learning japanese

[dimitri_can]

”いい水”　はなに？

その正反対は　悪い水？

Yahoo! はあなたの親友です。

Yahoo!

 

[dimitri_can]

since i don't have anyone asking for N2/N3 prep class, i'll change it to a beginner class..

Starting date: March 11th Sun 1-3.30pm
Cost: contact me for details
Max class size: 6
Location: town area
Free trial lesson available. (^_^)

 

[nihongonoob]

Dimitri_can makes learning Japanese fun and interesting. You can learn a lot from him because besides teaching the syllabus from Minna no Nihongo, he teaches real Japanese which you will not learn in a school environment. Another important aspect is the class size. It is small so each student gets ample attention.

 

[dimitri_can]

Thanks for the great comment. (^_^)

 

[Vampireness]

Hi everyone!

I've got a few questions which may or may not be complicated and confusing . . . hope someone can help me out!

1. I have purchased the Genki 1 workbook few years ago and used it some, here and there because the textbook is SO expensive, however, I've decided to buy the textbook, despite the cost for a used book. . . and so there is Genki 2, and of course the second edition (price is a little more insane), my question is . . . . is it a good idea to move from Genki to Minna No Nihongo series?

2. Minna no Nihongo, I've always only known of the Japanese version and recently came across the Asian versions and was wondering what is the difference? I know that one is printed in Japan and the other is from Malaysia.

- The Japan version has
Minna No Nihongo textbook 1
Minna No Nihongo workbook 1
Minna No Nihongo English Translation and Grammatical Notes 1

Minna No Nihongo textbook 2
Minna No Nihongo workbook 2
Minna No Nihongo English Translation and Grammatical Notes 2

Minna No Nihongo CDs but not too sure about it. I'm aware there are also many more in the series, like Kanji and listening too . . .

- The Asian Edition has:

Minna no Nihongo main textbook 1-1 lesson 1 - 13
Minna no Nihongo Translation and Grammatical book 1-1 lesson 1-13
Minna no Nihongo main textbook 1-2 lesson 14 - 23? (not sure)
Minna no Nihongo Translation and Grammatical book 1 - 2 lesson 14-23?
Minna no Nihongo CD 1-1
Minna no Nihongo CD 1-2

Minna no Nihongo main textbook 2-1 lesson 1 - 13
Minna no Nihongo Translation and Grammatical book 2-1 lesson 1-13
Minna no Nihongo main textbook 2-2 lesson 14 - 23? (not sure)
Minna no Nihongo Translation and Grammatical book 2 - 2 lesson 14-23?

No CD for 2 (I think . . )

- How do these books compare to the Japanese version? Does Minna no Nihongo 1-1 to 2-2 complete the Japanese version of Minna no Nihongo Bk.1 - 2? It's supposed to be a cheaper alternative but the book is broken up into so many parts, that I'm confused and you end up buying 8 books?

- I also didn't notice any answers while looking through the book, did I miss something? Genki has an answer key . . . .

- The Asian version doesn't have any workbook?

- While looking through the Asian version, I saw no teaching of Kanji, so I'm right to assume Minna No Nihongo Japanese and Asian, does not teach Kanji?

- I read this review http://www.amazon.com/Minna-Nihongo...tBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R3GQXX52BHS5DQ by Bill Jones and it concerns me, since it states that -masu form is taught instead of plain form. Since, I used the Genki 1 textbook pdf format, I know it does teach from the plain form, it does seem backwards indeed . . . so is the Minna No Nihongo Asian version the same??

3. I've read where people mention previously in this thread to skip JLPT 4 and go for 3 but now that there is a JLPT 5, what's it like?

4. Dimitri_can I've seen you mention, where you have classes, so I guess you're giving group tuition in a public location?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[dimitri_can]

Hi,

see my reply.

Hi everyone!

1. I have purchased the Genki 1 workbook few years ago and used it some, here and there because the textbook is SO expensive, however, I've decided to buy the textbook, despite the cost for a used book. . . and so there is Genki 2, and of course the second edition (price is a little more insane), my question is . . . . is it a good idea to move from Genki to Minna No Nihongo series?

I think it has its flaws and merits. Genki is generally used by Americans. Asians generally use Minna no Nihongo instead.

