learning japanese

[iamvear]

Has anyone been taught by Bessho sensei, Takahashi sensei or Onishi sensei at Ikoma? Who will you recommend for a beginner like me?

Hello there I am currently taking my pre advanced class with onishi sensei at ikoma. I think she quite a nice teacher and explains the grammer points rather well.

 

[dimitri_can]

I was under bessho sensei for a term. Then switched class to another sensei. I don't know about the other two. I'm not sure how important a sensei is to a beginner, but I didn't feel any difference between my two senseis because the syllabus is fixed and their teaching methods are same. Some friends at ikoma who are doing higher levels say that many of the beginner series senseis are new. (Meaning to say doesn't really matter who). In fact my current sensei is just here teaching for a short period before she heads back to Japan.

Having said that, I enjoyed my classes very much. Although I wished ikoma teaches the casual form alongside the polite form like that of bunka. And not until the end of 4 terms.

You will learn the casual form in chapter 20. =)
So i guess it's about term 3?

 

[mirukuboi]

You will learn the casual form in chapter 20. =)
So i guess it's about term 3?

Yeah we covered the casual form now though I thought its strange that it isn't the first thing to start with.

 

[dimitri_can]

Yeah we covered the casual form now though I thought its strange that it isn't the first thing to start with.

All things happen for a reason. (^_^)
Will pm u the reason why the book is structured this way.

 

[dimitri_can]

A lot of students that i speak to, not just my new students that i took, but also students from other schools mentioned that that have problem understanding 名詞修飾形/noun-modifying form.

At N2 level, 名詞修飾形 is needed to understand the grammar (i won't go into details how this can help you to identify what option to pick in the exam) , but also help you to form your sentence. Below is a short example of how 名詞修飾形 is formed.

Let's try to use this to form 8 sentences to help you to understand this.

Sentence 1:
Wisma Atria is in Orchard Road:
Wisma Atria は Orchard Roadにあります。

Sentence 2:
Now when i want to describe "Wisma Atria that is in Orchard Road", it will become
「Orchard RoadにあるWisma Atria」

Note that: 「Orchard RoadのWisma Atria」 is also correct, but the meaning will be translated to "Orchard Road's Wisma Atria"

Notice what happens? You will change the 「あります」 in Sentence 1's 「Orchard Roadにあります」 to 「ある」
Remove the 「は」 away, and pop the whole part 「Orchard Roadにある」 to the front of Wisma Atria.

Sentence 3:
Orchard Road of Singapore
シンガポールのOrchard Road

Now try to translate this

Sentence 4:
Wisma Atria that is in Orchard Road of Singapore.

Did you manage to get the answer?

Sentence 5:
Suzuki-san went to Wisma Atria that is in Orchard Road of Singapore.
鈴木さんはシンガポールのOrchard RoadにあるWisma Atriaへ行きました。

Now, let's try to describe Suzuki-san. Say, Suzuki-san that has money.

Sentence 6:
Suzuki-san has money.
鈴木さんはお金があります。

Sentence 7 (following what has been mentioned in Sentence 2)
Suzuki-san who has money.
お金がある鈴木さん

Let's try to combine Sentence 5 and 7 together.

Sentence 8:
Suzuki-san who has money went to Wisma Atria that is in Orchard Road of Singapore.
お金がある鈴木さんはシンガポールのOrchard RoadにあるWisma Atriaへ行きました。

Did you guys manage to follow me through the 8 sentences? Hope this can help you understand it better...

 

[unfinished07]

I was under bessho sensei for a term. Then switched class to another sensei. I don't know about the other two. I'm not sure how important a sensei is to a beginner, but I didn't feel any difference between my two senseis because the syllabus is fixed and their teaching methods are same. Some friends at ikoma who are doing higher levels say that many of the beginner series senseis are new. (Meaning to say doesn't really matter who). In fact my current sensei is just here teaching for a short period before she heads back to Japan.

