Getting started with insurance

insouciance9

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What if? Jq1130 asked specifically about public hospital B1 ward Integrated Shield plans, which are not designed to cover private hospital care. Jq1130 is exceedingly unlikely to be obtaining care from a private hospital in Singapore.

You can defend the insurance industry's agent system if you want (I wouldn't), but it simply isn't relevant to jq1130's hospital claims, which the public hospitals directly file electronically.


It's exceedingly unlikely that jq1130, a work permit holder from Malaysia, will have a friendship (or even "friendship") with an insurance agent, but I suppose it's possible. In which case, jq1130 presumably would have asked that agent-friend for advice already.

Another reason this whole digression is moot is that jq1130 won't be able to buy an Integrated Shield plan directly from the carrier, if jq1130 decides to buy an Integrated Shield plan. There is no direct purchase of an Integrated Shield plan on the table for jq1130, so if direct purchase of insurance offends your sensibilities, relax, jq1130 won't be offending your sensibilities on this particular occasion. This particular purchase will have to be through an agent, whether a friend, "friend," or neither.

If you cared to read, I did mention that there is no direct claims for pre and post hospitalization claims, be it private or public. Having an agent would help you to process it. From the looks of it, it seems that you think that only the actual hospitalization can be claimed. There is such thing as pre and post hospitalization claims as well. So I believe an agent would have already helped you to save some cost by letting you know ;) Hence it's definitely relevant to what jq1130 is asking as an agent would provide such services. Anyways to each its own. Like I mentioned, if you like to do everything yourself to save cost then go ahead. On the other hand, some people would be happy to pay a fee for service rendered. No right or wrong.

Also if you bothered to read jq1130's comment, he did say that he has friends doing Pru and GE. Which was why I have already made my point earlier to go ask his friend agents directly if he wants to know more about it. I'm sure they will be happy to share more.
 

insouciance9

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Do you think i still need to get NTUC Income's Enhanced IncomeShield Basic
or PRUShield Plus (base plan)+PRUExtra Plus CoPay (rider)

NTUC will definitely be cheaper than Prudential. It depends on your budget and whether or not if you are concerned about the service being rendered to you. This is under the assumption that your friend will service you better. If you are not concerned, then you can just go for the cheaper one.
 

BBCWatcher

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Actually I rarely go back msia, i heard that after leaving Malaysia for 6 months, insurance is not covered. So i dint plan to buy hospital insurance in malaysia (medical card)
So what are your plans now for coverage in Malaysia (and elsewhere), both for visits and for your return? To reiterate, I don't know Malaysia's system, but (for now at least, unless and until you're a PR) you should make plans for your return since you're required to return at some point.

Yup,i just checked the handbook. I have to pay the full expenses and subsequently claim from insurer.
https://imgur.com/85fKsqY
Do you think i still need to get NTUC Income's Enhanced IncomeShield Basic
or PRUShield Plus (base plan)+PRUExtra Plus CoPay (rider)
Are you working in Singapore on a Work Permit, S Pass, Employment Pass, or something else?

If the insurance benefits listed in that image are the actual maximums (not what your employer merely hopes are the maximums, hence my question about your precise immigration status), then personally I wouldn't be comfortable with that since the benefits are so limited relative to costs in Singapore for foreigners even within the public medical system. And would you be able to handle the cash flow impact of paying a large medical bill then seeking partial -- potentially only very partial -- reimbursement?
 

BBCWatcher

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If you cared to read, I did mention that there is no direct claims for pre and post hospitalization claims, be it private or public.
He (or she) is going to have an agent if he/she signs up for an Integrated Shield plan! There is no other choice (for Integrated Shield plan signups)! There are no direct purchase Integrated Shield plans for jq1130.

Good grief, move on already, OK? :s11:
 

insouciance9

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He (or she) is going to have an agent if he/she signs up for an Integrated Shield plan! There is no other choice (for Integrated Shield plan signups)! There are no direct purchase Integrated Shield plans for jq1130.

Good grief, move on already, OK? :s11:

You started your point that it is probably for worse to deal with an agent. I am just sharing that it is not necessarily a bad thing to have agent. There are benefits to having an agent. Jq1130 initially asked if he should go direct or go through an agent. While he has not choice in this instance but to go through an agent, it does not dismiss the point of explaining the benefits of having one. And ultimately I asked him to go look for his agent friend who will help him better understand his queries and concerns.