2. Minna no Nihongo, I've always only known of the Japanese version and recently came across the Asian versions and was wondering what is the difference? I know that one is printed in Japan and the other is from Malaysia.

- The Japan version has
Minna No Nihongo textbook 1
Minna No Nihongo workbook 1
Minna No Nihongo English Translation and Grammatical Notes 1

Minna No Nihongo textbook 2
Minna No Nihongo workbook 2
Minna No Nihongo English Translation and Grammatical Notes 2

Minna No Nihongo CDs but not too sure about it. I'm aware there are also many more in the series, like Kanji and listening too . . .

- The Asian Edition has:

Minna no Nihongo main textbook 1-1 lesson 1 - 13
Minna no Nihongo Translation and Grammatical book 1-1 lesson 1-13
Minna no Nihongo main textbook 1-2 lesson 14 - 23? (not sure)
Minna no Nihongo Translation and Grammatical book 1 - 2 lesson 14-23?
Minna no Nihongo CD 1-1
Minna no Nihongo CD 1-2

Minna no Nihongo main textbook 2-1 lesson 1 - 13
Minna no Nihongo Translation and Grammatical book 2-1 lesson 1-13
Minna no Nihongo main textbook 2-2 lesson 14 - 23? (not sure)
Minna no Nihongo Translation and Grammatical book 2 - 2 lesson 14-23?

No CD for 2 (I think . . )

- How do these books compare to the Japanese version? Does Minna no Nihongo 1-1 to 2-2 complete the Japanese version of Minna no Nihongo Bk.1 - 2? It's supposed to be a cheaper alternative but the book is broken up into so many parts, that I'm confused and you end up buying 8 books?

Minna no Nihongo 1 (Japanese version) =Minna no Nihongo 1-1 and 1-2 (Asian Version)

Minna no Nihongo 2 (Japanese version) =Minna no Nihongo 2-1 and 2-2 (Asian Version)

So in Japanese version: there are 4 books
Minna no Nihongo 1(Textbook) Chapter 1-25
Minna no Nihongo 1(Translation and Grammatical Notes)

Minna no Nihongo 2(Textbook) Chapter 26-50
Minna no Nihongo 2(Translation and Grammatical Notes)

These translate to 8 books in the Asian version.
Minna no Nihongo 1-1(Textbook) Chapter 1-13
Minna no Nihongo 1-1(Translation and Grammatical Notes)
Minna no Nihongo 1-2(Textbook) Chapter 14-25
Minna no Nihongo 1-2(Translation and Grammatical Notes)

Minna no Nihongo 2-1(Textbook) Chapter 26-38
Minna no Nihongo 2-1(Translation and Grammatical Notes)
Minna no Nihongo 2-2(Textbook) Chapter 39-50
Minna no Nihongo 2-2(Translation and Grammatical Notes)

- I also didn't notice any answers while looking through the book, did I miss something? Genki has an answer key . . . .

The answer key is at the back of the book.

- The Asian version doesn't have any workbook?

Asian version doesn't have a workbook. Use the one from Japanese version

- While looking through the Asian version, I saw no teaching of Kanji, so I'm right to assume Minna No Nihongo Japanese and Asian, does not teach Kanji?

Nope. There's a book on Kanji for this.

- I read this review Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Minna no Nihongo, Book 1 (Bk. 1) (Japanese Edition) by Bill Jones and it concerns me, since it states that -masu form is taught instead of plain form. Since, I used the Genki 1 textbook pdf format, I know it does teach from the plain form, it does seem backwards indeed . . . so is the Minna No Nihongo Asian version the same??

Plain form is taught at Chapter 20 of Minna no Nihongo. It's always good to start off with the polite form of the language, then move on to learning the plain form of the language.

3. I've read where people mention previously in this thread to skip JLPT 4 and go for 3 but now that there is a JLPT 5, what's it like?

I did my JLPT 4 (N4) in 2006 then jumped to JLPT 2 (N2) in 2007. =)
Hard i would say.

4. Dimitri_can I've seen you mention, where you have classes, so I guess you're giving group tuition in a public location?