Having said that, I enjoyed my classes very much. Although I wished ikoma teaches the casual form alongside the polite form like that of bunka. And not until the end of 4 terms.

Ikoma has a reason of teaching the polite form first, before all other forms, including the casual form.
It is being taught as something like a "basic, fundamental form", and once you know the polite form, it is being used to teach, and used how to introduce casual form and other forms. it is important to know the very basic form. If not, all your other forms will go haywire.
And even if you are not good with other forms, you will always be safe if you use the polite form everywhere, it is suitable for all situations. Imagine talking in a business situation or someone you met the first time, and you start using your casual form. Definitely a negative image projected.
Please....to everyone, get your polite form well trained before your continue with any other forms.
I know people from other schools, who have spent quite some time learning Japanese, but their fundamentals and polite forms are still in a mess. I really don't think they are learning well.

 

[dimitri_can]

Ikoma has a reason of teaching the polite form first, before all other forms, including the casual form.
It is being taught as something like a "basic, fundamental form", and once you know the polite form, it is being used to teach, and used how to introduce casual form and other forms. it is important to know the very basic form. If not, all your other forms will go haywire.
And even if you are not good with other forms, you will always be safe if you use the polite form everywhere, it is suitable for all situations. Imagine talking in a business situation or someone you met the first time, and you start using your casual form. Definitely a negative image projected.
Please....to everyone, get your polite form well trained before your continue with any other forms.
I know people from other schools, who have spent quite some time learning Japanese, but their fundamentals and polite forms are still in a mess. I really don't think they are learning well.

Very rare for unfinished san to post stuff. His words are always so valuable

 

[unfinished07]

lol, my words are not that expensive, haha.
just sharing comments

 

[Ah_keong]

Ikoma has a reason of teaching the polite form first, before all other forms, including the casual form.
It is being taught as something like a "basic, fundamental form", and once you know the polite form, it is being used to teach, and used how to introduce casual form and other forms. it is important to know the very basic form. If not, all your other forms will go haywire.
And even if you are not good with other forms, you will always be safe if you use the polite form everywhere, it is suitable for all situations. Imagine talking in a business situation or someone you met the first time, and you start using your casual form. Definitely a negative image projected.
Please....to everyone, get your polite form well trained before your continue with any other forms.
I know people from other schools, who have spent quite some time learning Japanese, but their fundamentals and polite forms are still in a mess. I really don't think they are learning well.

cannot agreed more.
have chat with fellow students and really the fundamentals are shaky....

 

[unfinished07]

yup. really must drill in the fundamentals before going further.
exposing yourself to other "out of the school" stuff is good, as in you can learn how their pronunciation and intonation is, and some extra info. but many ppl use that to learn and absorb the wrong stuff like dialects, or they just get mixed up what should be used in what situations, and they sound too unnatural. (using 書き言葉 in their spoken japanese, or anyhow 省略 phrases/words)

but i guess its really hard to learn japanese in Singapore as in, there are not many chances to practice with japanese, and even harder to get japanese to correct your usage. how many people will tell you when you talk to them "eh, your japanese is weird"

 

[kakukan]

I would like to recycle something I wrote in Japanese Meetup's Message Board in Feb 2009 (the post is no longer available) regarding fluency in Japanese since we are on the topic of how learning Japanese in Singapore is difficult.

<Start>

皆さん

I would like to try to define what "fluency in Japanese" means. Among Japanese learners, fluency can mean many things so it is a "hot" topic i.e. people get hot under their collars

My definition is as follows:

If a non-native speaker of Japanese speaks Japanese at the average speed of a native Japanese speaker and use expressions 言い回し that a native Japanese uses for that particular context and situation, then he/she is a fluent Japanese speaker.

