP after a long term investing?

If you are an insurance agent, you should know term pays more for the same amount of $$ than ILP. So even paying a lower premium term insurance and investing the rest of the $$ works out the best for both insurance and investment.

I agree and disagree.

The biggest downside of term insurance is that it cannot be renewed after a certain age is reached. So having term insurance alone is not good if one needs to be insured at old age. This is the sole reason why people do not buy term insurance. For those who buy, it is useful when used in conjunction with other investments or insurance products, as you have rightly pointed out. The other point I disagree with is with returns, nothing is guaranteed.

I do however agree on this idea, that picking our own investments can lead to better outcomes, just as much as the opposite applies.


This section is for the TS as the TS did not mention what other types of insurance or investments he/she has.

Whether one buys an ILP or term insurance coupled with own investments, where the investment risk is concerned, lies with oneself. By this, I mean that the value outside of the minimum sum assured i.e. the cash or redemption value is dependent on how the holder of the ILP or investor chooses the underlying investments.

So between the two options, it now boils down to how much better one can seek returns oneself vs that of the performance of portfolio managers managing the underlying funds of ILPs, less whatever administrative costs.

At his juncture, if the sole purpose for buying insurance is for protection till a ripe old age, forget about getting term insurance and investing on your own because term insurance cannot achieve protection till a ripe old age. If one is adequately insured through other means like owning participating traditional life policies, it is okay to buy ILPs or by term insurance and investing oneself.

Why not buy ILPs in place of traditional life policies? The difference is that for traditional life policies, the investment risk is born by the insurer. Again, outside of the minimum sum assured, the insurer will have to seek the returns to compensate the cash value for traditional life policies. With ILPs, the cash value is dependent upon the funds the insured chooses and the performance of the portfolio manager of the underlying fund.

It is possible that your fund selection can beat that of a portfolio manager managing a traditional life policy, assuming that your timing is right with your fund switches. If so, why buy a traditional life policy vs a ILP? The problem is with the insurance element that you pay at an advanced age, it tends to be more expensive and can outstrip the premium that you pay resulting in deductions from the fund units that you hold. So if the markets are down and your total fund value trades at a discount of what you purchased those units from, you are essentially realising a loss.

Where with traditional life policies, the insurance element tends to be cheaper as it has been taken into account at the inception of the policy. In other words, with traditional life policies, the cost of the insurance element is spread i.e. pay more earlier and less later relative to ILPs.

Overall, a traditional life policy is more stable and in my opinion should be thought of as the first type of insurance policy to buy.

Now back to ILPs vs term and own investments. Perisher has a point when he mentioned that it is better to invest in a term insurance and invest oneself. The only condition which TS needs to understand is this, if TS is considering either options, just understand that term or ILP as a form of protection is only good up till a certain age. The best beneficiaries of such policies are for children.

As for investment returns of funds via ILPs vs own investments, neither are better nor worse. It boils down to ones own abilities in investing and time spent doing it. Many stocks that can weather a recession can yield more than what a fund can return when emerging from a recession. Take for example now, with energy companies going through a down cycle, would someone who is not familiar with the energy markets know which stocks to take advantage of? Buying an energy fund that is highly correlated with energy stocks would have it's benefits as an investor does not need to constantly monitor individual stocks. The energy fund is not likely to perform as well as the correct individual energy stocks when the markets pick up, but the benefit is that the holder of the fund will not have to do too much work. Extrapolate this a little, TS will see that correct individual stocks performance will be better than funds purchased independently of ILPs. So where ILPs are concerned, does the insurer offer an energy fund that the insured can take advantage of and are the portfolio managers of the underlying funds performing better than their counterparts? There is a lot more to investing funds and individual stocks that I find impossible to cover in this thread.

So for the TS, this is what you should consider. Buy a traditional life policy if you do not have one or if your insurance coverage is insufficient. Buy it when you are still young. The immediate reply should have been this.

As for ILPs, do not buy if your knowledge of ILPs is flimsy, if you are hearing about ILPs the first time around and most importantly, if you have no idea of what investments and stock picking is about. If TS is a male, buying ILPs without the proper understanding is almost like marrying a girl whom you have not seen, do not know and have no prior idea of what a relationship is about.
 

Perisher

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Quite simply, ILP is a waste of time, money and get the worst of investment and insurance. Even a WOT can't deny that.

ILP is paying a lot for nothing. A simple DCA STI ETF + bond will ensure that certain level of capital protection with higher rate of earnings. ILP is crap, crap, crap. No matter how one defends it yet further.

The returns is lousy, and that in and of itself is no capital guaranteed, it's capital erosion. Inflation erodes it even more. Fees and charges erodes it.

Mostly only the agents defend it and the lucky few who happens to pick a good fund that pays them well 'so far' will defend it. Generally no one else would defend ILP because generally it's crap.

Insurance and investment should never mix.

I can tear down your WOT part by part but no one will wanna read that. Just look at the number of threads that talk about ILP in HWZ, none survived, all got bombard till the agent give up because there is nothing to defend in the first place.

