Human Resources FAQ

[Comage]

Hello got something to ask for friend.

She told me that his company on wednesday asked him to choose to resign herself or get terminated. Then because she need more time to think, so they gave her one week to consider.

So by right have to reply them next week. But then this morning, she realized she got locked out of her work account when WFH, and they sent an email to her personal email address to inform her that they have accepted "her resignation" (which he did not make).

Is this legit/legal from MOM's perspective? Any chance to fight back?

1. Was the "one week" written in black and white? Or just verbally mentioned?

2. Did the company say they will pay back the notice period for termination?

I know there are loopholes companies can take to say they "are left with no choice but to terminate" the employee...

Recourse is possible but there needs to be written proof...

 

[ZuoMoJiangDe]

1. No B&W. But she is kdrama fan so she use their method to proof, but the method may not work in SG.

2. They say if she choose resign then she can no need to work during notice period but still get paid. If choose other option then is get nothing.

3. Please elaborate more...

Thanks for the advice by the way.

 

[kazuki666]

*off topic. TS has to decide whether it's him or her...

 

[ZuoMoJiangDe]

so sensi for wad

Technically, it is a she, but she is more like a bro to me so sometimes even I get mixed up.

 

[Comage]

1. No B&W. But she is kdrama fan so she use their method to proof, but the method may not work in SG.

2. They say if she choose resign then she can no need to work during notice period but still get paid. If choose other option then is get nothing.

3. Please elaborate more...

Thanks for the advice by the way.

Is there some other "aggravating" factor that led to this situation? That she was given a choice between the two evils?

If yes (only she knows if there was such a factor...), then I don't recommend even trying to slug it out - unless she has the resources ($) and/or the time to do so.

Because either one of the below possible "scenarios" is going to be triggered if she tries to "fight back":
- She was "not a team player" (translation: She offended the wrong guy at work)
- She "made a grave mistake at work" that led to company suffering tangible/intangible losses (translation: She did something wrong, and offended the wrong guy at work)
- She "did not perform up to expectation"(translation: She took too many leave days, and offended the wrong guy at work)

If you insist there there really was "nothing" at play - ask yourself again - what do you want to "fight back" against?
- To remain gainfully employed at the company (and having everyone roll eyes or gossip at you whenever you walk past the office workplace?)
- Or to get more compensation out of being asked to leave? (On what grounds? Being terminated from a job, whether fair or unfair, does not equate directly to being eligible for further compensation)
- To get the (higher-up) person who made the call to terminate - be removed from the company? (I have never seen this happen before in all my years of experience)

For the 2nd point in bold - you are going to need a lot of evidence to back the claim up - whether that be:
- Email records (no chance to retrieve that after being locked out; unless your friend dumped a copy of the messages out somehow)
- phone messages (may not be used as evidence in some cases)
- Written documents (unlikely to get hold of that also)
- Timeline of events (will need email/text messages trail to back up the timeline of events)
- Eye witness accounts (very unlikely to get aso)
... and then bring all these evidences up to MOM.

But even if you have all the above evidences all lined up in a row - MOM can only at most "recommend" or "advise" the company to adhere to the "necessary compensation" in-line with the hiring agreement form... which will very likely say:
- Notice period: Employee to serve notice period once resigned, or Company to pay up the salary in lieu of notice period if employee asked to leave on same day (something like that)
- Termination: Employee will not be eligible... for compensation... once terminated.

Otherwise, what you mentioned about the "no need to work... but still get paid" - which is equivalent to being given gardening leave, is already a very good deal (IMHO)... and a more peaceful path to take.

Sir @ZETMAN may have his alternate views about such a case...

 

[Comage]

*off topic. TS has to decide whether it's him or her...

Yes off-topic indeed.

Whether is TS' own encounter, or "a friend" - it makes no difference.

Honest questions begets honest answers - there is no shaming here being dished out; only proper advice being given.

This thread is one of the rare few threads that are unsullied by the EDMW filth that encroaches into every other discussion thread out there on Page 1. It would be wise to keep it that way so that people have an honest discussion about employment issues.