Another point is, I believe that once a learner REALISES that he/she has used the wrong expression while speaking, he/she can self-correct himself/herself. Native Japanese speakers also sometimes search for the right word to use when speaking. You will know this when they say 「えーと、なんだっけ。。。」 or 「何て言うか」

Allow me to relate an anecdote:

In 2003 when I was studying Japanese full-time in Tokyo, I met a fellow Singaporean lady who was then studying for her Japanese Linguistics undergraduate degree as a PSC scholar at University of Tokyo 東京大学. Before that, she had studied Japanese as a third language from Sec 1 till JC 2. When we became friends, I asked her how long she took before she felt that she could speak fluent Japanese after she came to Japan. She thought for a while and replied 3 years (if I remembered correctly).

Thinking back on her reply now, I've come to the following conclusion:

When a person speaks his/her first language or second language that is almost equal to his/her first language, he/she literally speaks what is on his/her mind i.e. thoughts are directly expressed in the language itself. These thoughts are NOT translated into Japanese first and then spoken. If a learner has reached this stage, then he/she has become fluent.

On a side note, many native Japanese are not fluent in English because the way they learnt English at school is via translation i.e. they translate English to Japanese in their heads so whenever they want to say something in English, they will first translate Japanese into English first and then say the translated output. There are 2 weaknesses:

1. The translation, even if done within milliseconds, is too slow for speech
2. The result of direct translation of Japanese into English is unnatural and sometimes, even incorrect English

A essential element of attaining fluency in Japanese (or any other language) is one's sensitivity to language. For example, when a person feels that a word/an expression sounds "weird", and can provide the correct word/expression, then he/she possesses the sensitivity. Although this sensitivity is more or less inborn, a person can "train" this sensitivity by reading/listening to a LOT of Japanese, consciously THINK about what he/she has read, and CHECK the dictionary if he/she doesn't understand a word/express.

In a Japanese-learning thread of a local forum which I frequently visit, I noticed that a lot of people write ungrammatical and sometimes incorrect Japanese so my conclusion is that these people have not yet developed their sensitivities.

Thus, I strongly urge learners to develop their own sensitivities!

<End>

On another note, during the time 步步惊心 (the Chinese drama Sacred Heart) was aired in Singapore, I was reading an overseas forum dedicated to the drama. In a post, someone pointed out that another person, a foreign born-Chinese with very limited Chinese ability, was able to follow another wildly popular Chinese drama 还珠格格 (My Fair Princess - I wonder whether anyone remembers it ) TOTALLY as she watched the series 30(?) times. I believe the foreign born-Chinese watched it at first with English subtitles, but she probably don't need the subtitles by the end of her 30th viewing

Is it possible to become proficient (I'm not talking about fluency here now) if one watches a drama for 30 times? I don't know. I'll let you know if I manage to watch a Korean drama (I'm learning Korean casually) for 30 times

Just my 2 cents.

 

[unfinished07]

I would like to recycle something I wrote in Japanese Meetup's Message Board in Feb 2009 (the post is no longer available) regarding fluency in Japanese since we are on the topic of how learning Japanese in Singapore is difficult.

<Start>

皆さん

I would like to try to define what "fluency in Japanese" means. Among Japanese learners, fluency can mean many things so it is a "hot" topic i.e. people get hot under their collars

My definition is as follows:

If a non-native speaker of Japanese speaks Japanese at the average speed of a native Japanese speaker and use expressions 言い回し that a native Japanese uses for that particular context and situation, then he/she is a fluent Japanese speaker.

Another point is, I believe that once a learner REALISES that he/she has used the wrong expression while speaking, he/she can self-correct himself/herself. Native Japanese speakers also sometimes search for the right word to use when speaking. You will know this when they say 「えーと、なんだっけ。。。」 or 「何て言うか」

Allow me to relate an anecdote:

In 2003 when I was studying Japanese full-time in Tokyo, I met a fellow Singaporean lady who was then studying for her Japanese Linguistics undergraduate degree as a PSC scholar at University of Tokyo 東京大学. Before that, she had studied Japanese as a third language from Sec 1 till JC 2. When we became friends, I asked her how long she took before she felt that she could speak fluent Japanese after she came to Japan. She thought for a while and replied 3 years (if I remembered correctly).

