learning japanese

[kjaskk]

I am very confused between 実に ... and 　実は ...

Any of the seniors can explain when to use 実に　and when to use　実は

Thank you very much.

 

[replacementlamps]

This device might helps you guys

hi all,

found an old shipment of these products. brand new
thought it might be helpful for learning japanese.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/25/dictionaries-galore-seiko-and-franklins-db-j990-canons-v300/


any interest, please pm me.

 

[Niaoson]

which product are u referring to? the first, second, third or all?

what's the price also? im quite interested especially for the first one if the price is acceptable.

 

[dimitri_can]

実は->to tell you the truth... (expression)

e.g 実は、嘘ついた。貧乏です
To tell you the truth, i lied. I am a poor man

実に->indeed, really, absolutely, truly, actually, very, quite (adverb)

e.g # 実にいい天気
really good weather

# 実にその通りだ。
That's so true.〔同意の相づち。〕

 

[ilovepiano]

Lovely people, appreciate all your time and pointers.

dimitri seems to be a Japanese book depository!
---> translate: dimitri ga Nihon book depository no you desu.
Correct?

Well, which one do you think is suitable for each [ 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 ] of the paragraphs above using ふるよう / ふりそう / ふるそう / ふるらしい ?

I'm still not too sure but here's my best shot.

1. The story goes like this... I am in my room sleeping, the windows were closed and the curtains drawn. I hear some thunder, windows at neighbours' place were slammed loudly maybe because of the strong wind, I think maybe it's going to rain or something.

ふりそう
Based on my own observation, I make a prediction. Low level certainty.

2. Meanwhile, my friend calls me to say we are not meeting later because of possible bad weather, seems we cannot go jogging as it's raining later. Alright, I think she just want to stay home because she just came back from shopping...

ふるそう
Based on info gathered, I predict. Similar to ふるらしい but I don't believe info so I use そう, not らしい.

3. By now, my eyes are wide open, still lying on the bed, I grabbed the remote nearby and switched on the tv, the weather forecast says there will be bad weather, raining islandwide plus thunder and all that. Okay, so now I just stay home and play some computer games.

ふるらしい
Based on info gathered, I predict. Similar to ふるそう but I believe info so I use らしい, not そう.

4. I get out of bed to brush my teeth, and as I look out the window, I see lightning in the distance, the ground outside is all wet, and the wind is blowing the rain through the window. Now it is raining...

ふるよう
Based on what I see, I predict/comment. High level certainty.

Erm... I hope at least #2 and #3 are correct? Would it also be ok to switch answers #1 and #4?

I'll try to explain the use of the various forms using the あめ example too.

あめがふるようだ - (Looking out the window, you see people carrying umbrella) It looks like it will rain. (Judgement made using your observations/info perceived from the surrounding)

あめがふりそうだ - (Looking up the sky, you see dark clouds) It looks like it will rain. (What you see, based on your sense of sight.)

あめがふるそうだ - (You got the info from weather report or a friend) I heard that it will rain. (Purely just relaying the info you perceived)

あめがふるらしい - (There hasn't been any rain for the past 1 week and according to the weather report) It looks like it will rain. (Similar to ふるそう, judgement made based on a definite source/reason)

Thanks! This is really useful!
Small clarification: ふりそう must be based on sight only?

 

[azumangadaioh]

Just to clarify something, since the friend said おいしいそう, he too heard it from someone else as well.



This part is incorrect. Since one has already eaten the thing and confirmed it delicious, it cannot be おいしそう but should be おいしかった instead.

おいしいそう - Yes. In this story, my friend heard it from someone else

I agree it is おいしかった, but at the point of the conversation between me and my friend [ with the food still in my mouth ], it is still in present tense, but of course if I were to relate to someone else or talked about it 5, 10mins later it becomes past tense. My story is just trying to illustrate examples using simple present tense for the person who originally posted the question.

 

[azumangadaioh]

don't know if おいしいよう is grammaticaly correct or not, but never heard anyone saying "おいしいよう".