 

[ZuoMoJiangDe]

Is there some other "aggravating" factor that led to this situation? That she was given a choice between the two evils?

If yes (only she knows if there was such a factor...), then I don't recommend even trying to slug it out - unless she has the resources ($) and/or the time to do so.

Because either one of the below possible "scenarios" is going to be triggered if she tries to "fight back":
- She was "not a team player" (translation: She offended the wrong guy at work)
- She "made a grave mistake at work" that led to company suffering tangible/intangible losses (translation: She did something wrong, and offended the wrong guy at work)
- She "did not perform up to expectation"(translation: She took too many leave days, and offended the wrong guy at work)

If you insist there there really was "nothing" at play - ask yourself again - what do you want to "fight back" against?
- To remain gainfully employed at the company (and having everyone roll eyes or gossip at you whenever you walk past the office workplace?)
- Or to get more compensation out of being asked to leave? (On what grounds? Being terminated from a job, whether fair or unfair, does not equate directly to being eligible for further compensation)
- To get the (higher-up) person who made the call to terminate - be removed from the company? (I have never seen this happen before in all my years of experience)

For the 2nd point in bold - you are going to need a lot of evidence to back the claim up - whether that be:
- Email records (no chance to retrieve that after being locked out; unless your friend dumped a copy of the messages out somehow)
- phone messages (may not be used as evidence in some cases)
- Written documents (unlikely to get hold of that also)
- Timeline of events (will need email/text messages trail to back up the timeline of events)
- Eye witness accounts (very unlikely to get aso)
... and then bring all these evidences up to MOM.

But even if you have all the above evidences all lined up in a row - MOM can only at most "recommend" or "advise" the company to adhere to the "necessary compensation" in-line with the hiring agreement form... which will very likely say:
- Notice period: Employee to serve notice period once resigned, or Company to pay up the salary in lieu of notice period if employee asked to leave on same day (something like that)
- Termination: Employee will not be eligible... for compensation... once terminated.

Otherwise, what you mentioned about the "no need to work... but still get paid" - which is equivalent to being given gardening leave, is already a very good deal (IMHO)... and a more peaceful path to take.

Sir @ZETMAN may have his alternate views about such a case...

In terms of "aggravating" factors, I'm sure are some office politics at play in most work scenarios, and she definitely "offended the wrong guy at work".

Considering that she just lost the job, she has all the time in the world to "slug it out", while trying to tide things through with the comfort in knowledge that she does have some level of savings and won't have to go hungry in the near term.

Of course, it would be better to spend her time on looking for a new job instead, but considering the job market at the present, she is not very hopeful about she will land something soon, and would rather spend the energy fighting her way back into the job that she was inappropriately dismissed from. Besides, 做生不如做熟。

I can see that you are a rather experienced HR person because the lists you make are quite exhaustive and pretty much hits the spot. I think that the main reason for wanting to "fight back" is to get some closure from the situation, but here's some thoughts about your list.

1. If she does manage to escalate this to some senior people within the organization, and manage to achieve 3. then she has essentially won the battle against a toxic boss, so even if the battle left some scars on the, that's kind of like a badge of honor. No doubt there will be some people in the office who will be rolling their eyes, but there's probably some other people who will be clapping their hands for her instead.
2. Although it would be nice to be able to get a little bit more cash out of the company, this is essentially not the main focus as it would not be very substantial anyway, comparatively to the longer term financial losses and emotional stress (from being unemployed)
3. Understandably, this is not going to be something that happens very frequently, but never say never. The friction has been going on for some time, and she did foresee that this day would come sooner or later (just not so soon). So she has accumulated quite a bit of a "dump", but the only concern is how to bring these evidence to light and if anyone would even want to take a look at it. Putting all those "old evidence" aside. I think the bottom line is that she did not submit her resignation officially, and they can't prove that she did. So technically, they are lying about her resignation in the "acceptance" email.

