late starter advice needed

murugaratham

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Hi gurus, i am a family men with 2 kids now in my early 30s, working in us based mnc tech firm with espp (15% of monthly salary with 10% discount). I have UOB one 50k savings and i'm planning to start an investment portfolio.

What i have now:

  • ~15k sgd in espp (should i keep it there and continue?)
  • 50K Uob one

i currently do not have a trading acc, the espp by Fidelity should be "locked" to only do my company's share selling if i'm not wrong.

What should i do to get started?

I've read up lately in money mind, seems like the most common advice would be to start in SGS bonds and/or ES3 & A35? Sorry for asking noobish qns, but there's tons of info with very mixed and different directions.
 

wealth_farmer

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Hi gurus, i am a family men with 2 kids now in my early 30s, working in us based mnc tech firm with espp (15% of monthly salary with 10% discount). I have UOB one 50k savings and i'm planning to start an investment portfolio.

What i have now:

  • ~15k sgd in espp (should i keep it there and continue?)
  • 50K Uob one

i currently do not have a trading acc, the espp by Fidelity should be "locked" to only do my company's share selling if i'm not wrong.

What should i do to get started?

I've read up lately in money mind, seems like the most common advice would be to start in SGS bonds and/or ES3 & A35? Sorry for asking noobish qns, but there's tons of info with very mixed and different directions.
Read the Shiny Things thread in this forum or buy his book if you want a summarised version.

Whatever you do, don't be reckless and over-aggressive in your investment strategy because you feel the need to catch up as you're a "late starter". If you tank your portfolio by 50% due to poor choices, you have to make 100% returns just to get back to your starting point.

I'm not a fan of holding my employer's shares because as it is, your job security and bonus depends on company's performance. Holding your company's shares is doubling down on your financial future (just think about the employees of WorldCom or Enron who bought their company's shares). Getting shares as part of your bonus is fine, and I could also consider getting my company's shares if there's a company-match program or tax benefits to me. But a 10% discount like what you're getting is not enough to entice me.

Oh, and stay away from ILPs and endowment plans; they're almost always a bad idea.
 

murugaratham

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So i should reduce my risk by selling my company shares and put the funds elsewhere? Anyone have ISBN for Shiny Things' book?
 

Mr. Wood

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....


I've read up lately in money mind, seems like the most common advice would be to start in SGS bonds and/or ES3 & A35? Sorry for asking noobish qns, but there's tons of info with very mixed and different directions.

SGS bonds can be good or bad depending on your desired returns
good for capital protection, but bad for growing wealth.

Warren Buffett advise for newbies, which is what I subscribe too: stay away from derivative instruments. Only invest in what you can understand.

Don't go to banks or insurance companies to get advise. They will most likely hard sell you with what THEY WANT to sell, rather than what YOU NEED to buy.
 

peacefulday

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Hi gurus, i am a family men with 2 kids now in my early 30s, working in us based mnc tech firm with espp (15% of monthly salary with 10% discount).

most espp will have 15% off from its first or sixth month which ever the lower closed price. Confirm yrs 10% only? If your coy share price is stable should keep invest as you already earned the discount.
 

murugaratham

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most espp will have 15% off from its first or sixth month which ever the lower closed price. Confirm yrs 10% only? If your coy share price is stable should keep invest as you already earned the discount.

Yea, mine is 10% discount only, and capped @ 15% salary, it's trending upwards, i've sold it once last yr to prepare for my 2nd baby & also i worried trump get elected would have negative impact, but priced jumped almost 20% by now, a bit regret. But who knows right.

I always avoid ILP and endowments, coz i always believe there's no free lunch in the world and if i am the financial adviser, i would sell things that give me maximum commission rather than helping this fellow earn more.

I don't think i want to get high returns, just stable and better than putting in normal bank savings account, but some growth like what Shiny Things recommend is to put a ratio between shares/bonds. I don't understand most of the financial stuff, but i think it's time for me to start coz my parents didn't had any and i'm financially supporting them and my children. I don't want my kids to be in the same situation.
 

unhinged_loon

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Yea, mine is 10% discount only, and capped @ 15% salary, it's trending upwards, i've sold it once last yr to prepare for my 2nd baby & also i worried trump get elected would have negative impact, but priced jumped almost 20% by now, a bit regret. But who knows right.

