KRI Usman Harun

[tequila_powered]

Something is going on in Indonesia politics. I am sure they have many heroes like the two other ships of same line named after Independence-ear fighters (BungTomo and JohnLie), but they chose two that are contentious from International norms/perspective. What would Indonesia feel if Changi Intl airport is renamed SuzieChoo-JulietGoh-YasinKesit and there is a mural in the terminal describing the event (of course from Singapore's point of view)? Singapore shouldn't, because Singapore should be higher at national/political maturity than that. Who within Indonesia politics is pushing that? Doesn't quite fit the top two political parties.

 

[tk]

maybe someone trying to score point for the coming Indonesian election..

 

[derrickgoh]

Nothing new. M'sia does it all the time too. Whenever elections approaching in either country, they will try to drum up support by finding a temporary target board i.e. Singapore.

Indo politics is quite complicated. Sukarno may be dead and gone but I'm sure there are people, and political parties for that matter, who agree with his ideas and still want to see them implemented today. Don't forget his daughter Megawati used to be President. She's no longer president but the PDI-P party still exists.

Highly possible that she intends to run again for the next election. And possible that the genius who came up with the idea of naming the ship after these 2 jokers is trying to carry balls with PDI-P or other pro-Sukarno parties, hoping that when said party rises to power, they will get rewarded somehow.

How else would you explain it? Like the Jakarta Post said, there are thousands of graves in the hero's cemetery. Why need to pick these 2 twerps?

 

[tk]

SG good to bully? always kanna picked as whipping boy by Indonesia and Malaysia.. wat can SG do to command more respect from them?

 

[cancer81]

to answer that question.

nothing...

unless SG stops having a Chinese or non-muslim majority

 

[tequila_powered]

Nothing new. M'sia does it all the time too. Whenever elections approaching in either country, they will try to drum up support by finding a temporary target board i.e. Singapore.

Not quite temporary.

Local Johor chieftains may line up some palm-greased folks to lay on the train tracks, or someone try to sail a fishing boat to the lighthouse but these really are temporary. When a protest is over, Msian/Singaporeans lim tea tarik together again chummy with nothing physical to remind them of the tussle.

A brand new navy ship unless sunk in combat would last you 20 years typical in Indonesian Navy. They can rename it earlier but they would have already painted themselves into a nationalist-fervor corner. Perhaps we could hire NorthKorea to put one torp into it if the ship happens to anchor somewhere near the island near the DMZ for some Gangnam r&r?

 

[derrickgoh]

Not quite temporary.

Local Johor chieftains may line up some palm-greased folks to lay on the train tracks, or someone try to sail a fishing boat to the lighthouse but these really are temporary. When a protest is over, Msian/Singaporeans lim tea tarik together again chummy with nothing physical to remind them of the tussle.

A brand new navy ship unless sunk in combat would last you 20 years typical in Indonesian Navy. They can rename it earlier but they would have already painted themselves into a nationalist-fervor corner. Perhaps we could hire NorthKorea to put one torp into it if the ship happens to anchor somewhere near the island near the DMZ for some Gangnam r&r?

I said temporary target board. I never said the ship was temporary.

Well knowing how the Indons do things, I wouldn't be surprised if the ship capsized sooner rather than later.

 

[superman]

In the end, this matter will be forgotten, Singapore will not chase away Indo ambassdor. After a while, Singapore will invite Indo Top Military Officers for meetings again and the ships will continue to carry the names. The only thing that I think Singapore will do is to bar these 2 ships from entering Singapore waters. Life will go on.

 

[cherry6]

Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

From an adjacent forum...
Singapore hopes that Indonesia will not let peace and morality down.

Thread source (a1forum): Singapore concerned over naming of Indonesian navy ship after executed commandos
Correction - no one wanted this until some smart aleck in Jakarta or TNI decided that one of their 3 second-hand made-in-UK frigates need to be christened with the names of Terrorists whose actions took 3 life and injured many others.
The point of all there diplomatic row and calling off meetings is to register protest and unhappiness - what is wrong with that ?
And to assume that this can lead to conflict goes to show some has little idea that Singapore still place great importance in its relation in ASEAN.
Beyond this, I suspect Mindef will not participate future bilateral military exercises what may involved the frigate KRI Usman Harun.