Perhaps if you had better reading comprehension, then your sensibilities won't be offended :s8:
 

jq1130

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So what are your plans now for coverage in Malaysia (and elsewhere), both for visits and for your return? To reiterate, I don't know Malaysia's system, but (for now at least, unless and until you're a PR) you should make plans for your return since you're required to return at some point.


Are you working in Singapore on a Work Permit, S Pass, Employment Pass, or something else?

If the insurance benefits listed in that image are the actual maximums (not what your employer merely hopes are the maximums, hence my question about your precise immigration status), then personally I wouldn't be comfortable with that since the benefits are so limited relative to costs in Singapore for foreigners even within the public medical system. And would you be able to handle the cash flow impact of paying a large medical bill then seeking partial -- potentially only very partial -- reimbursement?
I cancelled my insurance when I came to Singapore 3 years ago due to financial problems. so currently i dont have any insurance
except workpermit insurance coverage.
Im holding workpermit in singapore, plan to apply Spass once company/mom review the Spass quota. To be honest I can't afford a large medical expenses. Dont mind i pm u ? Thanks.
 

BBCWatcher

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You started your point that it is probably for worse to deal with an agent.
No I didn't; that's your over-interpretation. I said merely that, unfortunately, jq1130 cannot apply for an Integrated Shield plan online...which would be the quickest way to get covered! Getting covered, quickly, is way, way more important than any agent, even the best one (certainly not a given). Some perspective, please!

Jq1130 already must file claims directly with his employer's carrier, by the way. (And outpatient claims aren't the problem if there is a problem, actually.) He still would do that even with agent sold Integrated Shield coverage since "best practice" is to file the primary claim with the group policy's carrier.

Nonetheless, if Jq1130 decides to sign up for an Integrated Shield plan, Jq1130 will have an agent. That agent may or may not be a good one, may or may not offer any help, probably will try to sell a bunch of questionable (or worse) products requiring Jq1130 to waste his/her time saying no to repeatedly, and may or may not be an agent or an agent for that carrier tomorrow. But whatever marginal value an agent provides, Jq1130 will get to experience that marginal value if Jq1130 signs up for an Integrated Shield plan, which unfortunately Jq1130 cannot do online to get covered as quickly as possible.

....Good grief. Back to the question....

I cancelled my insurance when I came to Singapore 3 years ago due to financial problems. so currently i dont have any insurance except workpermit insurance coverage.
What would be involved in reestablishing decent, basic coverage that includes Malaysia?

You don't have the right to stay in Singapore, and you must plan that you will return to Malaysia at some point. It could even be within the next 30 days -- you never know. Your healthcare needs will surely include healthcare provided in Malaysia, or at least you have to plan for that. So what's the plan? I don't know really anything about Malaysia's medical system, so all I can do is point out that you should properly plan for needing essential healthcare in Malaysia.

Im holding workpermit in singapore, plan to apply Spass once company/mom review the Spass quota. To be honest I can't afford a large medical expenses. Dont mind i pm u ? Thanks.
I prefer continuing the discussion here. You're pseudonymous, so as long as you don't provide your FIN, mobile phone number, date of birth, specific employer's name, or anything else that's personally identifiable, I don't think there's any issue. And others might learn from the dialog. But it's up to you.
 

BBCWatcher

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Jq1130, let me see if I can be a little more specific....

Let's assume that the cost of quality, essential healthcare in Malaysia is moderate but that it can still be expensive relative to your income and wealth. (You did say that you had financial problems causing you drop coverage in Malaysia.) In other words, you really don't feel comfortable (or are not able) to pay entirely out of pocket for quality, essential healthcare either in Singapore or Malaysia. So you need (or at least would need) medical insurance of some kind, at least in Malaysia. Is that correct?

OK, you've confirmed you're on a Work Permit, but S Passes operate the same way for the purposes I'm about to describe. Even though your employer has communicated to you particular insurance limits, your employer is, in fact, legally required to cover ALL your medically necessary expenses without limit while you're an employee. Quoting the Ministry of Manpower: "Under the Conditions of Work Permits, employers are responsible for and shall bear the costs of the upkeep and maintenance of their Work Permit and S Pass holders, including the provision of medical treatment." That includes inpatient and outpatient care, and only a small co-pay never to exceed 10% of your wages is sometimes possible.