I don't actually know much about how MOM works, but going by the "testimonials" that has been "circulating" the media such as this one we're in. I'm not very confident that they would be of much help. So my suggestion to her is to blow up the matter in front of the senior leadership of the company, and hope that they would care enough to want to make an example out of the "toxic manager", to "correct the company culture" (even if it's just to put up a show). Worse come to worse, if nobody there really cares, she could at least do some #quittok and rant on linkedin/glassdoor.



PS: Thank you for providing such good advice in this thread and keeping it sane from the trolls.

 

[BuffBuffForevaAttached]

Hello got something to ask for friend.

She told me that her company on wednesday asked her to choose to resign herself or get terminated. Then because she need more time to think, so they gave her one week to consider.

So by right have to reply them next week. But then this morning, she realized she got locked out of her work account when WFH, and they sent an email to her personal email address to inform her that they have accepted "her resignation" (which she did not make).

Is this legit/legal from MOM's perspective? Any chance to fight back?

Wtf, why is your story so similar to mine? So its common practice to companies to do this kind of thing these days? Is it to avoid getting in the news for retrenchment?

Today is Labour Day and I was given 2 choices yesterday...​

They asked me to choose whether to be terminated with immediate effect, or volunteer to resign and be given 1 month garden leave.

I'm still on probation and it supposedly ends in June. But for the past few months there's been quite a lot of friction with the people in power and that is why I'm getting kicked out. But actually the friction only exist within the direct/adjacent team, and I believe it is just this few people who are incompetent, incapable and not up for the challenge that I'm having sparks fly with. Because, I've been consistently opposing their 'established' (aka legacy, outdated, inefficient) ways of working, and proposing newer, better ways that can benefit not just me, but everyone else, if they are willing to adopt it and make it the new SOP. I'm doing that because that is what I would have done by default (just based on my character) anyway, and also because that is what the leadership/higher management has been advocating/pushing for.

"Everyone should have the courage and grit/persistence to not settle for mediocrity and bureaucracy"
That is a quote from one of the senior leader that I'm trying to live by, but it's just real sad that the "mediocrity and bureaucracy" happens to be the middle management that is managing me, which lead to the current situation of me getting the boot. They are just unreceptive and unwilling to change, citing "there's no need to reinvent the wheel" as an excuse for inaction. And when I try to "motivate" them to budge, they get upset and tell me to just follow their silly old ways instead. I have asked for a reason, multiple times actually, but even after that they still can't give a reason for that necessity (of using "their way") and why they are so insistent about it.

So I refused to bow to that nonsense, and they used that point as a show non-compliance/defiance to get me in trouble.

Happy Labour Day!?

 

[ZuoMoJiangDe]

Wtf, why is your story so similar to mine? So its common practice to companies to do this kind of thing these days? Is it to avoid getting in the news for retrenchment?

Seriously? IIRC she mentioned before her office recently moved to bugis, yours?

prob because there's really nothing u can do

MOM dont care or can do anything to these coy

Un...un...un...un...unbelievable. Where is the ceiling and bro ng when you need em?

 

[shodan99]

Check with yall, when calculating last day of work from date of notice is based on calendar day or work weeks?

 

[Comage]

Check with yall, when calculating last day of work from date of notice is based on calendar day or work weeks?

Usually, just count by calendar days.

e.g. You tender today, 15-Jul-2024. If notice period is "1 month" - then last day will be 14-Aug-2024. If the last day falls on a non-working day (e.g. Sat/Sun/PH) - then count backwards to the last working day.

Then again, can differ by individual company's employment clause/contract. Check that in the fineprint (or own company's intranet portal for Employee Handbook) for the specifics. May differ for employees employed under different paygrades/positions also.

 

[Comage]

In terms of "aggravating" factors, I'm sure are some office politics at play in most work scenarios, and she definitely "offended the wrong guy at work".

Considering that she just lost the job, she has all the time in the world to "slug it out", while trying to tide things through with the comfort in knowledge that she does have some level of savings and won't have to go hungry in the near term.

