learning japanese

kakukan

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unfinished07 said:
eh, why not share how was your japanese learning journey?

Everyone learns differently so I won't go into specifics. I went through 2 stages of formal learning: Japanese as a third language and later 1 year of full-time Japanese at a language school in Tokyo. Since returning from Tokyo after staying there for almost 2 years, I've been using Japanese in my work throughout different jobs.

Does anyone know of a way to meet more Japanese people (besides Meetup)? I would love to get more actual practice speaking with native Japanese without having to engage a private tutor. I've already joined a dance class conducted in Japanese, but I get more listening than speaking practice there. :D

Having reached a certain level of proficiency, I can't find any more useful classes in the Japanese language schools. Besides doing your own reading and watching/listening raws, does anyone have any suggestions on what is useful for self-studying?

@ lillyelf, I'm not sure I follow you. You've joined a dance class conducted in Japanese, so I assume the majority of the students and the instructor (all except you?) are Japanese people so you should have ample chances of speaking with your fellow classmates. If you're not speaking to them as much as you would like to, what is/are holding you back?

On the question of self-studying, what dimitri_can listed are the usual ways to maintain your level of proficiency. Proficiency is simply your ability in the 4 skills: reading, writing, listening, speaking. If you know what skill you want to improve, then I think many here would be able to offer their suggestions.
 
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dimitri_can

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Just want to add on that studying Japanese culture or Keigo might be good as well, if you want, i may just have the correct book for you.
 
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lillyelf

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@ lillyelf, I'm not sure I follow you. You've joined a dance class conducted in Japanese, so I assume the majority of the students and the instructor (all except you?) are Japanese people so you should have ample chances of speaking with your fellow classmates. If you're not speaking to them as much as you would like to, what is/are holding you back?

On the question of self-studying, what dimitri_can listed are the usual ways to maintain your level of proficiency. Proficiency is simply your ability in the 4 skills: reading, writing, listening, speaking. If you know what skill you want to improve, then I think many here would be able to offer their suggestions.

well, since it's a dance class, there is a limit to the amount of conversation that can take place in the 1.5 hour of class. furthermore, it's a class of Japanese taitais. there really isn't very much interaction that can take place out of class since they're all rushing off with their children after class.

i think i was too vague with my situation, so i'll just add on to it. i actually came back from Japan after a year there. it's a huge jump from daily immersion to absolutely no Japanese at all. i'm a "use-it-or-lose-it" kind of person, so i'm looking for more ways to "use it" for now, until I go to Japan again.

i recently went for a class touted as "advanced", and unfortunately, the level was nowhere what i had expected. that's when i realised i'm going to have to put more effort into keeping up with my studies on my own.

i'm reading Japanese novels and watching Japanese news online. it's the speaking that i would like to keep practising, hence my question on where to meet more Japanese. i tried language exchange websites, but the con is that they all want to speak more English than Japanese!

thanks dimitri_can, for the suggestions. although, i can't believe you actually read that book for fun! =:p

ps kakukan, are you on Meetup?
 
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dimitri_can

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The book is a bit dry at the start, but as you read more and more, you would realize that it becomes more and more interesting.

Most advanced classes focus more on reading rather than on speaking. It would be quite hard to find Japanese people to speak to you other than the 話す会, which i have introduce to you earlier.

Do you have friends in Japan which you often talk to them on Skype? I do have some friends, which i talk to occasionally to just keep up with the language. =)

I haven't been to meetup for about 1 year plus so i am not sure how they operate now.

You can also try to sing Japanese songs to keep up with your singing. Cash Studio Cuppage Plaza provides the ClubDAM machine.
 
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kakukan

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well, since it's a dance class, there is a limit to the amount of conversation that can take place in the 1.5 hour of class. furthermore, it's a class of Japanese taitais. there really isn't very much interaction that can take place out of class since they're all rushing off with their children after class.

i think i was too vague with my situation, so i'll just add on to it. i actually came back from Japan after a year there. it's a huge jump from daily immersion to absolutely no Japanese at all. i'm a "use-it-or-lose-it" kind of person, so i'm looking for more ways to "use it" for now, until I go to Japan again.

i recently went for a class touted as "advanced", and unfortunately, the level was nowhere what i had expected. that's when i realised i'm going to have to put more effort into keeping up with my studies on my own.

i'm reading Japanese novels and watching Japanese news online. it's the speaking that i would like to keep practising, hence my question on where to meet more Japanese. i tried language exchange websites, but the con is that they all want to speak more English than Japanese!

ps kakukan, are you on Meetup?