Agree that Singapore did the right thing to cancel the invite to Indonesian generals: cannot accept their glorification of terrorist: will only lead young Indonesian children to follow the same path, killing innocent folk for an unworthy cause, very bad precedence for SE Asia and increases suspicion between countries in ASEAN. Indonesian Government must overrule military and their poorly educated Generals. Indonesian Government should vet ship and other official christianing names to ensure deserving honor and international respect.

Singapore's LKY already placed flowers on the graves of the 2 fallen commandoes signifying forgiveness and closure of the episode with the commandoes having received their just desserts. No oil was added to the fire (e.g. Naming a toilet/ zoo animal after their names/ dragging their bodies through Singapore streets/ burning the bodies/ disfiguring them as lynch mobs commonly do); to my knowledge, as convicts, there was no ill-treatment of the commandoes in prison pending their death sentence , honorable treatment of the convicted Indonesians in prison and there after should be reciprocated with continued respect for the innocent civilians who died in the cowardly bombing, by accepting the episode as a terrorist act. The current decision to name the frigate after misled commandoes who killed innocent civilians is as misguided as it is wrong.

By glorifying the convicted murderers of innocent civilians, Indonesia has inadvertently diminished the glory of the other heroes (BungTomo and JohnLie) whose names are now being equally mentioned in the occasioned frigate christening scheme.

Singaporeans should mount an information campaign (blogs and other means) to inform Indonesian citizens about the historical significance of real Indonesian history/ heroes: that way, the Indonesian generals' ignorance of SE Asian history and lack of responsibility and human morals will be thoroughly exposed.

In the mean time, Indonesian military generals should be excluded from all Singapore trade shows. The cursed frigate ship should also be denied entry to Singapore waters and banned from participation in any bilateral military exercise forever.

 

[cherry6]

No place for petty chauvinism

ST FORUM: Published on Feb 11, 2014
No place for petty chauvinism
INDONESIA'S decision to name a warship after two marines who bombed MacDonald House in 1965 is not merely insensitive to those who perished and suffered, but also clearly designed to be provocative ("Singapore urges Jakarta not to 'reopen old wounds'"; last Friday).
In the words of a Golkar MP, let Singapore shriek "like a chicken beaten by a stick".
Clearly, it is not good enough for some in Jakarta that Osman Mohamed Ali and Harun Said are already honoured in a cemetery for "heroes", the way Japanese Class-A war criminals who committed atrocities across East Asia during World War II are enshrined at Yasukuni.
Clearly, former prime minister Lee Kuan Yew's gracious act of sprinkling flowers on their graves - against his own principles - for the sake of bilateral ties 40 years ago matters little to the Indonesian government.
At a time when Indonesia is actively fighting Islamic extremism at home and abroad, this blunt tribute to state-sponsored terrorism does its international reputation more harm than good.
I am shocked that a nation of 250 million people has no other national heroes to celebrate, apart from two saboteurs.
Surely a vast and resource-rich archipelagic empire can afford to be bigger than petty chauvinism, and resolve any differences with a "little red dot" in a civilised way?
Toh Cheng Seong
Copyright © 2014 Singapore Press Holdings. All rights reserved.
No place for petty chauvinism

 

[derrickgoh]

Very difficult to say whose view is right or wrong. Singapore considers the two terrorists as they planted bombs in public places that killed innocent civilians. Indo considers them heroes as they were obeying orders from their superiors and lost their lives doing so.

I agree it is tasteless to name the ships after these 2 when there are so many other heroes in their heroes' graveyard. Even their own Jakarta Post said so. But what's done is done. And let's face it, their leaders are not going to change their mind for obvious reasons.

Elections are round the corner. SBY may be seeking to get re-elected and certainly will not want to be seen as being soft. Even without elections, no leader of a country wants to be seen as backing down from another country.

Precisely why when the USA asked us to let Michael Faye go, we said no. We reduced the strokes of the cane but we still whipped his arse. Likewise when Australia asked us to pardon the Vietnamese drug courier, we said no. If you give in to every other request from other countries, you risk looking soft and giving people the impression that you are a push over. That's when other countries will start bullying you.