Let's get this straight, ILP's priority is to pay insurance company and it's agent well before paying the client if any. That is pretty evidence from the start. They don't earn their commission from a good returns in the policy's result, instead they charge first, earning is later and low and still incur fees.
 
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Perisher

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As for investment returns of funds via ILPs vs own investments, neither are better nor worse. It boils down to ones own abilities in investing and time spent doing it. Many stocks that can weather a recession can yield more than what a fund can return when emerging from a recession. Take for example now, with energy companies going through a down cycle, would someone who is not familiar with the energy markets know which stocks to take advantage of? Buying an energy fund that is highly correlated with energy stocks would have it's benefits as an investor does not need to constantly monitor individual stocks. The energy fund is not likely to perform as well as the correct individual energy stocks when the markets pick up, but the benefit is that the holder of the fund will not have to do too much work.

Extrapolate this a little, TS will see that correct individual stocks performance will be better than funds purchased independently of ILPs. So where ILPs are concerned, does the insurer offer an energy fund that the insured can take advantage of and are the portfolio managers of the underlying funds performing better than their counterparts? There is a lot more to investing funds and individual stocks that I find impossible to cover in this thread.

I took exception to the first paragraph here. Especially the sentence in red I highlighted. That's is wrong. DCA index investing is better than ILP in most if not all cases after decades. Most if not all ILP doesn't outperform or even match market returns over decades due to all the fees and charges.
 
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anfielder

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I took exception to the first paragraph here. Especially the sentence in red I highlighted. That's is wrong. DCA index investing is better than ILP in most if not all cases after decades. Most if not all ILP doesn't outperform or even match market returns over decades due to all the fees and charges.

I think parchiao was basically talking about doing your own stock picking, which can be a hit or miss.

It's good to clarify that we are not advocating doing your own stock picking but rather to do index investing, which will beat actively managed funds (e.g. unit trusts and ILP) most of the time.
 

limster

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Think long-term...i.e. now till death, not short term like now till retirement.

This one makes me LOL. Essentially you are saying that even holding ILP till retirement is not worth it. You have to die in order for an ILP to be worth it :s22:


And this is an fundamental point. If after holding an ILP for 10 or even 20 years, the ILP is still not making money, why should I think that things will get better if I hold it until I die?

Another issue is - why don't insurance companies publish the returns of their ILPs that have matured? Looking at investmentmoats where readers send him copies of their actual returns, the CAGR is about 3% except for some terrible ones that actually lost money. The average of 3% CAGR reported by investmentmoats makes me doubt all the fanciful ILP projections.
 

parchiao

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I took exception to the first paragraph here. Especially the sentence in red I highlighted. That's is wrong. DCA index investing is better than ILP in most if not all cases after decades. Most if not all ILP doesn't outperform or even match market returns over decades due to all the fees and charges.

Just to be sure, I am not advocating ILPs. I never like to feed insurance agents, not even with traditional life policies.

As with the above statement, maybe you need to clarify what the assumptions are. One investment vehicle may be better than another depending on circumstances and situations. But if the underlying of the funds do not perform, regardless of how more efficient the investment vehicle is to the investor, it will not necessarily add up to better gains. Take for example, if someone invested in a vehicle that tracks the STI vs a decent ILP fund that primarily invests in Hong Kong since the start of the year, I don't see how you logic about index investing is superior. My points have not been focused on efficiency, that is peanuts compared to how the underlying performs.
 

Perisher

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Just to be sure, I am not advocating ILPs. I never like to feed insurance agents, not even with traditional life policies.

As with the above statement, maybe you need to clarify what the assumptions are. One investment vehicle may be better than another depending on circumstances and situations. But if the underlying of the funds do not perform, regardless of how more efficient the investment vehicle is to the investor, it will not necessarily add up to better gains. Take for example, if someone invested in a vehicle that tracks the STI vs a decent ILP fund that primarily invests in Hong Kong since the start of the year, I don't see how you logic about index investing is superior. My points have not been focused on efficiency, that is peanuts compared to how the underlying performs.

You don't see because you took a short term view. Take a long term view of the same market. You shouldn't compare a HK fund to STI to begin with. Use a SG index fund in a ILP to compare with DCA STI ETF over a 10 year period.

It's possible to get a HK index fund to compare to a HK index fund under an ILP. Compare their result 10 years later and it would be huge.
 
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Perisher

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This one makes me LOL. Essentially you are saying that even holding ILP till retirement is not worth it. You have to die in order for an ILP to be worth it :s22:


And this is an fundamental point. If after holding an ILP for 10 or even 20 years, the ILP is still not making money, why should I think that things will get better if I hold it until I die?

Another issue is - why don't insurance companies publish the returns of their ILPs that have matured? Looking at investmentmoats where readers send him copies of their actual returns, the CAGR is about 3% except for some terrible ones that actually lost money. The average of 3% CAGR reported by investmentmoats makes me doubt all the fanciful ILP projections.