I understand your situation now. Taitais aka 駐妻(ちゅうづま - Note: this is a term coined by the Japanese themselves i.e. it's not standard Japanese)i.e. expatriate wives generally mix only with their own kind, so my guess is that you can probably just exchange pleasantries with them and that's it.

I've a friend who might be in the same situation as you. She was in Japan for 3 years as an ALT in the JET Programme and had passed JLPT 1 in Japan. When she returned to Singapore, she had no chance to use Japanese and according to her "I can understand what Japanese people say but I can't seem to find the words when I want to speak" (paraphrase).

In this case, Japanese Meetup may be one of your solutions. There are a number of native Japanese people in Jp Meetup and some new native Japanese people join Jp Meetup on an on-going basis. You can take a look at the website and decide for yourself whether joining Jp Meetup will help you in your goal to practise speaking.

Yes, I'm in Japanese Meetup :)

P.S. You may like to refer to something I wrote on post #7530 regarding my view on fluency.
 
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dimitri_can

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Talking about 駐妻、there are lots of new words which are created.
I just asked a Japanese friend about 駐妻、even he didn't know what it was. So i guess not many people know about this kind of newly created words.

I also took the chance to ask my friend about those newly created words and learned a lot. For example, 指恋 (ゆびこい), マショ子 (ましょこ), etc. If you refer to this link, you can find a lot of such words. =)

There are other 俗語(ぞくご) like 愛方(恋人のこと。彼氏・彼女のこと) / ITする (アイスを食べに行く)
 
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kakukan

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Talking about 駐妻、there are lots of new words which are created.
I just asked a Japanese friend about 駐妻、even he didn't know what it was. So i guess not many people know about this kind of newly created words.

dimitri_can, you can find examples of 駐妻 being used here and here.

By the way, you haven't replied my SMS about what camera you were using for your photos in Japan :)
 
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unfinished07

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Everyone learns differently so I won't go into specifics. I went through 2 stages of formal learning: Japanese as a third language and later 1 year of full-time Japanese at a language school in Tokyo. Since returning from Tokyo after staying there for almost 2 years, I've been using Japanese in my work throughout different jobs.


On the question of self-studying, what dimitri_can listed are the usual ways to maintain your level of proficiency. Proficiency is simply your ability in the 4 skills: reading, writing, listening, speaking. If you know what skill you want to improve, then I think many here would be able to offer their suggestions.

you are very fortunate to have the chance to learn Japanese in Japan :)
 

unfinished07

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me too, i wanted to pass JLPT 1 and get to know Japanese girls, and i achieved both goals....
haha, just kidding.
 

lillyelf

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I understand your situation now. Taitais aka 駐妻(ちゅうづま - Note: this is a term coined by the Japanese themselves i.e. it's not standard Japanese)i.e. expatriate wives generally mix only with their own kind, so my guess is that you can probably just exchange pleasantries with them and that's it.

Yes, I'm in Japanese Meetup :)

P.S. You may like to refer to something I wrote on post #7530 regarding my view on fluency.

we learn something new everyday. i wish i knew the word earlier...i'm having flashbacks of the time i accidentally blurted out the word タイタイ in a presentation in Japanese and then had to quickly backtrack and explain what it meant. =:p

i think i might have met you at a Meetup event, at least from what you've said about your Japanese studies...there can't be that many Meetup people who had studied Japanese in Tokyo and has a job that uses Japanese.

i think i've also met the PSC scholar you mentioned in your post. she became a Japanese teacher here if i'm not wrong.

i guess what i'm going to be doing a lot of now would be to listen to more native Japanese speakers and learn more 'natural' phrases. i need to live up to my old school's aim and「洗練された上品な日本語を身につける」:s13:

thanks for all your suggestions!
 

kakukan

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we learn something new everyday. i wish i knew the word earlier...i'm having flashbacks of the time i accidentally blurted out the word タイタイ in a presentation in Japanese and then had to quickly backtrack and explain what it meant. =:p

i think i might have met you at a Meetup event, at least from what you've said about your Japanese studies...there can't be that many Meetup people who had studied Japanese in Tokyo and has a job that uses Japanese.

i think i've also met the PSC scholar you mentioned in your post. she became a Japanese teacher here if i'm not wrong.

i guess what i'm going to be doing a lot of now would be to listen to more native Japanese speakers and learn more 'natural' phrases. i need to live up to my old school's aim and「洗練された上品な日本語を身につける」:s13:

thanks for all your suggestions!