Just quoting example, omitted polite sentence final to try to make it easier to understand to become *non-polite* form...

 

[azumangadaioh]

I'll try to explain the use of the various forms using the あめ example too.

あめがふるようだ - (Looking out the window, you see people carrying umbrella) It looks like it will rain. (Judgement made using your observations/info perceived from the surrounding)

あめがふりそうだ - (Looking up the sky, you see dark clouds) It looks like it will rain. (What you see, based on your sense of sight.)

あめがふるそうだ - (You got the info from weather report or a friend) I heard that it will rain. (Purely just relaying the info you perceived)

あめがふるらしい - (There hasn't been any rain for the past 1 week and according to the weather report) It looks like it will rain. (Similar to ふるそう, judgement made based on a definite source/reason)

Yeah.. This is what I have been trying to describe...

 

[azumangadaioh]

Hi there~

Just wanted to update on my second lesson at Bunka. XD It went systematically like last time. We learnt how to tell time, then we learnt the hiragana. We actually finished all hiragana already... I think it's amazing how fast they teach hiragana, but we still need to put in effort to memorise everything.

After the short ten minute break, we learnt the six forms, but only for "Group One verbs". I got the hang of it pretty fast. But it's the conversation that confuses me. >.< Last lesson, we learnt that if A is asking B "are you coming?", B will answer "yes, I am going" and not "yes, I am coming". But this lesson, sensei said that we can answer "yes, I am coming". And that's where the confusion starts.

She tried to explain that in the first situation, ["are you coming?" ~ "yes, I am going"] applies when the two parties are talking on the phone. Otherwise, if the two parties are together, for example, "are you coming for next week's class?" then you can answer "yes, I am coming".

At least, that's what I understood from what she said... Any advice?

By the way, it's the "iku" and "kuru" verbs - "to go" and "to come". That's the only two verbs that we've learnt so far...

I don't recall my sensei taught us something like that when I had my Ele1 9mths ago...

1. A san asks B san on the phone, "are you coming to the party later ?"
B san replies "yes, I am going to the party later"

2. A san asks B san while sitting together, "are you coming to the party later ?"
B san replies "yes, I am coming to the party later"

I think it is just a culturally different way of replying over the phone and in person. Just like in English we say "take medicine", in Mandarin we say "eat medicine", and in Japanese "drink medicine"...


Guess you can just note down separately from your main Bunka notes and summarise them in your own Japanese culture notebook as you go along...

And if your sensei has not informed you about a test, get ready for a surprise test in either your 3rd or 4th lesson, test content will be your 6 forms and hiragana, and 3 to 5 translation questions.

 

[azumangadaioh]

Lovely people, appreciate all your time and pointers.

dimitri seems to be a Japanese book depository!
---> translate: dimitri ga Nihon book depository no you desu.
Correct?



I'm still not too sure but here's my best shot.

1. The story goes like this... I am in my room sleeping, the windows were closed and the curtains drawn. I hear some thunder, windows at neighbours' place were slammed loudly maybe because of the strong wind, I think maybe it's going to rain or something.

ふりそう
Based on my own observation, I make a prediction. Low level certainty.

2. Meanwhile, my friend calls me to say we are not meeting later because of possible bad weather, seems we cannot go jogging as it's raining later. Alright, I think she just want to stay home because she just came back from shopping...

ふるそう
Based on info gathered, I predict. Similar to ふるらしい but I don't believe info so I use そう, not らしい.

3. By now, my eyes are wide open, still lying on the bed, I grabbed the remote nearby and switched on the tv, the weather forecast says there will be bad weather, raining islandwide plus thunder and all that. Okay, so now I just stay home and play some computer games.

ふるらしい
Based on info gathered, I predict. Similar to ふるそう but I believe info so I use らしい, not そう.

4. I get out of bed to brush my teeth, and as I look out the window, I see lightning in the distance, the ground outside is all wet, and the wind is blowing the rain through the window. Now it is raining...

ふるよう
Based on what I see, I predict/comment. High level certainty.