Your employer may have communicated to you the limits of their medical insurance coverage. Work Permit and S Pass employers must maintain at least minimum medical insurance on each and every such employee. However, employers of Work Permit and S Pass holders have (in principle) unlimited legal liability for legitimate, medically necessary care. You should know your legal rights. Please note: air conditioned hospital wards, lobster hospital dinners, and private medical providers are among the many expenses that are not medically necessary and not your employer's responsibility.

You can count on your employer paying for only the cheapest (and non-air conditioned) hospital ward your employer can find in Singapore. So the basic reason you might want to get NTUC Income's public hospital B1 ward Integrated Shield plan, assuming NTUC Income will cover "independent" foreign workers (foreign workers who are not dependent on Singaporean citizens or Permanent Residents), is that you'd be able to afford some more comfort (i.e. a public hospital 4 bedded air conditioned ward) and get to choose your doctors if/when you need medical care in Singapore. Is that comfort upgrade worth nearly S$500 per year? Maybe, but it's up to you.

One huge problem is that your employer is surely going to fire you when you're medically unfit, and then you're headed back to Malaysia as soon as you're medically fit to travel. It's legal for your employer to terminate your employment in such scenarios. Your employer is only legally required to cover your medical bills in Singapore for your essential, medically necessary care, but your employer isn't required to keep you on. Moreover, an Integrated Shield plan includes the policy condition that you must have a valid pass or permit. Once your employer cancels your Work Permit (or S Pass), you don't have a valid pass or permit, and your coverage ends. (Please check the precise policy wording, but it'll be words to that effect.)

All of this means you should properly plan for "What happens when I go back to Malaysia, and I'm only medically fit to travel, but not necessarily healthy?" Some patients in comas are medically fit to travel; it's a pretty low bar to clear, especially for repatriation to Malaysia which is an ambulance ride away.

Like I said, I don't know what the Malaysian medical system is like, so I cannot offer any country specific advice. But here's some general advice. Basically, if returning Malaysian expats can immediately get decent or better medical coverage without preexisting condition limitations and without waiting periods, then you should be OK. Otherwise, if you're going to be barred from at least decent coverage because of a preexisting condition, or have to undergo some sort of waiting period upon your return, then it's a problem. Do you happen to know what the arrangement is for returning Malaysian expats?

It's good that you're exploring these "What if?" scenarios. As it happens, I think Disability Income Insurance (DII) could well be a higher priority than Integrated Shield coverage in Singapore, which really amounts to a "comfort upgrade" for you as far as I can tell now that I look at it even more closely.
 

xtwis7

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It’s actually super common for Malaysians working in Singapore to have their ‘medical card’ back in Malaysia.

At the end of the day, when you’re severely ill or injured, are you going to wait till you go back to Malaysia for treatment? I would 99% of the time that’s not going to be possible so it’s even more important that any foreigner look into having their personal medical coverage because it’s guaranteed renewable.

Should you change companies, you don’t want to be caught in a situation where your future employer does not want to cover you because of your medical history.
 

BBCWatcher

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It’s actually super common for Malaysians working in Singapore to have their ‘medical card’ back in Malaysia.
I rather assumed that.

At the end of the day, when you’re severely ill or injured, are you going to wait till you go back to Malaysia for treatment? I would 99% of the time that’s not going to be possible so it’s even more important that any foreigner look into having their personal medical coverage because it’s guaranteed renewable.

Should you change companies, you don’t want to be caught in a situation where your future employer does not want to cover you because of your medical history.
Jq1130 is on a Work Permit in Singapore, perhaps shifting to a S Pass. Employers are legally obligated to cover all medically necessary care for their Work Permit and S Pass employees, without limit. (Yes, the lowest, non-air conditioned ward class in a public restructured hospital is perfectly acceptable if the employee medically requires hospitalization. Guess what something like 99.9% of employers pay for. Exactly that.) That includes covering medically necessary care for their Work Permit/S Pass/FDW employees' preexisting conditions.