駐妻 is not standard so you might get quizzical looks from your audience who are not familar with expatriate wives. I'm think the official term is 駐在員の妻 according to what I see on Yahoo Japan, which is the default search engine that native Japanese use.

I've PMed you regarding Jp Meetup. Please check your PM.

The PSC scholar told me she will become a Japanese teacher at Ministry of Education Language Centre after she has completed her studies. When I did a search at the MOELC's website, her name is no longer in the Japanese Department, so I don't think you've met my friend since I was in Japan from 2003 to 2005. You probably met somebody who had the same background.

「洗練された上品な日本語を身につける」 is a great goal. 頑張ってください!May I know where did you come by this phrase (it seems to be a fixed phrase 決まり文句 to me)?

Welcome :)
 
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lillyelf

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The PSC scholar told me she will become a Japanese teacher at Ministry of Education Language Centre after she has completed her studies. When I did a search at the MOELC's website, her name is no longer in the Japanese Department, so I don't think you've met my friend since I was in Japan from 2003 to 2005. You probably met somebody who had the same background.

「洗練された上品な日本語を身につける」 is a great goal. 頑張ってください!May I know where did you come by this phrase (it seems to be a fixed phrase 決まり文句 to me)?

Welcome :)

if her name starts with N, that's the same person. when i met her, she was no longer with MOELC.

that's the catchphrase of my Japanese school, specifically for the advanced levels. the advanced students were quoted it so much that we could all recite it and quoted it back at our teachers as much as we could. ah...i miss my class. :s13:
 

kakukan

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A very common situation when learning Japanese in Singapore (or anywhere else for that matter) is when a learner advances through the levels in schools (for formal learnng), he/she will find that the number of classmates in his/her class will decrease exponentially. It's possible that other learners are self-studying, but I think the main reason is simple: the majority give up studying due to various reasons e.g. "Japanese is harder than I thought", "I have school/work/other commitments", etc.

I think "Japanese is harder than I thought" is basically the plateau that a learner is stuck at. This stage is also the most crucial as whether he/she continues learning or not depends on whether he/she can overcome the plateau.

Thus, I'll like to recycle something else I wrote in July 2010 (also not longer available) in Japanese Meetup's Message Board. It should provide a solution to how to overcome the plateau issue.

<Start>

I've read something in English written by a native Japanese person in a Japanese learning forum that is so good I thought it'll be good to share it with everyone here (native Japanese generally don't hang around in Japanese learning forums that are in English so whenever this guy writes something, I'll always read his post with great interest)

In learning Japanese (or anything, for that matter), what do you do when you hit a plateau?

The following is what the guy wrote (I'm quoting him verbatim):

"Language learning is like that. You feel your Japanese improved greatly at first, and then you kind of get disappointed by your slow progress. You don't think you've made any progress lately, then suddenly you feel like you just made a huge leap and got to the whole new level. And you feel like you got stuck again. That's how it works.

But of course you might actually hit a plateau if you've been thinking you haven't made any progress for a long time. In that case, you might want to rethink your goal, your study method, how much time you spend on Japanese each day, and so on.

It's not the total amount of time you've sent learning Japanese in your life that dictates how far you can get. It's how much effort you put at any given moment because language is "use it or lose it," i.e., your language skills always get rusty if you don't constantly hone them.

How fast can a car go? The longer you press the gas pedal, the faster the vehicle travels until it hits the limit the gas pedal dictates. To get faster, you should step on it deeper. You release your foot, and the car slows down.

The height of your own "plateau" is determined by the commitment/seriousness/effort/whatever you put while learning. As long as you keep learning Japanese, you will eventually hit the level you set by yourself. If you've been at the same level for, say, a couple years, most likely that's the limit you can get through your learning style.

If the level is not satisfactory, you might want to change either your learning style or goal. It doesn't seem like you'd make huge progress by the same on-and-off learning.

Some people put incredible amounts of effort because they're obsessed with the language. They may not even think they're putting effort at all. Some people work as hard or even harder because of the situations they're in such as jobs. They will eventually learn to speak Japanese amazingly well. And many people learn Japanese casually, and they get to the level they can reach because they didn't give up. Their foreign language skills may not be as good, but they achieved their goals.

Language learning is simple. Some methods may work really well for some people, but they'd reach the same level with other methods as long as they don't give up, though their progress might be slower.

Some people advocate "immersion" into Japanese. I think the philosophy of many of the immersion methods is that if you put your pedal to the metal, you'll eventually reach your max speed. And most likely it's the fastest way to reach any level as long as you don't neglect important basic grammar and such. Obviously, it's the only way to reach your highest possible level too.