Yes, i teach in a restaurant which is quite quiet, and i don't take more than 8 students in a class. Students can munch something and learn Japanese at the same time. Students are happy, i am happy too. Thus, the cost of the lessons is greatly reduced. I personally believe that, if you want to learn something, u can learn it anywhere, as long as you have the heart and determination to learn it. =)

If you want, u are welcome to try a trial lesson and experience for yourself.. =)

 

[haato89]

3. I've read where people mention previously in this thread to skip JLPT 4 and go for 3 but now that there is a JLPT 5, what's it like?

Hi here's my 2 cents worth =)

I took N5 last year and passed after a short course covering till lesson 10 of the Minna no Nihongo asian ver book in 2010 and 1 week of cramming past year questions just before the paper. If I were you I would skip N5 (which is the same level as the old JLPT4 I heard) and go straight to N4.

I just started on Minna no Nihongo (plan to move on to lessons 31-35 this week) and I must say it's very comprehensive and the exercises give you lots of opportunity to practice. After the JLPT in July I'll have to look for a teacher to move to the next level because even though I can memorise stuff my pronunciation is probably horrendous. All my Japanese friends say I sound gaijin

Um I have another question, perhaps dimitri_can can help me out...Apparently the scoring system for JLPT isn't only based on the number of correct answers and it's also based on the answering patterns. Is it possible to score full marks even with a couple of wrong answers? I remember feeling mortified after overhearing other examinees' answers after the first paper and realizing that I mixed up 吹いて and　降って in one question. So I couldn't believe it when my test report said I scored full marks for that section.

It probably won't make a difference for me since I've moved on...but I've been curious. お願い〜

 

[dimitri_can]

Um I have another question, perhaps dimitri_can can help me out...Apparently the scoring system for JLPT isn't only based on the number of correct answers and it's also based on the answering patterns. Is it possible to score full marks even with a couple of wrong answers? I remember feeling mortified after overhearing other examinees' answers after the first paper and realizing that I mixed up 吹いて and　降って in one question. So I couldn't believe it when my test report said I scored full marks for that section.

Correction on the part in red.

It's not based on the number of correct answers. It's based on the answering patterns+moderation, you will get ur full marks.

 

[vienne]

Correction on the part in red.

It's not based on the number of correct answers. It's based on the answering patterns+moderation, you will get ur full marks.

Ahh, this explains .. I'm still in denial state from my JLPT n2 results score.. (it certainly looks like there's a printing error..)

 

[dimitri_can]

Ahh, this explains .. I'm still in denial state from my JLPT n2 results score.. (it certainly looks like there's a printing error..)

Lol.... there's a big big mystery behind this... i just managed to find out some more nice details about this.

Apparently, someone did a lot of research on what N1-N5 people can do after they pass the exam. Like N1 people still find it quite hard to write mails in Keigo. 3 (quite difficult, but still can manage) out of a scale of 4. People who pass N3 cannot really write a mail in Keigo. (2.5: not really can do it) out of 4.

 

[vienne]

Haha. I admit. if really ask me anything on keigo now. ... i .. -.-'''''

 

[dimitri_can]

Haha. I admit. if really ask me anything on keigo now. ... i .. -.-'''''

Keigo is important when it comes to working in Japan or working in Japanese companies. I would say Business Japanese is a separate thing by itself and it took me a lot of experiences and practical lessons to learn it.

 

[Vampireness]

Hi dimtri_can,

Thank you for replying!

I think it has its flaws and merits. Genki is generally used by Americans. Asians generally use Minna no Nihongo instead.

That doesn't really explain anything based on the structure of the book.

Why is it that you mentioned "Genki is generally used by Americans", what about Australians and Canadians studying Japanese?

Why do Asians generally use Minna no Nihongo? Is it the cost? Are the explainations simplified?

I'm not getting any idea of the books in comparism.

If, I were to finish Genki 1, I wanted to know, where I should begin, should I choose to start Minna No Nihongo Asian edition.