Of course, it would be better to spend her time on looking for a new job instead, but considering the job market at the present, she is not very hopeful about she will land something soon, and would rather spend the energy fighting her way back into the job that she was inappropriately dismissed from. Besides, 做生不如做熟。

I can see that you are a rather experienced HR person because the lists you make are quite exhaustive and pretty much hits the spot. I think that the main reason for wanting to "fight back" is to get some closure from the situation, but here's some thoughts about your list.

1. If she does manage to escalate this to some senior people within the organization, and manage to achieve 3. then she has essentially won the battle against a toxic boss, so even if the battle left some scars on the, that's kind of like a badge of honor. No doubt there will be some people in the office who will be rolling their eyes, but there's probably some other people who will be clapping their hands for her instead.
2. Although it would be nice to be able to get a little bit more cash out of the company, this is essentially not the main focus as it would not be very substantial anyway, comparatively to the longer term financial losses and emotional stress (from being unemployed)
3. Understandably, this is not going to be something that happens very frequently, but never say never. The friction has been going on for some time, and she did foresee that this day would come sooner or later (just not so soon). So she has accumulated quite a bit of a "dump", but the only concern is how to bring these evidence to light and if anyone would even want to take a look at it. Putting all those "old evidence" aside. I think the bottom line is that she did not submit her resignation officially, and they can't prove that she did. So technically, they are lying about her resignation in the "acceptance" email.

I don't actually know much about how MOM works, but going by the "testimonials" that has been "circulating" the media such as this one we're in. I'm not very confident that they would be of much help. So my suggestion to her is to blow up the matter in front of the senior leadership of the company, and hope that they would care enough to want to make an example out of the "toxic manager", to "correct the company culture" (even if it's just to put up a show). Worse come to worse, if nobody there really cares, she could at least do some #quittok and rant on linkedin/glassdoor.



PS: Thank you for providing such good advice in this thread and keeping it sane from the trolls.

OK - I got your story now. Understand she has the "time" - but other resources are not so easy (e.g. money) if she decides to REALLY take the legal route.

Question:
- The person she had conflicts with - is it higher position guy? Or equal rank?
If the conflict guy is equal - and she wants to go the legal route - then OK, please proceed.

If the conflict guy is of higher rank - forget it - she will never win, even if she lawyers up properly with a local Tier1 lawyer. The existing management at the company is definitely going to side with the conflict guy still sitting in the company. Afterall - that guy is the one who is still "employed" - and not your friend who was "terminated" due to <insert whatever reason here>. There is no Management at any company who is going to listen to the words of an ex-employee - otherwise she would be the one still at the company, and the conflict guy would be the one given the sack instead.

Also, you mention "Badge of honour"? If she's doing it for own ego purposes, I suggest she drop it and just carry on with life - even if she wins it and is re-employed by the company, remember there are probably more than a handful of guys back in the company who are on the side of the conflict guy - and who are also in a position of power/authority to give her flak in her everyday responsibilities. Even if she gets re-employed and survives, she will be facing weird crap like:
- No/little pay increment, due to lackluster annual performance (I wonder why...)
- No prospects of promotion (I wonder why again...)
- Daily BAU tasks fraught with roadblocks or sh|t (i.e. given the low-value, non-glamourous that nobody else wants to take up)

My own take? There's no winning solution to all this that involved your friend being re-employed.
The offer of the gardening leave is already the most peaceful and optimal solution.

Remember, the job market in Singapore is very small. If she is already working in a role that requires some "reputation" to get into (i.e. a white-collar job that is punching > $5k/mth or even 5-digits/mth), take the gardening and leave for another job.

Otherwise if she slugs it out and loses - and has a bad reputation - there is bound to be word going around that puts here into that "Do Not Hire" list amongst all the potential hiring managers in her industry. Then she will find that when she looks for that next job, and out of the dozens of applications she submits - not a single company calls her up for a job interview (mysteriously!). That's how the "Do Not Hire" list works... if she gets into that situation, There is no going back once word gets around that she has a bad reputation.