Thinking back on her reply now, I've come to the following conclusion:

When a person speaks his/her first language or second language that is almost equal to his/her first language, he/she literally speaks what is on his/her mind i.e. thoughts are directly expressed in the language itself. These thoughts are NOT translated into Japanese first and then spoken. If a learner has reached this stage, then he/she has become fluent.

On a side note, many native Japanese are not fluent in English because the way they learnt English at school is via translation i.e. they translate English to Japanese in their heads so whenever they want to say something in English, they will first translate Japanese into English first and then say the translated output. There are 2 weaknesses:

1. The translation, even if done within milliseconds, is too slow for speech
2. The result of direct translation of Japanese into English is unnatural and sometimes, even incorrect English

A essential element of attaining fluency in Japanese (or any other language) is one's sensitivity to language. For example, when a person feels that a word/an expression sounds "weird", and can provide the correct word/expression, then he/she possesses the sensitivity. Although this sensitivity is more or less inborn, a person can "train" this sensitivity by reading/listening to a LOT of Japanese, consciously THINK about what he/she has read, and CHECK the dictionary if he/she doesn't understand a word/express.

In a Japanese-learning thread of a local forum which I frequently visit, I noticed that a lot of people write ungrammatical and sometimes incorrect Japanese so my conclusion is that these people have not yet developed their sensitivities.

Thus, I strongly urge learners to develop their own sensitivities!

<End>

On another note, during the time 步步惊心 (the Chinese drama Sacred Heart) was aired in Singapore, I was reading an overseas forum dedicated to the drama. In a post, someone pointed out that another person, a foreign born-Chinese with very limited Chinese ability, was able to follow another wildly popular Chinese drama 还珠格格 (My Fair Princess - I wonder whether anyone remembers it ) TOTALLY as she watched the series 30(?) times. I believe the foreign born-Chinese watched it at first with English subtitles, but she probably don't need the subtitles by the end of her 30th viewing

Is it possible to become proficient (I'm not talking about fluency here now) if one watches a drama for 30 times? I don't know. I'll let you know if I manage to watch a Korean drama (I'm learning Korean casually) for 30 times

Just my 2 cents.

fluency can have many definitions, especially according to every individual, and how that person's aim is. i agree with kakukan san's comments above, but there are more than that.
a person can be fluent in japanese, but there are instances where the person's japanese can still feel weird to others.
i've met people who:

Can speak very fast, grammatically correct, correct usage of words, knows lots of 'chim' vocabs, but the pronunciation is obviously not natural.

Can speak very fast, vocab is good, pronunciation is good, sounds like a japanese, but slurs through most of his words.

it's also depending on each person's language abilities, and his mother tongue language. for example, i feel that taiwanese, and PRC are very good in pronunciation. Singaporean, and Malaysians are not that good in this area, generally speaking.

on your example of 步步惊心, it's hard to tell if the person is really proficient or not, coz by the time she reaches the 30th time watching the drama, she is so familiar with the drama contents that she does need to know what is spoken to know what is going on. i.e, she only knows the language within that drama.

eh, why not share how was your japanese learning journey?

 

[dimitri_can]

fluency can have many definitions, especially according to every individual, and how that person's aim is. i agree with kakukan san's comments above, but there are more than that.
a person can be fluent in japanese, but there are instances where the person's japanese can still feel weird to others.
i've met people who:

Can speak very fast, grammatically correct, correct usage of words, knows lots of 'chim' vocabs, but the pronunciation is obviously not natural.

