Insurance question, gurus please come in

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potatoes_are_fluffy

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Was searching for reviews about life insurance and PA insurance, seedly all the reviews like fake.

I'm hitting 30 soon and wanted to buy the above plans. I searched the forum for previous threads but surprisingly dont have much. Im looking at NTUC since my agent NTUC one and i came across the following thread below

Questions:

1. Is NTUC really bad? What is the best company?
2. Term life or whole life?
3. How to know if your agent scamming you? I feel like he pressuring me to sign up before my birthday saying premiums will spike but i dont want to rush into a decision.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/bad-experience-with-ntuc-income-travel-insurance.6274763/
 

boredboiboi

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Was searching for reviews about life insurance and PA insurance, seedly all the reviews like fake.

I'm hitting 30 soon and wanted to buy the above plans. I searched the forum for previous threads but surprisingly dont have much. Im looking at NTUC since my agent NTUC one and i came across the following thread below

Questions:

1. Is NTUC really bad? What is the best company?
2. Term life or whole life?
3. How to know if your agent scamming you? I feel like he pressuring me to sign up before my birthday saying premiums will spike but i dont want to rush into a decision.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/bad-experience-with-ntuc-income-travel-insurance.6274763/
1) no bad or good. But more of premium differences
2) term no cash value, wholelife have. Depends on yourself
3) this is the agent issue. Past birthday also can backdate. He is just using it to push you to faster close the case. I am an agent myself. I can assure you even after birthday, i can backdate to 1 day before your birthday. Backdate can be done up to 6 months. But of course renewal will be also 1 day before your birthday.

the bad review u shared is travel insurance, travel insurance t&c varies widely between different insurers
 

BBCWatcher

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I'm hitting 30 soon and wanted to buy the above plans.
I don’t understand why your age would directly matter in terms of insurance needs. For example if you don’t have any dependents then you don’t need life insurance (insurance that pays a death benefit). On the other hand you could easily need Disability Income Insurance from birth, although insurance carriers only offer DII once you start your first paid job. That could be age 20 for example.
I searched the forum for previous threads but surprisingly dont have much. Im looking at NTUC since my agent NTUC one and i came across the following thread below

Questions:

1. Is NTUC really bad? What is the best company?
NTUC doesn’t offer DII, so if you’re shopping for DII then you’ll have to shop elsewhere. Otherwise I think they’re perfectly fine if they’re offering a product you actually need at a competitive premium.
2. Term life or whole life?
Quite possibly neither (see above), but if you need life insurance then it’s much more cost effective to buy term life insurance and prudently invest the rest in low cost vehicles. That said there are some people who are not great savers, and it’s possible an insurance company’s premium bill is the only way they will save. If you ought to be saving then high cost saving is probably better than no saving.
3. How to know if your agent scamming you? I feel like he pressuring me to sign up before my birthday saying premiums will spike but i dont want to rush into a decision.
Premiums per year may go up a little with each birthday, but so what? Then there are fewer premium payments since the policy term is shorter. And if you’re saving (and prudently investing) spare dollars you’re doing more of that earlier when you buy insurance just when you need it, not before. That builds more wealth, more financial security, and a better lifestyle for you and/or progeny.

By the way if you do need term life insurance the Singlife MINDEF/MHA group term life insurance is great if you’re eligible.
 

reddevil0728

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I don’t understand why your age would directly matter in terms of insurance needs. For example if you don’t have any dependents then you don’t need life insurance (insurance that pays a death benefit). On the other hand you could easily need Disability Income Insurance from birth, although insurance carriers only offer DII once you start your first paid job. That could be age 20 for example.

NTUC doesn’t offer DII, so if you’re shopping for DII then you’ll have to shop elsewhere. Otherwise I think they’re perfectly fine if they’re offering a product you actually need at a competitive premium.

Quite possibly neither (see above), but if you need life insurance then it’s much more cost effective to buy term life insurance and prudently invest the rest in low cost vehicles. That said there are some people who are not great savers, and it’s possible an insurance company’s premium bill is the only way they will save. If you ought to be saving then high cost saving is probably better than no saving.

Premiums per year may go up a little with each birthday, but so what? Then there are fewer premium payments since the policy term is shorter. And if you’re saving (and prudently investing) spare dollars you’re doing more of that earlier when you buy insurance just when you need it, not before. That builds more wealth, more financial security, and a better lifestyle for you and/or progeny.

By the way if you do need term life insurance the Singlife MINDEF/MHA group term life insurance is great if you’re eligible.
Understand that there is really no need for life insurance should you not have dependants, can I get your thoughts about how to look at it from the perspective of:

1) you may not have dependants now but will likely have eventually
2) as you age premium increase, the likelihood of exclusions might also happen

how do you balance this competing “issues”?
 

lzydata

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Some counterpoints to the idea that young people (age 30) without dependants don't need life insurance, or don't need them yet:

- what about TPD, that usually comes with life
- everybody's got somebody. Even if not, if the policy is cheap, why not specify your favourite charity or cause as the nominee.