 

[ZETMAN]

Sir @ZETMAN may have his alternate views about such a case...

Answering your call

Hello got something to ask for friend.

She told me that her company on wednesday asked her to choose to resign herself or get terminated. Then because she need more time to think, so they gave her one week to consider.

So by right have to reply them next week. But then this morning, she realized she got locked out of her work account when WFH, and they sent an email to her personal email address to inform her that they have accepted "her resignation" (which she did not make).

Is this legit/legal from MOM's perspective? Any chance to fight back?

1. if she did not submit her resignation, then she has the right to challenge the basis. She can request for company to present evidence of her resignation.

however before she embark on this, she need to really think it through what exactly does she hope to achieve from this. Since it already comes to this stage, she need to think what is the end goal. If for the sake of personal gratification or on the basis of getting back at the company, then save it, not worth the effort. lets go back to some of the points raised by Comage which centralized around 1 theme..........what exactly do you hope to achieve by fighting back? and spinning off from that topic, to what degree do you intend to bring the fight to?

1. trying to get employed back again?
2. Trying to get back at the company or her boss?
3. Trying to get more compensation?

Honestly, if things already progress to this stage, if she is acting based on either point 1 or point 2, it is not going to lead to anywhere. U are going to put a crab to boiling water to kill it, will u let it live because it pinches u back? obviously no right? ur fren is the crab in this case. she walk into the water or being dump inside doesnt change the fact that the eventual outcome is her departure.

The only case I think she can really rely on, is to dispute this resignation and challenge it as an unfair termination. Report to Tafep and start the process to get some form of compensation for the notice period etc.

In terms of "aggravating" factors, I'm sure are some office politics at play in most work scenarios, and she definitely "offended the wrong guy at work".

Considering that she just lost the job, she has all the time in the world to "slug it out", while trying to tide things through with the comfort in knowledge that she does have some level of savings and won't have to go hungry in the near term.

Of course, it would be better to spend her time on looking for a new job instead, but considering the job market at the present, she is not very hopeful about she will land something soon, and would rather spend the energy fighting her way back into the job that she was inappropriately dismissed from. Besides, 做生不如做熟。

I can see that you are a rather experienced HR person because the lists you make are quite exhaustive and pretty much hits the spot. I think that the main reason for wanting to "fight back" is to get some closure from the situation, but here's some thoughts about your list.

1. If she does manage to escalate this to some senior people within the organization, and manage to achieve 3. then she has essentially won the battle against a toxic boss, so even if the battle left some scars on the, that's kind of like a badge of honor. No doubt there will be some people in the office who will be rolling their eyes, but there's probably some other people who will be clapping their hands for her instead.
2. Although it would be nice to be able to get a little bit more cash out of the company, this is essentially not the main focus as it would not be very substantial anyway, comparatively to the longer term financial losses and emotional stress (from being unemployed)
3. Understandably, this is not going to be something that happens very frequently, but never say never. The friction has been going on for some time, and she did foresee that this day would come sooner or later (just not so soon). So she has accumulated quite a bit of a "dump", but the only concern is how to bring these evidence to light and if anyone would even want to take a look at it. Putting all those "old evidence" aside. I think the bottom line is that she did not submit her resignation officially, and they can't prove that she did. So technically, they are lying about her resignation in the "acceptance" email.

I don't actually know much about how MOM works, but going by the "testimonials" that has been "circulating" the media such as this one we're in. I'm not very confident that they would be of much help. So my suggestion to her is to blow up the matter in front of the senior leadership of the company, and hope that they would care enough to want to make an example out of the "toxic manager", to "correct the company culture" (even if it's just to put up a show). Worse come to worse, if nobody there really cares, she could at least do some #quittok and rant on linkedin/glassdoor.



PS: Thank you for providing such good advice in this thread and keeping it sane from the trolls.