I don't know what the OP's goal is or how fluent s/he wants to be. But I think JLPT 2 level is already pretty good. And if you want to improve your Japanese when you think you already hit the max level you can get by the current learning style, you just need to be more serious. I don't think your problem is complicated. It should be solved in a pretty straightforward way.

Because you know how you've been learning Japanese, you should be able to get a rough guesstimate about what level your plateau is. If your goal is higher than the level, all you need to do is work harder or lower the goal.

Also, I think it's important to always keep in mind that native speakers have been flooring it for their entire lives. Maybe they didn't take advantage of an efficient, systematic learning method. But they've been using it 24/7 (They dream in Japanese too!) and leaned tons of stuff at school (How long do you think you need to learn all those words and phrases from science jargon to expressions from classical Japanese?). So reaching even 1/100 of native fluency is already a remarkable achievement if you consider how much time and effort you have to put to achieve that.

I don't know who would read this long post, but what I thought when I read the OP was that pressing down the gas pedal halfway on and off only gets you so far when it comes to speed (= fluency) for obvious reasons."

<End>
 

dimitri_can

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For those looking for promotions in Kinokuniya.
grandsummersaleb.jpg
 

unfinished07

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A very common situation when learning Japanese in Singapore (or anywhere else for that matter) is when a learner advances through the levels in schools (for formal learnng), he/she will find that the number of classmates in his/her class will decrease exponentially. It's possible that other learners are self-studying, but I think the main reason is simple: the majority give up studying due to various reasons e.g. "Japanese is harder than I thought", "I have school/work/other commitments", etc.

I think "Japanese is harder than I thought" is basically the plateau that a learner is stuck at. This stage is also the most crucial as whether he/she continues learning or not depends on whether he/she can overcome the plateau.

Thus, I'll like to recycle something else I wrote in July 2010 (also not longer available) in Japanese Meetup's Message Board. It should provide a solution to how to overcome the plateau issue.

<Start>

I've read something in English written by a native Japanese person in a Japanese learning forum that is so good I thought it'll be good to share it with everyone here (native Japanese generally don't hang around in Japanese learning forums that are in English so whenever this guy writes something, I'll always read his post with great interest)

In learning Japanese (or anything, for that matter), what do you do when you hit a plateau?

The following is what the guy wrote (I'm quoting him verbatim):

"Language learning is like that. You feel your Japanese improved greatly at first, and then you kind of get disappointed by your slow progress. You don't think you've made any progress lately, then suddenly you feel like you just made a huge leap and got to the whole new level. And you feel like you got stuck again. That's how it works.

But of course you might actually hit a plateau if you've been thinking you haven't made any progress for a long time. In that case, you might want to rethink your goal, your study method, how much time you spend on Japanese each day, and so on.

It's not the total amount of time you've sent learning Japanese in your life that dictates how far you can get. It's how much effort you put at any given moment because language is "use it or lose it," i.e., your language skills always get rusty if you don't constantly hone them.

How fast can a car go? The longer you press the gas pedal, the faster the vehicle travels until it hits the limit the gas pedal dictates. To get faster, you should step on it deeper. You release your foot, and the car slows down.

The height of your own "plateau" is determined by the commitment/seriousness/effort/whatever you put while learning. As long as you keep learning Japanese, you will eventually hit the level you set by yourself. If you've been at the same level for, say, a couple years, most likely that's the limit you can get through your learning style.

If the level is not satisfactory, you might want to change either your learning style or goal. It doesn't seem like you'd make huge progress by the same on-and-off learning.

Some people put incredible amounts of effort because they're obsessed with the language. They may not even think they're putting effort at all. Some people work as hard or even harder because of the situations they're in such as jobs. They will eventually learn to speak Japanese amazingly well. And many people learn Japanese casually, and they get to the level they can reach because they didn't give up. Their foreign language skills may not be as good, but they achieved their goals.

Language learning is simple. Some methods may work really well for some people, but they'd reach the same level with other methods as long as they don't give up, though their progress might be slower.

Some people advocate "immersion" into Japanese. I think the philosophy of many of the immersion methods is that if you put your pedal to the metal, you'll eventually reach your max speed. And most likely it's the fastest way to reach any level as long as you don't neglect important basic grammar and such. Obviously, it's the only way to reach your highest possible level too.

I don't know what the OP's goal is or how fluent s/he wants to be. But I think JLPT 2 level is already pretty good. And if you want to improve your Japanese when you think you already hit the max level you can get by the current learning style, you just need to be more serious. I don't think your problem is complicated. It should be solved in a pretty straightforward way.