Erm... I hope at least #2 and #3 are correct? Would it also be ok to switch answers #1 and #4?




Thanks! This is really useful!
Small clarification: ふりそう must be based on sight only?

Answers.. Only just #1 and #4 are swapped... よう is always indirect [ this part I am sure ], using logic / common sense / feelings...
Like if a tissue dropped on the ground when walking below a block of flats, I deduce that someone threw it, although I did not witnessed that. Or if someone asks my friend if she is single, always calls her everyday, arranging to meet her for lurch, we believe that this person likes my friend.. so よう can be applied here...

ふりそう don't have to be by sight, but has to be directly perceived by you [ includes 5 senses ], without having to deduce... like if I am a blind person [ no offence to those visually impaired ], rain lands on my face and body causing me to feel all wet, so I can use ふりそう since I cannot see but I can hear and feel the rain directly...

Let me know if I am wrong

 

[ilovepiano]

Yes, I thought so too after thinking more on hayashi's summary and rereading my notes. I think I see it now. Thanks.
Funny examples btw. Lol... but very effective.
*kowtows to your brilliance*

 

[azumangadaioh]

This is good exercise for me too. After searching and rechecking past notes [ sensei described the differences between the 4 kinds of usage in the same lesson ], now able to remember the different uses...

 

[dimitri_can]

Lovely people, appreciate all your time and pointers.

dimitri seems to be a Japanese book depository!
---> translate: dimitri ga Nihon book depository no you desu.
Correct?

The value of all my books added up going to 6k already... 期待してます！！！

 

[hayashi-87]

ふりそう don't have to be by sight, but has to be directly perceived by you [ includes 5 senses ], without having to deduce... like if I am a blind person [ no offence to those visually impaired ], rain lands on my face and body causing me to feel all wet, so I can use ふりそう since I cannot see but I can hear and feel the rain directly...

Let me know if I am wrong

I'm afraid I disagree. I was taught that it's based simply on your sight, or rather the physical look of the object. You might wanna check with your sensei again. For the visually impaired case, I think ふっているらしい would be a much better choice.

Btw, azumangadaioh-san, are you still studying at Bunka? Who's your sensei?

 

[dimitri_can]

I'm afraid I disagree. I was taught that it's based simply on your sight, or rather the physical look of the object. You might wanna check with your sensei again. For the visually impaired case, I think ふっているらしい would be a much better choice.

Btw, azumangadaioh-san, are you still studying at Bunka? Who's your sensei?

i'll go dig out my resources later when i reach home... then we can see...

 

[maryamisme]

Hmmm....

Kuru - To where the speaker is (at that point of time)
Iku - To places away from speaker

It's pretty much like English. Hope it clears some doubts. =)

I don't recall my sensei taught us something like that when I had my Ele1 9mths ago...

1. A san asks B san on the phone, "are you coming to the party later ?"
B san replies "yes, I am going to the party later"

2. A san asks B san while sitting together, "are you coming to the party later ?"
B san replies "yes, I am coming to the party later"

I think it is just a culturally different way of replying over the phone and in person. Just like in English we say "take medicine", in Mandarin we say "eat medicine", and in Japanese "drink medicine"...


Guess you can just note down separately from your main Bunka notes and summarise them in your own Japanese culture notebook as you go along...

And if your sensei has not informed you about a test, get ready for a surprise test in either your 3rd or 4th lesson, test content will be your 6 forms and hiragana, and 3 to 5 translation questions.

So in short, it just depends on where the two speakers are... I understand now. The examples really helped. Thank you very much.

And no, my sensei has not said anything about a test. But she said there'll be a test every week, just to see whether we revised the previous lesson. And what do you mean by translation questions? What do we have to translate? Sentences?

 

[demid]

I agree it is おいしかった, but at the point of the conversation between me and my friend [ with the food still in my mouth ], it is still in present tense, but of course if I were to relate to someone else or talked about it 5, 10mins later it becomes past tense. My story is just trying to illustrate examples using simple present tense for the person who originally posted the question.