Let me burst your bubble again. Even if your fren escalate to higher ups in the organization, it will probably be a pebble in the sea. A splash and nothing else. She will hardly make a dent in the career trajectory of her "toxic" boss. A company is not going to terminate a manager just because of a "feedback" from a disgruntled ex-employee whom the company has deemed it sufficient enough to terminate. the most this can begets is a reprimand from the management that the termination process is not done correctly and a reminder of what should have been done better. At the end of the day, the work relationship with the employee is still terminated regardless of what is done. If the boss is any smarter, has record and paper trail of poor performance or attitude of this employee, the repercussion on him/her will be even lesser and not even a dink.

Think objectively and carefully what can you gain from this instead of letting ur emotions get in the way. If u think about going viral with glassdoor and tik tok video, do think about possibility of liable and defamation. if the company has a legal team, they can make an example out of this viral actions and you sure you want to have this be hanging over your head while u look for a new job?

 

[ZuoMoJiangDe]

Ok, thank you guys, I will advise her accordingly when we have lunch together.

 

[dango_daikazoku]

Wake up la, sometimes if you mess with the wrong people, even if you're actually right, still MYBFD. Such is the examples we always see in this society. WLWLSMDWL!!

 

[dango_daikazoku]

Otherwise if she slugs it out and loses - and has a bad reputation - there is bound to be word going around that puts here into that "Do Not Hire" list amongst all the potential hiring managers in her industry. Then she will find that when she looks for that next job, and out of the dozens of applications she submits - not a single company calls her up for a job interview (mysteriously!). That's how the "Do Not Hire" list works... if she gets into that situation, There is no going back once word gets around that she has a bad reputation.

Can you tell us more about this "Do Not Hire" list? How does it actually work? You mean all the HRs in SG (and beyond?) have a shared list in some portal/platform where they can just key in a name and find out whether to hire a person or not? Or is it just based on their own personal/professional clique/network to hear say hear say about a certain person and then they make their own guesstimate?

 

[ZETMAN]

Can you tell us more about this "Do Not Hire" list? How does it actually work? You mean all the HRs in SG (and beyond?) have a shared list in some portal/platform where they can just key in a name and find out whether to hire a person or not? Or is it just based on their own personal/professional clique/network to hear say hear say about a certain person and then they make their own guesstimate?

There is no list in among HR to blacklist ppl. but if the industry is small enough or if the hiring manager has a wide enough network, it doesnt take much for words to get around on this employee. If i see a candidate that has previously worked in a company that my contact is in, I can give a quick call to do a bit of sensing. U have no idea how many job opportunities were killed off silently in the background through this kind of communication in the network behind the scene.

 

[dango_daikazoku]

Word of mouth is not always a good source of information, you'll never know what sort of agenda the person saying it actually have. How do you fact check and verify the accuracy of such claims?

 

[Nefalrin]

Hello got something to ask for friend.

She told me that her company on wednesday asked her to choose to resign herself or get terminated. Then because she need more time to think, so they gave her one week to consider.

So by right have to reply them next week. But then this morning, she realized she got locked out of her work account when WFH, and they sent an email to her personal email address to inform her that they have accepted "her resignation" (which she did not make).

Is this legit/legal from MOM's perspective? Any chance to fight back?

Legal.

Anything just follow the termination clause of the employment contract.
A company is a place with no feelings and rules.

No chance to fight back unless they break the termination clause of the employment contract that she signed.

It is just like internet contract plan. Follow the termination clause.

 

[ZETMAN]

Word of mouth is not always a good source of information, you'll never know what sort of agenda the person saying it actually have. How do you fact check and verify the accuracy of such claims?

Here is a bummer.

you cant. and most of the time u dont, you can only place ur trust on the person u check with.

Like you say, there is no angle to verify the agenda of the person that is providing u feedback. For all u know, they could based their response through their interaction or hearsay. So this highlight a few important factors.

1. the person whom we reach out in our network is important.
2. how u behave and ur reputation in a company matters. the people we call for feedback might be your colleagues whom have work or not work with u before. there will be no opportunity for you to explain ur situation. so dont be an ******** just to get things done, it can come back without you knowing it
3. While you cant be a crowd pleaser, you shouldnt be a major douchebag either.