The issues you describe really only acutely apply to Employment Pass and other pass holders, such as DP, LTVP, and LTVP+ holders. If Jq1130 were to switch employers, but still on a Work Permit or S Pass, the new employer has the same legal "maintenance and upkeep" obligations as the current employer. There is no dropping of coverage in that scenario.

Anyway, to recap, I think it's quite important that all foreign workers in Singapore, on all passes/permits, try to preserve some sort of baseline home country medical coverage if it's reasonably possible to do so. With some home countries there's nothing extra to do, really. As one example, once a foreign worker moves (or is moved) back to the United Kingdom (and has the legal right to do that -- U.K. citizens do, for example), that person should meet the "ordinarily resident" test for U.K. National Health Service coverage, and that's that. I also think Disability Income Insurance (DII) coverage is vitally important to the vast majority of workers, foreign and local alike.

Work Permit and S Pass holders, including FDWs, that want to upgrade their medical care in Singapore above what their employers are legally obligated to provide may wish to consider Integrated Shield coverage. However, given their employers' legal obligations, I don't think Integrated Shield coverage is anywhere near the highest insurance priority for these particular foreign workers. If I were a Work Permit or S Pass holder, I would spend precious insurance premium dollars on baseline home country medical insurance coverage (if there's a cost) and DII first.
 
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jq1130

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Jq1130, let me see if I can be a little more specific....

Let's assume that the cost of quality, essential healthcare in Malaysia is moderate but that it can still be expensive relative to your income and wealth. (You did say that you had financial problems causing you drop coverage in Malaysia.) In other words, you really don't feel comfortable (or are not able) to pay entirely out of pocket for quality, essential healthcare either in Singapore or Malaysia. So you need (or at least would need) medical insurance of some kind, at least in Malaysia. Is that correct?

OK, you've confirmed you're on a Work Permit, but S Passes operate the same way for the purposes I'm about to describe. Even though your employer has communicated to you particular insurance limits, your employer is, in fact, legally required to cover ALL your medically necessary expenses without limit while you're an employee. Quoting the Ministry of Manpower: "Under the Conditions of Work Permits, employers are responsible for and shall bear the costs of the upkeep and maintenance of their Work Permit and S Pass holders, including the provision of medical treatment." That includes inpatient and outpatient care, and only a small co-pay never to exceed 10% of your wages is sometimes possible.

Your employer may have communicated to you the limits of their medical insurance coverage. Work Permit and S Pass employers must maintain at least minimum medical insurance on each and every such employee. However, employers of Work Permit and S Pass holders have (in principle) unlimited legal liability for legitimate, medically necessary care. You should know your legal rights. Please note: air conditioned hospital wards, lobster hospital dinners, and private medical providers are among the many expenses that are not medically necessary and not your employer's responsibility.

You can count on your employer paying for only the cheapest (and non-air conditioned) hospital ward your employer can find in Singapore. So the basic reason you might want to get NTUC Income's public hospital B1 ward Integrated Shield plan, assuming NTUC Income will cover "independent" foreign workers (foreign workers who are not dependent on Singaporean citizens or Permanent Residents), is that you'd be able to afford some more comfort (i.e. a public hospital 4 bedded air conditioned ward) and get to choose your doctors if/when you need medical care in Singapore. Is that comfort upgrade worth nearly S$500 per year? Maybe, but it's up to you.

One huge problem is that your employer is surely going to fire you when you're medically unfit, and then you're headed back to Malaysia as soon as you're medically fit to travel. It's legal for your employer to terminate your employment in such scenarios. Your employer is only legally required to cover your medical bills in Singapore for your essential, medically necessary care, but your employer isn't required to keep you on. Moreover, an Integrated Shield plan includes the policy condition that you must have a valid pass or permit. Once your employer cancels your Work Permit (or S Pass), you don't have a valid pass or permit, and your coverage ends. (Please check the precise policy wording, but it'll be words to that effect.)

Actually my previous coverage in malaysia that is a mix product(which is medical + investment link) i have to pay everymonth, but end up i canceled it.
Yes, I don't want to pay all my savings/emergency fund for medical expenses. That why im planing to get a hospital insurance.
What i understand from here is, as long as I'm coverage by employer, i no need to increase coverage in singapore (due to once i get fire, my coverage will ends) please correct me if wrong.