This is assuming term life, of course, not whole life. For whole life, there are different considerations, perhaps some people are really unable to save and invest without being "forced" to.
 

reddevil0728

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Some counterpoints to the idea that young people (age 30) without dependants don't need life insurance, or don't need them yet:

- what about TPD, that usually comes with life
- everybody's got somebody. Even if not, if the policy is cheap, why not specify your favourite charity or cause as the nominee.

This is assuming term life, of course, not whole life. For whole life, there are different considerations, perhaps some people are really unable to save and invest without being "forced" to.
For the 2nd point, there’s the argument that, why not invest and then will that investment.
 

Okenba

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No need to rush.
PA is usually not very important.
Life is important if you have dependents who rely on you.

You can check out the stickied threads on medishield and starting out with insurance for more details.
Term life is usually recommended esp if you use the excess money to save and invest.
 

exterminazn

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Have u gotten integrated shield plan (if you are sg/pr)?

And also if you are working adult, have u gotten Disability income insurance?

once above 2 sorted out, u can branch out to term or whole life
 

lzydata

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For the 2nd point, there’s the argument that, why not invest and then will that investment.
Because of leverage. I just ran a filter on CompareFirst, 30 year old male non smoker, term life, 1-5 years coverage, $1m sum assured. Cheapest is $291 premium annually.
 

reddevil0728

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Because of leverage. I just ran a filter on CompareFirst, 30 year old male non smoker, term life, 1-5 years coverage, $1m sum assured. Cheapest is $291 premium annually.
Right but technically that only materialises if there is death.

while investment does not need one to die before the funds can be used by self or be inherited
 

lzydata

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Right but technically that only materialises if there is death.

while investment does not need one to die before the funds can be used by self or be inherited
Sure, one should do both. But how much investment return can you get from putting in around $300 a year?
 

BBCWatcher

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Understand that there is really no need for life insurance should you not have dependants, can I get your thoughts about how to look at it from the perspective of:

1) you may not have dependants now but will likely have eventually
2) as you age premium increase, the likelihood of exclusions might also happen

how do you balance this competing “issues”?
I’d look at two basic, common scenarios:

1. Parent as dependent. In this scenario you probably know already whether the parent is going to come up short and won’t be self-supporting in his/her retirement. So you’d probably go right ahead and buy some term life insurance (and as always DII). This might be term to age 55 or 60 depending on your relative ages. And/or CPF Retirement Account top ups (to the parent’s CPF) work great since that feeds into the parent’s CPF LIFE income stream.

2. Future child as dependent. In this scenario you get to decide whether to create this dependency, and with whom. One perfectly viable choice is not to create the dependency if you think you (as a couple) cannot adequately defend the child’s lifestyle.

This doesn’t leave a lot of room for “I’m insurable now, will be uninsurable in the future, still going to create a dependency, still capable of creating a dependency, and I/we cannot self-insure.” The background context here is that Singapore’s TFR is the lowest in the world or darn close to it. Not bringing children (or more children) into the world is a very popular choice here.

Even if you think you’ll thread that needle you then ought to balance that narrow risk against other risks. Insurance that isn’t needed now isn’t free, and that spending inhibits useful cashflow and wealth accumulation. That’s a class of risks, too.

I tend to discount spouses as dependents these days, generally speaking. Dual income households are thoroughly common in Singapore, and a couple with a decent savings rate (and singles with decent savings rates before becoming a couple) can generally amass reasonable wealth to keep a surviving spouse from starving. Including CPF nominations. It’s the children who are financially tougher in these terms. Mileage may vary of course, but when I met my (then future) wife she would’ve been financially fine if I dropped dead the day after I met her. She was already nobody’s dependent, and what a party she would’ve had inheriting from me in that hypothetical. Here too we should “mark to market” what’s happening in Singapore: couples are coupling later than they did in prior generations. And both women and men are pursuing working careers and succeeding.

Finally, get DII when you start working. (Unless you can self-insure, and very few people can.) I’m going to keep beating that drum. THAT you should worry about.

Anyway, long answer, but overall I don’t worry much about life insurability. It’s an argument, but I don’t think it’s a strong one.
 

reddevil0728

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I’d look at two basic, common scenarios:

1. Parent as dependent. In this scenario you probably know already whether the parent is going to come up short and won’t be self-supporting in his/her retirement. So you’d probably go right ahead and buy some term life insurance (and as always DII). This might be term to age 55 or 60 depending on your relative ages. And/or CPF Retirement Account top ups (to the parent’s CPF) work great since that feeds into the parent’s CPF LIFE income stream.

2. Future child as dependent. In this scenario you get to decide whether to create this dependency, and with whom. One perfectly viable choice is not to create the dependency if you think you (as a couple) cannot adequately defend the child’s lifestyle.

This doesn’t leave a lot of room for “I’m insurable now, will be uninsurable in the future, still going to create a dependency, still capable of creating a dependency, and I/we cannot self-insure.” The background context here is that Singapore’s TFR is the lowest in the world or darn close to it. Not bringing children (or more children) into the world is a very popular choice here.