For this precise reason, Indo will not rename the ships. A decision was made and they are going to stick with it. Because if they don't, Indo people will say their govt has no balls and is scared of Singapore. And no leader of a country wants to be called ball-less.

Knowing that Indo will NEVER rename the ships, what is the point of harping on it? As a Singaporean I do take offence at the decision but I also wonder if what MINDEF did serves any purpose.

Ok you withdraw the air show invitation to the Indo military brass and cancel the meeting with their minister to show your unhappiness. In return they ask their junior officers not to attend at all even though the invitations for these junior officers were not withdrawn.

What does all this achieve? They sure as hell are not going to rename the ships. Our minister makes indirect remarks at them. Their minister makes indirect remarks at us. What next? Our Presidents send protest letters to each other? Ambassadors get recalled? For what? At the end of the day the ships are still not renamed.

I'm not saying we should just sit here quietly. By all means register our concerns that they have chosen to name 2 ships after people who killed innocent civilians. But understand that they WILL NOT reverse the decision.

So when they reply saying the decision has been made and will not be changed, we make it known that we consider it unfortunate that they have done so with no regard for the feelings of the families of the deceased. Case closed.

No point for this tit for tat. I un-invite you. You ask your people not to attend. My minister indirectly suan you. Your President indirectly suan me. Seriously does not achieve any purpose. If relationships go down the gutter, neither country stands to gain.

 

[Inix]

Like you said, many things is about posturing. Indo can't be seen as being weak, neither do Singapore want to be seen as being week. Putting aside the fact that someone up there was really stupid / trying to stir **** by naming the ships for that.

Singaporeans might generally more pragmatic people, and most of us haven't been as loud as the Indons have been, but if the Government does nothing, it will be seen as being weak as well.

All these are about posturing, at least thats how it looks to me. Drama here, drama there, make it though that we're really very angry and unhappy, but after that, everyone come out to "calm the situation", say that "relations are still good", we will "learn from this" and be "more sensitive" to respective feelings, life goes on.

And truth be told, this IS the most pragmatic way of doing it. By the end of this whole thing, people will be pacified, both governments would have done their thing, the fiasco will pass eventually.

 

[the erudite one]

if they really name their vessel that and bad things happen, would it be Singapore's fault?

 

[cherry6]

KRI Osman Harun: re-floating the horror of Konfontasi era terrorism again in modernSG

Same topic, related thread...

KRI Osman Harun: re-floating the horror of Konfontasi era terrorism again in modern Singapore

Thread source (a1forum): Singapore concerned over naming of Indonesian navy ship after executed commandos
Indonesia is such a big nation, in term of both geographic size as well as population. (Some of their islands are still not named). Since the former Pres Suharto stepped down with Indonesia practising more democracy, the country is more fractious and with it different interest groups and power bases. There will be groups that are out to deliberately provoke. If Singapore protest in private, it is likely that this matter will be settled privately and the public is none wiser. This public protest in effect put groups that are deliberately out to provoke in the spotlight (even if we do not exactly know who they are) and on notice. The President's and central government's attention is drawn to this matter.
I saw snippet of the interview by their Foreign Minister on TV. SBY has continued to remain gracious.

Maybe can blame SAF officers and their counterparts in Indonesia: they do not really understand each other and have not managed to convince Indonesian generals to have moral courage in their work (rather than glorify terrorist/ people who kill innocent civilians/ use ignoble/ underhand tactics).

SBY should also have more control over the military. Any ship naming of size larger than just sampan must be certified by defense ministry and also perhaps ministry of national development and also history department to see of the so called 'heroes' in some outdated textbooks still stand up to modern day scrutiny and that the naming scheme does not get hijacked by extremist.

The 2 coward commandoes (Osman & Harun) might have been heroes during the time of Konfrontasi: no question about that; however, more than 40 years have passed since that tumultuous period, haven't the Indonesians grown up? Is the relationship between Indonesia and it's South East Asian neighbors still just so bad that it has to glorify terrorist so as to continue its Konfrontasi era culture of sabotaging Singapore and Malaysia?

The naming of the new a Indonesian frigate after Konfrontasi era cowards shows that Indonesian government still remenances fondly the time of bullying its neighbors and retains the ill will to perpetuate such misconduct.