All of this means you should properly plan for "What happens when I go back to Malaysia, and I'm only medically fit to travel, but not necessarily healthy?" Some patients in comas are medically fit to travel; it's a pretty low bar to clear, especially for repatriation to Malaysia which is an ambulance ride away.

Like I said, I don't know what the Malaysian medical system is like, so I cannot offer any country specific advice. But here's some general advice. Basically, if returning Malaysian expats can immediately get decent or better medical coverage without preexisting condition limitations and without waiting periods, then you should be OK. Otherwise, if you're going to be barred from at least decent coverage because of a preexisting condition, or have to undergo some sort of waiting period upon your return, then it's a problem. Do you happen to know what the arrangement is for returning Malaysian expats?

Thank you, reminded me of this problem.
I just contacted my friend in Malaysia and she told me that I’m not qualify to get the medical card in Malaysia. I can get life insurance and Illness insurance.

It's good that you're exploring these "What if?" scenarios. As it happens, I think Disability Income Insurance (DII) could well be a higher priority than Integrated Shield coverage in Singapore, which really amounts to a "comfort upgrade" for you as far as I can tell now that I look at it even more closely.
DO you mean i can get DII in singapore?


PS: My English is limited,i try my best to reply in simple sentence.
 
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BBCWatcher

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What i understand from here is, as long as I'm coverage by employer, i no need to increase coverage in singapore (due to once i get fire, my coverage will ends) please correct me if wrong.
I think you've described your situation pretty well.

When you are working in Singapore under a Work Permit or S Pass, your employer is legally required to provide for your "maintenance and upkeep," which includes paying for your medically necessary care, in the lowest hospital ward class if you need hospitalization (since higher ward classes, with air conditioning for example, are not deemed medically necessary). There's no direct financial limit to this legal obligation. Your employer can, assuming you've agreed, require you to pay a small portion of your actual medical expenses up to a maximum of 10% of your wages, but the rest is your employer's legal responsibility that Singaporean authorities enforce.

Of course your employer can dismiss you. The employer's legal obligation ends when your Work Permit or S Pass ends.

In short, you already have some reasonable, basic medical coverage in Singapore while you're working legally in Singapore under a Work Permit or S Pass.

Thank you, reminded me of this problem.
I just contacted my friend in Malaysia and she told me that I’m not qualify to get the medical card in Malaysia. I can get life insurance and Illness insurance.
So let's suppose you fall ill in Singapore, your employer (as they must) takes care of your essential medical needs, you're then medically stable for transport, your employer dismisses you, your Work Permit/S Pass ends, and you're sent back to Malaysia, only medically stable for transport but still ill, perhaps even gravely ill. What happens then, in Malaysia? If the answer is, "It would be bad," then is there anything you can reasonably do to make that scenario better?

DO you mean i can get DII in singapore?
You should be able to, yes, assuming you pass insurance underwriting. I would look first at Great Eastern's DII policy (called "Pay Assure") since they seem to be the most tolerant of relocation outside of Singapore. Great Eastern still won't allow you to continue DII coverage if you're outside Singapore "too long," but at least they don't drop you right away either -- giving you time, hopefully, to shift to a DII policy issued in Malaysia. Aviva and AIA are the other two carriers offering DII policies in Singapore.

Fair warning: DII premiums are sometimes "expensive," but I think it's quite important that you at least consider it.

PS: My English is limited,i try my best to reply in simple sentence.
No problem.
 

mogucon

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Hi all. I'm 37, single, with a mum as a dependent. In 2011 when admittedly when I wasn't savvy, I signed an ILP (death and TPD) with Prudential for 100K coverage at $190 a month including of a 50K CI rider, and a PRUShield Premier for private hospitalisation. Have a pre-existing condition of chronic hep b.

Is it advisable to:


  • cancel the ilp (surrender value at $13k) and switch to a cheaper term plan with better coverage? Intention being to start investing in global and local etfs.

  • keep the ilp and supplement it with a cheap term plan.

Appreciate any input. Thanks!
 
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boredboiboi

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Hi all. I'm 37, single, with a mum as a dependent. In 2011 when admittedly when I wasn't savvy, I signed an ILP whole life policy (death and TPD) with Prudential for 100K coverage at $190 a month including of a 50K CI rider, and a PRUShield Premier for private hospitalisation. Have a pre-existing condition of chronic hep b.