おいしそう is not usable in this context as well even if it is in present tense with the food still inside one's mouth. The moment you put it in your mouth, おいしそう became unusable. If your friend asked you how it tasted when you still had it in your mouth, the correct response would have been おいしい。

The only time you can use おいしそう is when you haven't tasted it yet.

ふりそう don't have to be by sight, but has to be directly perceived by you [ includes 5 senses ], without having to deduce... like if I am a blind person [ no offence to those visually impaired ], rain lands on my face and body causing me to feel all wet, so I can use ふりそう since I cannot see but I can hear and feel the rain directly...

I too have to disagree with the above statement.

Remember that minna no nihongo spilt this grammar into 2 as there were 2 meanings.


The first meaning is for い形容詞 and な形容詞.

い形容詞minusい+そうだ or な形容詞minusな+そうだ is only by sight.

I'll quote directly from a book to spare us the ambiguity.

ある対象の外観の印象からそれの性質を推察して述べる。

The key word here is 外観, so for this meaning, it is only by sight.

The second meaning is for V-ます形+そうだ.

動きや変化を表す動詞につくと、そのような動き/変化を起こす兆候を表します。

This part about predicting that something is going to happen. So if it is already raining as used in the example above, this grammar cannot be used.

EDIT:

However, it seems that azumangadaioh is correct in saying that V-ます形+そうだ isn't only for sight.

I was also under the impression that it is only for sight at first, but after consulting the books, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Will research and post later.

 

[dimitri_can]

I agree it is おいしかった, but at the point of the conversation between me and my friend [ with the food still in my mouth ], it is still in present tense, but of course if I were to relate to someone else or talked about it 5, 10mins later it becomes past tense. My story is just trying to illustrate examples using simple present tense for the person who originally posted the question.

おいしそう is not usable in this context as well even if it is in present tense with the food still inside one's mouth. The moment you put it in your mouth, おいしそう became unusable. If your friend asked you how it tasted when you still had it in your mouth, the correct response would have been おいしい。

The only time you can use おいしそう is when you haven't tasted it yet.

demid is correct on this one...

e.g: you mentioned

"but at the point of the conversation between me and my friend [ with the food still in my mouth, it is still in present tense, but of course if I were to relate to someone else or talked about it 5, 10mins later it becomes past tense"

so if you ate the bread which is still in your mouth, do you say

1) パンをたべます
2) パンをたべています
3) パンをたべました

You won't say number 1 right? Same logic as what demid has been trying to explain to you..

Maybe you can approach your sensei for clarification again?

More information from my library.

Minna no Nihongo (This is a Japanese endorsed book used in Japan)

 

[demid]

Here are some examples of V-ます形+そうだ sentences that does not involve sight.

今年は雨が多いから、桜はすぐに散ってしまいそうだ。

今日中に原稿が書けそうだ。

今夜は涼しいからぐっすり眠れそうだ。

These sentences carry the possibility of something happening after some judgment and have nothing to do with sight.

However, い形容詞minusい+そうだ or な形容詞minusな+そうだ is only by sight.

Haha.... This has been a good discussion. Made me take notice of stuff i never took notice before.

Thanks to whoever started off this discussion.

 

[hayashi-87]

More updates on ～そうだ（様子）

Juz to update more on ～そうだ（様子）.

Indeed, when the form is used on verb, it may not necessarily be based on your sight. It can be a supposition of the future based on a series of events (till date). Examples are just like what demid-san has given. =) Sorry for not realizing this sooner.


According to 現代日本語文法概説:
"...「しそうだ」は、あるもの(ごと)の状態が、そこから現在あるいは近い将来
に対してある推量が成り立つような状態だ、ということを表わします。

．．．

おもに視覚から得た直接的な情報によりますが、それまでの成り行きから将
来を判断するような場合もあります。

形容詞に接続する場合は、外見を推量の根拠として、その外見以外のことを
推量します。..."


It really has been a very good discussion. とても勉強になりました。