Minna no Nihongo 1 (Japanese version) =Minna no Nihongo 1-1 and 1-2 (Asian Version)

Minna no Nihongo 2 (Japanese version) =Minna no Nihongo 2-1 and 2-2 (Asian Version)

So in Japanese version: there are 4 books
Minna no Nihongo 1(Textbook) Chapter 1-25
Minna no Nihongo 1(Translation and Grammatical Notes)

Minna no Nihongo 2(Textbook) Chapter 26-50
Minna no Nihongo 2(Translation and Grammatical Notes)

These translate to 8 books in the Asian version.
Minna no Nihongo 1-1(Textbook) Chapter 1-13
Minna no Nihongo 1-1(Translation and Grammatical Notes)
Minna no Nihongo 1-2(Textbook) Chapter 14-25
Minna no Nihongo 1-2(Translation and Grammatical Notes)

Minna no Nihongo 2-1(Textbook) Chapter 26-38
Minna no Nihongo 2-1(Translation and Grammatical Notes)
Minna no Nihongo 2-2(Textbook) Chapter 39-50
Minna no Nihongo 2-2(Translation and Grammatical Notes)

Man, I did some crazy calculations, so I was right, it's a total of 8 books, so that costs like . . . S$124+/-

While, the Japanese version costs about S$224 +/- Am I right?

That's like about a difference of S$100 . . .

The answer key is at the back of the book.

I did look at the back but still couldn't find it. . . was it on the T/B book or the textbook?

Asian version doesn't have a workbook. Use the one from Japanese version

Does the Japanese workbook have the answers at the back then?

Nope. There's a book on Kanji for this.

Yeah, I thought so. That's getting expensive.

Genki workbook has quite a bit of Kanji at the back. 100+ or so
Since, there is no need to buy translation for it, it replaces the extra cost of book.
They don't teach stroke order for the Kanji though. As for the Hiragana and Katakana, they do teach the strokes. I think, I didn't see that as well in Minna no Nihongo (Hiragana and Katakana practice?) . . . .

Although, I know that Minna no Nihongo's Kanji book isn't the only way to go for learing Kanji and there are cheaper alternatives, but it's nice if the book includes and covers quite a bit, instead of breaking it into several bits.

Plain form is taught at Chapter 20 of Minna no Nihongo. It's always good to start off with the polite form of the language, then move on to learning the plain form of the language.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood what that article meant or what I was trying to get across.

Furthermore, all the grammatical changes are taught starting from the -masu verb form! If you do this it's almost impossible to find any pattern in Japanese verb changes, therefore learning the grammar doesn't come about through understanding but from rote memorization. Grammar is too complex to learn this way, it needs to be understood not memorized. The authors act as though there is no such thing as the plain form of a verb, which is just crazy.

What the person and I am trying to say is that, they're not teaching to form verbs from the stem word but from the -masu verb. Not that it's better to start off with "polite form" or "plain form", it was about "plain form of a verb", and understanding of the verb. Hence, the reason he mentioned "plain form" of a verb.

I did my JLPT 4 (N4) in 2006 then jumped to JLPT 2 (N2) in 2007. =)
Hard i would say.

Hmm, I see. . . .
Think haato89 answered this part on JLPT N5.

Yes, i teach in a restaurant which is quite quiet, and i don't take more than 8 students in a class. Students can munch something and learn Japanese at the same time. Students are happy, i am happy too. Thus, the cost of the lessons is greatly reduced. I personally believe that, if you want to learn something, u can learn it anywhere, as long as you have the heart and determination to learn it. =)
If you want, u are welcome to try a trial lesson and experience for yourself.. =)

Ahh, I thought so.
No, that's okay. I prefer to study on my own, for now at least. I would prefer a classroom environment, anyways.

Hi haato89

Hi here's my 2 cents worth =)

I took N5 last year and passed after a short course covering till lesson 10 of the Minna no Nihongo asian ver book in 2010 and 1 week of cramming past year questions just before the paper. If I were you I would skip N5 (which is the same level as the old JLPT4 I heard) and go straight to N4.

I just started on Minna no Nihongo (plan to move on to lessons 31-35 this week) and I must say it's very comprehensive and the exercises give you lots of opportunity to practice. After the JLPT in July I'll have to look for a teacher to move to the next level because even though I can memorise stuff my pronunciation is probably horrendous. All my Japanese friends say I sound gaijin

Thanks for the reply!!

Ahh, I thought someone might suggest skipping the JLPT N5 lol.
I guess we'll see . . . sometimes, it just feels like a small accomplishment if I go at one step at a time and get one cert, and move onto the next. I might feel overwhelmed trying to learn over 200 and trying the N4.

So you're going for the JLPT N4 in July?