Is it advisable to:


  • cancel the life plan (surrender value at $13k) and switch to a cheaper term plan with better coverage? Intention being to start investing in global and local etfs.

  • keep the life plan and supplement it with a cheap term plan.

Appreciate any input. Thanks!

Before u cancel the ilp protection and replace, make sure its incepted first else later u cancel and the new plan dont accept you due to pre existing. Ilp cost of insurance is cheaper before 50 but increasing as you age. But you can actually stop the premium also and coverage continue as its front end load, the only charges is the cost of insurance and its monthly admin fee or something. I used to have this plan too. I replaced it with a wholelife plan instead.
 

rnvstore

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hi all, may I know if I'm interest to become part time insurance agent, any suggestion for the application?

Serious for joining this industry, but don't want to hard selling the product for the purpose of hit sales target every month, that's why considering part time.
 

moejoseph

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hi all, may I know if I'm interest to become part time insurance agent, any suggestion for the application?

Serious for joining this industry, but don't want to hard selling the product for the purpose of hit sales target every month, that's why considering part time.

For part-time, u will still have to hit a minimum validation per year to keep your license. Approx is $12k comm per annum.

Most importantly is to find a team that is willing to accept part-timers, because usually it will not reflect well on their sales figures.
 

rnvstore

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For part-time, u will still have to hit a minimum validation per year to keep your license. Approx is $12k comm per annum.

Most importantly is to find a team that is willing to accept part-timers, because usually it will not reflect well on their sales figures.

Thanks, was thinking of doing this part time because of helping people while earning extra income. $12k sound achievable, but not sure the actual case will same as expected. have PM you :) cheers mate
 

jq1130

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I think you've described your situation pretty well.

When you are working in Singapore under a Work Permit or S Pass, your employer is legally required to provide for your "maintenance and upkeep," which includes paying for your medically necessary care, in the lowest hospital ward class if you need hospitalization (since higher ward classes, with air conditioning for example, are not deemed medically necessary). There's no direct financial limit to this legal obligation. Your employer can, assuming you've agreed, require you to pay a small portion of your actual medical expenses up to a maximum of 10% of your wages, but the rest is your employer's legal responsibility that Singaporean authorities enforce.

Of course your employer can dismiss you. The employer's legal obligation ends when your Work Permit or S Pass ends.

In short, you already have some reasonable, basic medical coverage in Singapore while you're working legally in Singapore under a Work Permit or S Pass.



So let's suppose you fall ill in Singapore, your employer (as they must) takes care of your essential medical needs, you're then medically stable for transport, your employer dismisses you, your Work Permit/S Pass ends, and you're sent back to Malaysia, only medically stable for transport but still ill, perhaps even gravely ill. What happens then, in Malaysia? If the answer is, "It would be bad," then is there anything you can reasonably do to make that scenario better?
I have no idea about this, I can’t get hospital insurance in msia due to my high risk job. Unless I get Illness Insurance?


You should be able to, yes, assuming you pass insurance underwriting. I would look first at Great Eastern's DII policy (called "Pay Assure") since they seem to be the most tolerant of relocation outside of Singapore. Great Eastern still won't allow you to continue DII coverage if you're outside Singapore "too long," but at least they don't drop you right away either -- giving you time, hopefully, to shift to a DII policy issued in Malaysia. Aviva and AIA are the other two carriers offering DII policies in Singapore.

Fair warning: DII premiums are sometimes "expensive," but I think it's quite important that you at least consider it.
I hope I manage to get DII insurance from GE,this is my last hope.My prudential friends just reply me, due to my high risk job, I can’t get hospital insurance in spore too.
 

BBCWatcher

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Jq1130, have you looked at FWD's International Health Insurance? They offer an ASEAN-only policy that includes Malaysia, and you're allowed to continue coverage when you move back to Malaysia. (You just have to notify FWD when you move.) It's available for online quotation and purchase. Please check it carefully, though, including the full policy terms.
 

jq1130

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Jq1130, have you looked at FWD's International Health Insurance? They offer an ASEAN-only policy that includes Malaysia, and you're allowed to continue coverage when you move back to Malaysia. (You just have to notify FWD when you move.) It's available for online quotation and purchase. Please check it carefully, though, including the full policy terms.

Ok, I will check online. Thank u.
 
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