Agreed.
If it's just 3%, might as well get bonds or OCBC 360, much more liquid, same capital guaranteed.
 

parchiao

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You don't see because you took a short term view. Take a long term view of the same market. You shouldn't compare a HK fund to STI to begin with. Use a SG index fund in a ILP to compare with DCA STI ETF over a 10 year period.

It's possible to get a HK index fund to compare to a HK index fund under an ILP. Compare their result 10 years later and it would be huge.

Unfortunately, this is not the way people invest in the real world. What it boils down to again is stock picking, or fund picking if it is a more suitable term. On this basis, index investing does not guarantee better returns than buying an ILP as it still depends on the skill of the investor in identifying the correct markets or industries to buy into.
 

Perisher

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Unfortunately, this is not the way people invest in the real world. What it boils down to again is stock picking, or fund picking if it is a more suitable term. On this basis, index investing does not guarantee better returns than buying an ILP as it still depends on the skill of the investor in identifying the correct markets or industries to buy into.

Wrong, if you pick similar product, one using ILP, one using direct, the direct one would win each and every time.

Again, I emphasize, no matter what you do, using ILP for investment will always lose to direct investing.
 
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parchiao

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Wrong, if you pick similar product, one using ILP, one using direct, the direct one would win each and every time.

Again, I emphasize, no matter what you do, using ILP for investment will always lose to direct investing.

Your statements are all riddled with silent assumptions and are misleading. TS now probably thinks that ILPs are shite with your advice, but it really depends on what investments, not what investment vehicles, that makes the biggest difference by a long shot.

I rest my case.
 

anfielder

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Your statements are all riddled with silent assumptions and are misleading. TS now probably thinks that ILPs are shite with your advice, but it really depends on what investments, not what investment vehicles, that makes the biggest difference by a long shot.

I rest my case.

You'll be able to find an equivalent low cost etf for almost any ilp fund so your argument doesn't hold water.
 

Perisher

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Your statements are all riddled with silent assumptions and are misleading. TS now probably thinks that ILPs are shite with your advice, but it really depends on what investments, not what investment vehicles, that makes the biggest difference by a long shot.

I rest my case.

Riddled with assumptions? Ilp is riddled with assumptions. Ilp are shite, yes, with my advice, yes. If you want much more detailed explanation as to why ilp are poor product, go read up Shiny Things' advise on this. Otherwise there are tons of ilp thread in hwz which tell you the same thing.

For your infor, you are the one misleading people.

Yes, it depends on the investments but also depend on the vehicle you use to invest. Using a bad vehicle will always result in bad outcome vis-a-vis a similar investment.

I do hope you rest your case regarding ilp.
 

parchiao

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You'll be able to find an equivalent low cost etf for almost any ilp fund so your argument doesn't hold water.

My argument is not whether index funds are better or ILPs are better. It is about stock picking that matters in any investment. Maybe you want to explain how that does not hold water?
 

limster

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I will still recommend ILP to the ignorant, gullible or lazy.

Ignorant: If you don't want to learn about investment, then ILP is basically your only choice.

Gullible: After a gold ponzi scheme collapse, various investors were interviewed by the press on how they were deceived. Better for them to buy ILP than to lose all their money in Ponzi.

Lazy: For some people, DIY investing takes too much effort. These people are used to other people doing things from them. They also get other people to walk their dogs, buy their groceries. Servicing their car also too much effort, get concierge to drive car to servicing.


I have NTUC Living Policy, which out of pure luck, turned out pretty ok (breakeven 7-8 yrs, surrender value increases by more than annual premium). But I admit, when I bought it, I fell within the Ignorant category. =:p
 

Perisher

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My argument is not whether index funds are better or ILPs are better. It is about stock picking that matters in any investment. Maybe you want to explain how that does not hold water?

We do not, generally encourage ppl to stock pick. What we encourage is for people to buy index like sti etf or s&p500 in a dca way, that's it. Since you said your argument isn't about ilp, I don't get why you defend it that much. And I do see anfielder's point that you are defending ilp.
 

parchiao

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Riddled with assumptions? Ilp is riddled with assumptions. Ilp are shite, yes, with my advice, yes. If you want much more detailed explanation as to why ilp are poor product, go read up Shiny Things' advise on this. Otherwise there are tons of ilp thread in hwz which tell you the same thing.

For your infor, you are the one misleading people.

Yes, it depends on the investments but also depend on the vehicle you use to invest. Using a bad vehicle will always result in bad outcome vis-a-vis a similar investment.

I do hope you rest your case regarding ilp.

Can you tell me what I mentioned about ILP that is misleading? Please fee free to quote me.

You seem to be harping on index funds as a be-all and end-all which I say is bull.
 

parchiao

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We do not, generally encourage ppl to stock pick. What we encourage is for people to buy index like sti etf or s&p500 in a dca way, that's it. Since you said your argument isn't about ilp, I don't get why you defend it that much. And I do see anfielder's point that you are defending ilp.

Stock picking or fund picking, no difference with my intentions of what this means as I have clearly stated before. It is what you choose that matters more, not what investment vehicle.
 
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