Really? Lol. Awwhs. If you're around Japanese friends, shouldn't your pronunciation improve? Now, I'm curious as to why you say it's horrendous lol.

I don't have pronunciation problems but because I haven't really studied, I don't have much vocabulary or grammar so I can't answer nor talk fast and my reading is super slow (don't know much Kanji), but my listening is the best out of all the skills.

 

[dimitri_can]

Hi dimtri_can,

That doesn't really explain anything based on the structure of the book.

Why is it that you mentioned "Genki is generally used by Americans", what about Australians and Canadians studying Japanese?

Why do Asians generally use Minna no Nihongo? Is it the cost? Are the explainations simplified?

I'm not getting any idea of the books in comparism.

If, I were to finish Genki 1, I wanted to know, where I should begin, should I choose to start Minna No Nihongo Asian edition.

It's quite hard to explain to u the structure, unless u have both books side by side and u can compare the 2 books.

What i can advise u is that MNN is generally more for classroom usage, compared to Genki which you can kinda use it as a self study material...

Because the topics are not presented the same way, it's quite hard to gauge. If you finish Genki 1, i think you can try book 2-1 in Minna no Nihongo.

Genki was written to include Kanji practice, whereas Minna no Nihongo has it as a separate book. Genki has a lot of English explanations in every sentence. Minna no Nihongo only has it for it's main section, the sub sections, they do not have.

From what i know, Australians and Canadians tend to use Genki as well, with some schools using MNN.

Man, I did some crazy calculations, so I was right, it's a total of 8 books, so that costs like . . . S$124+/-

While, the Japanese version costs about S$224 +/- Am I right?

That's like about a difference of S$100 . . .

Paper quality is different. The paper used in the japanese version, my students found that when you read the Japanese version one, your eyes feel more comfortable. =)

I did look at the back but still couldn't find it. . . was it on the T/B book or the textbook?

Does the Japanese workbook have the answers at the back then?

If you are using the Japanese edition, they have it separately as a book. You have to purchase the book. In the Asian version, it's included.

Yeah, I thought so. That's getting expensive.

Genki workbook has quite a bit of Kanji at the back. 100+ or so
Since, there is no need to buy translation for it, it replaces the extra cost of book.
They don't teach stroke order for the Kanji though. As for the Hiragana and Katakana, they do teach the strokes. I think, I didn't see that as well in Minna no Nihongo (Hiragana and Katakana practice?) . . . .

Although, I know that Minna no Nihongo's Kanji book isn't the only way to go for learing Kanji and there are cheaper alternatives, but it's nice if the book includes and covers quite a bit, instead of breaking it into several bits.

There's a separate book used by teachers. If you are doing self-study, it's best to use Genki. MNN is more for classroom usage.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood what that article meant or what I was trying to get across.

Furthermore, all the grammatical changes are taught starting from the -masu verb form! If you do this it's almost impossible to find any pattern in Japanese verb changes, therefore learning the grammar doesn't come about through understanding but from rote memorization. Grammar is too complex to learn this way, it needs to be understood not memorized. The authors act as though there is no such thing as the plain form of a verb, which is just crazy.

What the person and I am trying to say is that, they're not teaching to form verbs from the stem word but from the -masu verb. Not that it's better to start off with "polite form" or "plain form", it was about "plain form of a verb", and understanding of the verb. Hence, the reason he mentioned "plain form" of a verb.

Don't understand what you mean here....
What the guy pointed out in red is wrong, imho.
Japanese start learning Japanese from Masu-form, not plain form. Thus MNN also introduces it in this way.
There's a technique to do interchange of verbs from masu-form which not many teachers teach. Maybe the guy did not learn how to do it.

Really? Lol. Awwhs. If you're around Japanese friends, shouldn't your pronunciation improve? Now, I'm curious as to why you say it's horrendous lol.

I don't have pronunciation problems but because I haven't really studied, I don't have much vocabulary or grammar so I can't answer nor talk fast and my reading is super slow (don't know much Kanji), but my listening is the best out of all the skills.

Japanese usually don't really correct you, even you asked them for it...

Hope this answers ur questions. Have you did a quick runthrough of the topics presented in MNN? E.g, like know what is being taught in every chapter..

 

[dimitri_can]

Wow, how come so big?

 

[plutoplace]

Wow, how come so big?