Because you know how you've been learning Japanese, you should be able to get a rough guesstimate about what level your plateau is. If your goal is higher than the level, all you need to do is work harder or lower the goal.

Also, I think it's important to always keep in mind that native speakers have been flooring it for their entire lives. Maybe they didn't take advantage of an efficient, systematic learning method. But they've been using it 24/7 (They dream in Japanese too!) and leaned tons of stuff at school (How long do you think you need to learn all those words and phrases from science jargon to expressions from classical Japanese?). So reaching even 1/100 of native fluency is already a remarkable achievement if you consider how much time and effort you have to put to achieve that.

I don't know who would read this long post, but what I thought when I read the OP was that pressing down the gas pedal halfway on and off only gets you so far when it comes to speed (= fluency) for obvious reasons."

<End>

very well said. it's important to set your goals and change them as you go, or else you will hit your plateau sooner or later. from my previous Japanese classes, there were a lot of classmates with me during the beginner / intermediate lessons, but the numbers dropped very fast after that.
one reason is that, it was the 'Japanese boom' that time, people were obsessed with J-drama, songs, idols, etc., and went to learn the language. but after starting to learn, they start to realize that learning a language and idolizing are very different things, and the effort that they have to put in is very tiring. and all sorts of excuses start to come in. commitments for work/school, family, too tired after work, i can't keep up, school fees too ex, etc.

from then on, either you got to have very strong motivation from your idolizing, or you got to get a new goal.
for me, my motivation lasted very long, even up to now. and i had different goals for myself along the way. and it was thru this journey that my lifestyle changed. i got to know many Japanese friends, people who are interested in Japanese like me, and from there too, I get more motivation to improve.

and i started to work in Japanese companies, i get the chance to practice to keep my level there (this is also one good reason to be motivated. i had to get my JLPT 2, and later my JLPT 1 coz that was needed for the job). in Japanese companies, when there are so many people who can do the same job, some may have higher qualifications or are more competent than you, you may still be chosen because of your language abilities.

learning a language is not just about going to school to learn. if you really want to be good in it, it has got to be part of your lifestyle. only through that way you will find yourself being always motivated, and finding new goals to keep yourself motivated.
 

dimitri_can

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Anyone interested in learning how to memorize Keigo?
I am offering 3 free sessions to help you understand it. Pm me if you are interested. Should be on Sun morning or Sat evening...

Minimum level required: N4

Session 1:
-Keigo: The real 5 different types (teachers in schools only teach 3 types)
-Differentiating between the different types and knowing how to use them
-How to memorize Keigo easily and effectively using 幻想水滸伝 movies

Session 2:
-Tele-conversation skills

Session 3:
-Writing business emails and Japanese resumes.

Just a quick note that the session is starting next Sat 7-9pm.
I still have 1 more slot available.
=======================================
Also, the other free course offered.

Introduction to 国語. If you want to find out more about 国語, this is the chance to.

Date: 25th June 2012 (Mon)
Time: 7.30-9.30
Number of seats available: 6
Pre-requisite: Minimum must have pass N4

You do not need to pay anything to me, it's out of good will that these sessions are offered.

If you are interested, pls pm me for details.

Moderator: Kindly remove post if appropriate.
============================
Btw, am also looking for people who would like to help to review a introductory/beginner textbook that i am writing. You need to have the following pre-requisites:

-Currently in your 6th month-2nd year of Japanese studies, doesn't matter if it's self study or studying in a school
-You find that the current textbooks used in the schools/outside language books do not provide good/enough information to the questions that you are asking.
-Don't mind helping for free and provide constant feedback.
-As a gratitude for helping, you will receive a copy of the published textbook for free.

Pm me if you are interested.
 
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XasakuraX

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Hi all~

For intermediate, Bunka or Ikoma better?
Read that Bunka's focus is on writing and grammar while Ikoma's is on conversation. True?

Initially intended to jump to Ikoma for intermediate. But then think maybe stay with Bunka for intermediate to build up writing and grammar then jump to Ikoma for Pre-advanced. Would that be better? Need some advice...

Me just completed elementary at Bunka. Taking N5 this july. Planning to take N4 this Dec. Which sch would better prepare me for N4?

TIA~
 

dimitri_can

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It really depends what you want for yourself in future. Do you want to pass JLPT? Or to be able to speak better? I personally have seen students who have done well in Bunka and also students who were unable to speak well in Bunka.

Ask yourself why you want to study Japanese...
 
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