I always avoid ILP and endowments, coz i always believe there's no free lunch in the world and if i am the financial adviser, i would sell things that give me maximum commission rather than helping this fellow earn more.

I don't think i want to get high returns, just stable and better than putting in normal bank savings account, but some growth like what Shiny Things recommend is to put a ratio between shares/bonds. I don't understand most of the financial stuff, but i think it's time for me to start coz my parents didn't had any and i'm financially supporting them and my children. I don't want my kids to be in the same situation.

I hope you have gotten H&S and term protection.
 

murugaratham

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I hope you have gotten H&S and term protection.

Yea i do have insurance coverage for me & my family, but purely for death, permanent disability, hospitalization, critical illness, etc.

Mainly for protection rather than investment. In the past, due to financial difficulty, i couldn't afford anyway, but as the family expenses are getting more stable (infant-toddler have a lot of "unexpected" expenses) , i wanna start doing something :)
 

wealth_farmer

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Yea, mine is 10% discount only, and capped @ 15% salary, it's trending upwards, i've sold it once last yr to prepare for my 2nd baby & also i worried trump get elected would have negative impact, but priced jumped almost 20% by now, a bit regret. But who knows right.

I always avoid ILP and endowments, coz i always believe there's no free lunch in the world and if i am the financial adviser, i would sell things that give me maximum commission rather than helping this fellow earn more.

I don't think i want to get high returns, just stable and better than putting in normal bank savings account, but some growth like what Shiny Things recommend is to put a ratio between shares/bonds. I don't understand most of the financial stuff, but i think it's time for me to start coz my parents didn't had any and i'm financially supporting them and my children. I don't want my kids to be in the same situation.
Google "rich by retirement indiegogo" and you should find the book.

Can't advise you whether to sell or hold as I'm not aware of your circumstances and your company, but what you raised about "how you didn't expect the stock to shoot up nearly 20% more when Trump got elected when you thought it should fall" is exactly the challenge of being an active stock picker which is why my bias is towards passive index investing. Anyway, in your shoes, I probably won't buy anymore of the company's stock until I have a more diversified, core portfolio built up, or if there's a sharp market correction and your company is a blue chip that went down by 20% or more and hence it's a steal; at that point, I would take a closer look.

Your effort put towards understanding the financial stuff will serve you well, because no one cares about your money more than you. You don't have to earn a CFA, just read more personal finance blogs and browse more of MM threads. Either way, you will pay to learn, it's just a matter of whether you want to pay with your hard-earned money or with your time spent to acquire more knowledge.
 

murugaratham

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Google "rich by retirement indiegogo" and you should find the book.

Can't advise you whether to sell or hold as I'm not aware of your circumstances and your company, but what you raised about "how you didn't expect the stock to shoot up nearly 20% more when Trump got elected when you thought it should fall" is exactly the challenge of being an active stock picker which is why my bias is towards passive index investing. Anyway, in your shoes, I probably won't buy anymore of the company's stock until I have a more diversified, core portfolio built up, or if there's a sharp market correction and your company is a blue chip that went down by 20% or more and hence it's a steal; at that point, I would take a closer look.

Your effort put towards understanding the financial stuff will serve you well, because no one cares about your money more than you. You don't have to earn a CFA, just read more personal finance blogs and browse more of MM threads. Either way, you will pay to learn, it's just a matter of whether you want to pay with your hard-earned money or with your time spent to acquire more knowledge.

Thanks for your truthful advice, appreciate that
 

Mecisteus

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ESPP is sort of a free money to you if the terms are good.

Imagine a 10% discount on current share price with no lockout period, this is a no brainier decision to make.

Participate and sell immediately you get the shares.
 

wahkao3

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any restriction on the EPS? cannot sell?
you can pm me your company ticker symbol i help u analyse your company can buy using eps or not.
 

BBCWatcher

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ESPP is sort of a free money to you if the terms are good.
And a 10% discount is terrific. Usually there is a minimum holding period, though.

Continue taking that deal -- it's an excellent one! -- but just institute a program of automatic selling. For example, on May 8 of every year (pick a random date), sell the shares that are 3 years old or older. Use the sale proceeds to dollar cost average into your reasonably well diversified alternative investment(s). Loop, repeat. Something like that works well. (Or, if you want to get slightly fancier, sell the shares that are 3 years old or older every 6 months -- on May 8 and November 8 of every year, for example. If there's a fixed trading charge, don't get too silly. A couple times per year is enough.)