Can speak very fast, vocab is good, pronunciation is good, sounds like a japanese, but slurs through most of his words.

it's also depending on each person's language abilities, and his mother tongue language. for example, i feel that taiwanese, and PRC are very good in pronunciation. Singaporean, and Malaysians are not that good in this area, generally speaking.

on your example of 步步惊心, it's hard to tell if the person is really proficient or not, coz by the time she reaches the 30th time watching the drama, she is so familiar with the drama contents that she does need to know what is spoken to know what is going on. i.e, she only knows the language within that drama.

Hahaha, but now schools not teaching pronunciation, so how?

 

[unfinished07]

yah hor....then the students need to learn to be sensitive like kakukan said lor.
thats how i learnt
lucky i get corrected often after i start to learn, out of the school.

 

[dimitri_can]

There's a new book coming out for N3 takers.

新完全マスター聴解　日本語能力試験N３
ISBN: 978-4-88319-609-8

http://www.3anet.co.jp/ja/3207

 

[Ah_keong]

fluency can have many definitions, especially according to every individual, and how that person's aim is. i agree with kakukan san's comments above, but there are more than that.
a person can be fluent in japanese, but there are instances where the person's japanese can still feel weird to others.
i've met people who:

Can speak very fast, grammatically correct, correct usage of words, knows lots of 'chim' vocabs, but the pronunciation is obviously not natural.

Can speak very fast, vocab is good, pronunciation is good, sounds like a japanese, but slurs through most of his words.

it's also depending on each person's language abilities, and his mother tongue language. for example, i feel that taiwanese, and PRC are very good in pronunciation. Singaporean, and Malaysians are not that good in this area, generally speaking.

on your example of 步步惊心, it's hard to tell if the person is really proficient or not, coz by the time she reaches the 30th time watching the drama, she is so familiar with the drama contents that she does need to know what is spoken to know what is going on. i.e, she only knows the language within that drama.

eh, why not share how was your japanese learning journey?

to add on, practise makes perfect.
by the 30th time watching the drama. one would have reach the capability of forecasting.

Before one speaker has end the sentence, the listener can somehow forecast how the sentence would end. The same would be true for reading....

I personally rank in terms of proficiency one should focus on the Japanese Learning Journey,

1 - Grammer Proficiency
2 - Accent Proficiency (reading / speaking)
3 - Vocab Proficiency

Of course, anything outside of textbook is beneficial to pick up.

 

[Keri_Lee]

Hi guys,

Would like to ask..

Is there any grammer structure that describes.. "will not like / will not grow to like" blah blah..

does 好きにならないと思います <-- does tis sounds right?

好きになりません <-- is there such a grammer?

youni narimasu<-- does not has a neg format? like youni narimasen?

thks!

 

[dimitri_can]

Hi guys,

Would like to ask..

Is there any grammer structure that describes.. "will not like / will not grow to like" blah blah..

does 好きにならないと思います <-- does tis sounds right?

好きになりません <-- is there such a grammer?

youni narimasu<-- does not has a neg format? like youni narimasen?

thks!

Refer to Chapter 19 of your Minna no Nihongo.
You will find the answer there.

 

[lillyelf]

Does anyone know of a way to meet more Japanese people (besides Meetup)? I would love to get more actual practice speaking with native Japanese without having to engage a private tutor. I've already joined a dance class conducted in Japanese, but I get more listening than speaking practice there.

Having reached a certain level of proficiency, I can't find any more useful classes in the Japanese language schools. Besides doing your own reading and watching/listening raws, does anyone have any suggestions on what is useful for self-studying?

 

[dimitri_can]

Does anyone know of a way to meet more Japanese people (besides Meetup)? I would love to get more actual practice speaking with native Japanese without having to engage a private tutor. I've already joined a dance class conducted in Japanese, but I get more listening than speaking practice there.

Having reached a certain level of proficiency, I can't find any more useful classes in the Japanese language schools. Besides doing your own reading and watching/listening raws, does anyone have any suggestions on what is useful for self-studying?

You can try this

For me, i like to go Japan every now and then, watch dramas and news to maintain my level. Writing a blog in Japanese helps as well.