Got formatting error...

 

[dimitri_can]

Go change...

 

[haato89]

Thanks for the reply!!

Ahh, I thought someone might suggest skipping the JLPT N5 lol.
I guess we'll see . . . sometimes, it just feels like a small accomplishment if I go at one step at a time and get one cert, and move onto the next. I might feel overwhelmed trying to learn over 200 and trying the N4.

Haha that's what I thought. I was terrified of failing the JLPT N4 which is why I decided to just take the N5. But you see there's alot of time between now and July. I suggest going thru the N5 syllabus and doing the test papers INCLUDING listening (the format's a bit different from the usual MOE listening compres back in sch so that took some getting used to).

I guess it depends on how much time you want to spend studying. IMHO, if I was able to pass the N5 papers well by mid-April (i.e. 1-2 mistakes max per section) then I would be pretty comfortable gunning for N4 in July.

So you're going for the JLPT N4 in July?

I intend to do N3 in July. WAIT hear me out. I'll be graduating in April which means that I will have NOTHING to do till my grad trip in mid June. Job hunting is over (thankfully) and work-related stuff only starts in mid July. So I intend to mug reallyyyy intensively for N3 (say clock 8 hours a day on that) and I believe I can do it.

I'm working on the N4 material now which seems ok. If I can't get a comfortable pass by mid April (JLPT registration ends around that time) I'll just sign up for N4 in July.

The plan is to start N2(Jul 2013 paper) with my boyfriend after he graduates and returns to SG in July. For N2 we'll definitely have to work under a tutor.

No, that's okay. I prefer to study on my own, for now at least. I would prefer a classroom environment, anyways.

Yup I think self-study for N5 is definitely possible...that's how I did most of my study save for that course in 2010.

Really? Lol. Awwhs. If you're around Japanese friends, shouldn't your pronunciation improve? Now, I'm curious as to why you say it's horrendous lol.

Ok it's not horrendous in the sense that when I was in Japan shopkeepers/trainmasters/other people in general were able to understand me...even with no gesticulating on my part! (yay) But it sounds 'different' and I'm not sure whether I saying the words with the right intonation. And Japanese friends will always be polite and tell you that it's very good already but just...different.

I think dimitri_can posted some images of how pronunciation is taught. (the phrases with the horizontal lines at the top/bottom) I really want to find out more about that....and MNN doesn't really teach you. The most you can do is to try and mimic the taped convos. Even then I'm still not confident

I don't have pronunciation problems but because I haven't really studied, I don't have much vocabulary or grammar so I can't answer nor talk fast and my reading is super slow (don't know much Kanji), but my listening is the best out of all the skills.

The good thing about Japanese is that pronunciation/intonation isn't as crucial as sayyyy Mandarin or Cantonese. My family and my bf keeps teasing me about my bad Cantonese because I always mispronounce phrases with the wrong 'tone' which changes the meaning altogether. But you don't have that problem with Japanese. Kaze is kaze regardless of how high or low you pitch the syllables.

 

[dimitri_can]

I think dimitri_can posted some images of how pronunciation is taught. (the phrases with the horizontal lines at the top/bottom) I really want to find out more about that....and MNN doesn't really teach you. The most you can do is to try and mimic the taped convos. Even then I'm still not confident

Correction: MNN does teach that. If you have the book, see page 4 of the textbook. (^_^)

Will be waiting for you for me to guide u on the correct pronunciation.

JLPT N3 sample questions: http://www.jlpt.jp/samples/n3.html

Kaze is kaze regardless of how high or low you pitch the syllables.

Hashi (bridge) and Hashi (chopsticks) has different tones. =)

 

[haato89]

Correction: MNN does teach that. If you have the book, see page 4 of the textbook. (^_^)

え〜〜My book doesn't have it. I'm using the Book 2 MNN Japanese version. :S

Yea I really need the lesson from you to check myself and make sure I'm on the right track >< But now I'm focusing on schoolwork and finishing MNN book 2

Hashi (bridge) and Hashi (chopsticks) has different tones. =)

ack. I didn't know that. Both sound just...hashi to me. (Vampireness see what I mean) Sigh I'm really not there yet まだまだね〜 *shakes head*

Actually I always thought you were supposed to infer from the context when you have words like hashi...