Beyond your ESPP, here's what I would do:

1. Top up your and your spouse's CPF Special Accounts and, if applicable, Medisave Accounts. Claim the tax reliefs. Do that every year until you're no longer able. You might also consider Ordinary Account to Special Account conversions, depending on your housing aspirations. Stick with traditional CPF, not today's CPF Investment Scheme. (In the future CPFIS might get better, and I might change my mind, but it's best avoided right now since the investment choices are terrible.)

2. Assuming you are not a U.S. person, Singapore dollar cost average into VWRD or IWDA, as you prefer. At low or medium monthly purchases, Standard Chartered probably offers the best trading deal. At medium to high monthly purchases, Interactive Brokers probably offers the best trading deal.

VWRD is a reasonably low cost, globally diversified stock index fund, domiciled in Ireland (for tax efficiency) and traded on the London Stock Exchange. IWDA is substantially the same except without emerging market stocks. Dollar cost averaging means you pick some sustainable figure -- say, S$1,000 (or whatever) -- and buy that amount every month, reliably, for decades hopefully. You don't even look at the price. Dollar cost averaging automatically results in buying more when the price is relatively low and less when the price is relatively high. As your earnings improve, and cash starts to accumulate, you can decide to boost your monthly purchase amount, but only if the higher figure is sustainable.

3. If you accumulate cash above your UOB One account's high interest limit, use Singapore Savings Bonds (SSBs) as a helpful, reasonably high yielding, safe parking place.

That's it, really. Pretty simple.
 

unhinged_loon

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Just a counter argument:

If you have strong reasons that your company is on the path of growth, and possess bright prospects, you can consider keeping at least part of the shares as part of your portfolio. As always, do a critical analysis and also that of the risk involved.
 

Mecisteus

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And a 10% discount is terrific. Usually there is a minimum holding period, though.

Mine was a 15% discount of the lower begin or end market price for a particular period. And no lockout period. I just have to wait a few days for shares to be transferred.
 

murugaratham

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I am ok to reveal my company ticket symbol since it's on my LinkedIn anyway, I'm from MSFT, trajectory and forecasts looks very good due to cloud adoption and office 365. I don't see holding period and some colleague sell immediately to channel the funds elsewhere, some just take it as a "forced" retirement savings.

I don't have trading account yet, but wanna start.. total noob and always skeptical about huge gains.

BBCwatcher advice to get VWRD and/or IWDA is quite different from shiny things "safe for dummies like me" of buying other shares or ETF.

Does it give better yield and have higher risks? Wanna know what's the rationale.
 

BBCWatcher

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Mine was a 15% discount of the lower begin or end market price for a particular period. And no lockout period.
That's quite unusual, and congratulations for getting that deal!

An ESPP with an automatic payroll deduction uses dollar cost averaging, so with a discount, and even with a minimum holding period, it's a great deal. It's absolutely the right play to accept that deal and then have regular sales (after the minimum holding period) to avoid too much concentrated risk in one stock.
 

BBCWatcher

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BBCwatcher advice to get VWRD and/or IWDA is quite different from shiny things "safe for dummies like me" of buying other shares or ETF.
VWRD or IWDA, to be clear. You wouldn't buy both.

With either of those ETFs, you're buying the entire investible world's (or most of the world's) stocks, all at once. That's simple, and simple is more than enough.

The two ETFs you mentioned in your original post invest exclusively in Singapore listed stocks (Singtel, StarHub, CapitaLand, and so on). That would be a riskier bet in the sense of the underlying corporate performances, which is what you're betting on if you're a long-term investor buying stocks. There's some argument that there's greater currency risk when you buy global (including some local) instead of exclusively local stocks, since the performance of the local stocks is more heavily correlated with the local currency. However, you're in your 30s, not in your 60s. The combination of Singapore dollar cost averaging and long-term investing neatly takes care of that problem. Also, you'll be accumulating Singapore dollar denominated wealth anyway, including CPF and an owner-occupied home, as notable examples. And will you retire in Singapore, spending only or predominantly Singapore dollars? Not necessarily.
 
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