The reason why the issue couldn't be resolved in private as U asked was because Singapore only got to know about the situation through Jakarta newspapers: by then, the sensitive issue would be published all over the blogosphere and too soon worldwide. In any case, the current public confrontation might have been after private appeal failed, truth of this fact, common people will not know. As always, Indonesia having publicized nationally the naming will in either case soon have to explain the decision. Where an issue is of moral significance, why discuss behind closed doors?

Unless a sounder Indonesian explanation for the naming can be proffered, SE Asia should be cautious, and very cautious about Indonesia germinating the old seeds of terrorism this modern day.

 

[cherry6]

Like you said, many things is about posturing. Indo can't be seen as being weak, neither do Singapore want to be seen as being week. Putting aside the fact that someone up there was really stupid / trying to stir **** by naming the ships for that.
Singaporeans might generally more pragmatic people, and most of us haven't been as loud as the Indons have been, but if the Government does nothing, it will be seen as being weak as well.
All these are about posturing, at least thats how it looks to me. Drama here, drama there, make it though that we're really very angry and unhappy, but after that, everyone come out to "calm the situation", say that "relations are still good", we will "learn from this" and be "more sensitive" to respective feelings, life goes on.
And truth be told, this IS the most pragmatic way of doing it. By the end of this whole thing, people will be pacified, both governments would have done their thing, the fiasco will pass eventually.

Hi Inix, if U have kids, U should know how observant they are. If U name your ship/ car/ house after terrorism/ terrorist, U are implicitly legitimizing and encouraging it.

What is mere posturing today is the seeds of terrorism tomorrow as teenagers today hero worship the terrorist for killing innocent people for nothing. I hope U don't suffer the same, but the one who makes his bed also ends up sleeping in it. Forgetting about terrorism (by ignoring the fact that Osman and Harun were terrorist) will not make the tragedy of terrorism fade away...

If U don't stop terrorism outside, U will soon enough find it knocking at your own door. All good people should act to subdue and contain terrorism, and not just cowardly misjudge it as a passing trend.

 

[tequila_powered]

Very difficult to say whose view is right or wrong. Singapore considers the two terrorists as they planted bombs in public places that killed innocent civilians. Indo considers them heroes as they were obeying orders from their superiors and lost their lives doing so.

But if they are heroes merely because they were following orders, then all their military dead (I will exclude the term "war dead" til later here) are heroes. If all their military deads are heroes, then again the crucial question - why did they pick these two out of their thousands of military dead?

Military dead vs war dead. There are those who die in peacetime accidents, there are those who die in accidents in wartime (eg truck crash while on routine commute), those who die in actual combats, those who die in war of dubious nature. People are more likely to agree with "war dead" for the middle group, but less likely for the first and last. Example - Argentinians would more likely consider the military deads at Falklands to be war dead and heroes. They would less likely to consider the military deads during the internal Junta war against internal dissent/oppostion as war dead and heroes. That then leads to the nature of the "war" these two were involved in. There was no declaration of war back when such declaration was generally considered a requirement. They were carrying out activities outside of their uniform which was generally considered a requirement (to be treated as POW) back then. They were specifically targeting civilians; even the Allies city-bombing campaigns were covered by the presence of military infrastructure or infrastructure supporting the Axis war efforts. Pinpoint targeting a bank or a phone box in residential area....Thus these two died carrying orders of dubious nature. Many more Indonesian military died in uniform in the jungles of Kalimantan during the Confrontation in firefights against the British Army. They died unrecognized individually. These two died as symbol. Are they right symbol to project internationally?

 

[koxinga]

why did they pick these two out of their thousands of military dead?

Our 90 cents newspaper had a interesting take on this which I thought was quite sensible.

Quite possibly, the intention back to name the two marines as national heroes was purely politically, to placate domestic audience aroused by their actions and to keep everyone happy. They made meal out the bombing for their own political ends and hence no Indonesian politicians in their right mind would ever 'dump' those two poor sods regardless of the Geneva Convention.

 

[tk]

someone even proposed to build statues for these 2 war "heroes" in Batam..

MacDonald House bombers: Batam told to scrap plan for heroes statue

 

[cancer81]

a monument like that would be too "in your face"...

 

[derrickgoh]

a monument like that would be too "in your face"...

Let's name some back alley after those who committed the Bali bombings.