Even if you think you’ll thread that needle you then ought to balance that narrow risk against other risks. Insurance that isn’t needed now isn’t free, and that spending inhibits useful cashflow and wealth accumulation. That’s a class of risks, too.

I tend to discount spouses as dependents these days, generally speaking. Dual income households are thoroughly common in Singapore, and a couple with a decent savings rate (and singles with decent savings rates before becoming a couple) can generally amass reasonable wealth to keep a surviving spouse from starving. Including CPF nominations. It’s the children who are financially tougher in these terms. Mileage may vary of course, but when I met my (then future) wife she would’ve been financially fine if I dropped dead the day after I met her. She was already nobody’s dependent. Here too we should “mark to market” what’s happening in Singapore: couples are coupling later than they did in prior generations. And both women and men are pursuing working careers and succeeding.

Finally, get DII when you start working. (Unless you can self-insure, and very few people can.) I’m going to keep beating that drum. THAT you should worry about.

Anyway, long answer, but overall I don’t worry much about life insurability. It’s an argument, but I don’t think it’s a strong one.
So am I right to say it’s about your own personal value judgement? How one places probability on each scenario, how one decides the discount rate?

So for the same argument, depending on how you set all the probability and discount, the argument might turn out to be a strong one or a weak one?

did I get you right?
 

BBCWatcher

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Some counterpoints to the idea that young people (age 30) without dependants don't need life insurance, or don't need them yet:
- what about TPD, that usually comes with life
DII properly comes first, and CareShield Life (payouts starting by age 30) would often pay out if TPD would. If you still feel you want a TPD “kicker” then OK, add (say) $100K or $200K of TPD. You can get that via direct purchase term life insurance or the Singlife MINDEF/MHA group term life insurance. Also bear in mind the DPS includes TPD, and you might already have DPS coverage.
- everybody's got somebody. Even if not, if the policy is cheap, why not specify your favourite charity or cause as the nominee.
Nah, that doesn’t make sense. Why not donate to charity NOW, directly? That’ll actually, really help the charity, and you could get 250% of tax relief if it’s an IPC.
Have u gotten integrated shield plan (if you are sg/pr)?
An “as charged” public hospital B1 ward plan is entirely sufficient for these purposes. PRs need to be a little careful about plan selection in this category. (Hint: Singlife Plan 3.)

Foreigners (except those few who can self-insure and those who have excellent high or no limit employer-provided medical insurance) should also buy medical insurance, but if they are buying an Integrated Shield plan the lowest cost plan is a public hospital A ward plan. Last I checked Prudential PRUShield Plus was the best overall such plan for foreigners (IMHO), but that might’ve changed.
And also if you are working adult, have u gotten Disability income insurance?
Super, super important.
 

reddevil0728

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Nah, that doesn’t make sense. Why not donate to charity NOW, directly? That’ll actually, really help the charity, and you could get 250% of tax relief if it’s an IPC.
would it not make sense to only want to do something contingent on something else happening?
 

potatoes_are_fluffy

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Hello everyone thank you for the fantastic replies! Give me a while to digest..

DII properly comes first, and CareShield Life (payouts starting by age 30) would often pay out if TPD would. If you still feel you want a TPD “kicker” then OK, add (say) $100K or $200K of TPD. You can get that via direct purchase term life insurance or the Singlife MINDEF/MHA group term life insurance. Also bear in mind the DPS includes TPD, and you might already have DPS coverage.
Why is DII important? Sorry can enlighten me cause i nvr hear before and none of my friends have it i think. but all have term or whole in some form.

By the way if you do need term life insurance the Singlife MINDEF/MHA group term life insurance is great if you’re eligible.

The group term life doesnt have CI/early CI though right? Which was what i thought was important... I have parents as dependent. What would you recommend? Whole life just seems like a scam to me

1) no bad or good. But more of premium differences
2) term no cash value, wholelife have. Depends on yourself
3) this is the agent issue. Past birthday also can backdate. He is just using it to push you to faster close the case. I am an agent myself. I can assure you even after birthday, i can backdate to 1 day before your birthday. Backdate can be done up to 6 months. But of course renewal will be also 1 day before your birthday.

the bad review u shared is travel insurance, travel insurance t&c varies widely between different insurers

Really can backdate?! wah this scummy friend..
 

reddevil0728

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Hello everyone thank you for the fantastic replies! Give me a while to digest..


Why is DII important? Sorry can enlighten me cause i nvr hear before and none of my friends have it i think. but all have term or whole in some form.
Disability income insurance. When you can’t work for prolonged period, it acts as income replacement.
The group term life doesnt have CI/early CI though right? Which was what i thought was important... I have parents as dependent. What would you recommend? Whole life just seems like a scam to me
There is critical illness insurance. The early one though may not be as extensive as others.
Really can backdate?! wah this scummy friend..
Depending on the insurance typically can be up to 6m
 
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