Linux compatibility with laptops

[ykgoh]

Why is it hard for Linux to be 100% compatible with generic drivers for most laptops out-of-the-box, assuming we put UEFI secure boot out of the question?

I heard people have to try alternative settings or compatibility mode, do some hacks, find obscure drivers and still some hardware remains unsupported in Linux.

However, most laptops today are assembled from standard commodity hardware parts, and their configurations are largely similar if not the same. For example, HP, Dell, Lenovo and Acer laptops are mostly using about the same parts from Intel, AMD, Nvidia, Realtek and other standard DDR4 /DDR3L RAM and SATA storage (doesn't matter if WD, Seagate, Toshiba or HGST).

Any idea why this is so and what the challenges are? Would love to hear from everybody.

 

[davidktw]

Why is it hard for Linux to be 100% compatible with generic drivers for most laptops out-of-the-box, assuming we put UEFI secure boot out of the question?

I heard people have to try alternative settings or compatibility mode, do some hacks, find obscure drivers and still some hardware remains unsupported in Linux.

However, most laptops today are assembled from standard commodity hardware parts, and their configurations are largely similar if not the same. For example, HP, Dell, Lenovo and Acer laptops are mostly using about the same parts from Intel, AMD, Nvidia, Realtek and other standard DDR4 /DDR3L RAM and SATA storage (doesn't matter if WD, Seagate, Toshiba or HGST).

Any idea why this is so and what the challenges are? Would love to hear from everybody.

The words are SUPPORT and OPENSOURCE. Even if you consider NVIDIA, the support we are talking about is merely a matter of chipset, not even some obscure software modem or weird keyboard panel found on laptops. It is still pretty much a hurdle for NVIDIA to support Linux wholeheartedly by outsourcing their Drivers. As such this make it difficult for the community to contribute by hacking it for different architecture which can differ from one brand of system to another. Often if you find incompatible hardware In laptops, it is often because the manufacturer only supplied Windows Drivers or did not OPENSOURCE their Drivers and specs for the community to produce Drivers for these hardware. Commodity hardware only means they are cost effective, it doesn't mean that they are easily compatible with all sorts of systems out in the market.

The main issue with OPENSOURCE not able to achieve their utmost level is rather simple. In nature of businesses run by humans wanted protection over their own IP. Not everyone are truly willing to share everything with everyone which may cannibalise their profit

 

[Rock-kun]

What is the point in using Linux on a notebook anyway?

From my own experience, the issues faced in almost every notebook are:

Wireless related. Don't get me started on non-Intel cards.
Graphics related. Even Intel is not spared from this.
Printer driver issues.
Drains more power than Windows
No control (or broken control) over display resolution and brightness
SLOWER than Windows in running applications. Don't believe me? Take a stopwatch and time how long it takes to launch programs like Chrome, Firefox and LibreOffice. Then run them on Linux and see how much longer they take.
Ugly font rendering.


The only reason I can think of for most people who think of running Linux as their daily desktop computing platform is just to simply 'be different'. I am this close to considering a permanent move back to Windows just because of those problems above, and I have been running desktop Linux for almost a decade.

 

[ykgoh]

What is the point in using Linux on a notebook anyway?

From my own experience, the issues faced in almost every notebook are:

Wireless related. Don't get me started on non-Intel cards.
Graphics related. Even Intel is not spared from this.
Printer driver issues.
Drains more power than Windows
No control (or broken control) over display resolution and brightness
SLOWER than Windows in running applications. Don't believe me? Take a stopwatch and time how long it takes to launch programs like Chrome, Firefox and LibreOffice. Then run them on Linux and see how much longer they take.
Ugly font rendering.


The only reason I can think of for most people who think of running Linux as their daily desktop computing platform is just to simply 'be different'. I am this close to considering a permanent move back to Windows just because of those problems above, and I have been running desktop Linux for almost a decade.

See that's my point. Out-of-the-box, many Linux distros are not able to detect and install drivers for all/most of the hardware. There is a high chance that one or more devices will be unrecognized and thus unusable e.g. webcam, wireless card, Bluetooth.

There is also a high chance that it is unable to boot successfully into a GUI desktop for various reasons. Perhaps due to graphics hardware issues or boot loader. Sometimes it may just kernel panic and gets stuck. Users may have to disable certain hardware probing tests or manually specify some settings to get it to work.

Then there are the more minor issues like battery life (need to install TLP or some power management package manually), find some drivers or utilities to control the display brightness, sound volume, webcam, Bluetooth etc.

But some people may have better luck with Ubuntu or LinuxMint, and still they run into problems. The other distros probably don't count on them to be user-friendly enough for out-of-the-box experience.

 

[Rock-kun]

See that's my point. Out-of-the-box, many Linux distros are not able to detect and install drivers for all/most of the hardware. There is a high chance that one or more devices will be unrecognized and thus unusable e.g. webcam, wireless card, Bluetooth.

There is also a high chance that it is unable to boot successfully into a GUI desktop for various reasons. Perhaps due to graphics hardware issues or boot loader. Sometimes it may just kernel panic and gets stuck. Users may have to disable certain hardware probing tests or manually specify some settings to get it to work.

Then there are the more minor issues like battery life (need to install TLP or some power management package manually), find some drivers or utilities to control the display brightness, sound volume, webcam, Bluetooth etc.

But some people may have better luck with Ubuntu or LinuxMint, and still they run into problems. The other distros probably don't count on them to be user-friendly enough for out-of-the-box experience.

Deal with it. ON my Skylake notebook the WiFi card does not connect to 5GHz bands, the Intel iGPU was not recognized until i built a new upstream 4.5 kernel, and CPU throttling was broken (also fixed with the building of the new custom kernel). Trackpad also caused kernel panics and is now permanently disabled in firmware.

 

[ykgoh]

Conclusion: is Linux production ready for mass adoption? Guess not after 24 years of development.

Haiz, prepare to crawl back to Windows 10.

 

[davidktw]

Conclusion: is Linux production ready for mass adoption? Guess not after 24 years of development.

Haiz, prepare to crawl back to Windows 10.

Why do so when there is already MAC OS

 

[ykgoh]

Why do so when there is already MAC OS

Bro, you rich lah. I can only afford $800 cheapo laptop. No MacBook near that kind of price.

 

[davidktw]

Bro, you rich lah. I can only afford $800 cheapo laptop. No MacBook near that kind of price.

I am not that rich Perhaps this can help u fulfill your wish ?
http://www.apple.com/sg/shop/product/FJVM2ZP/A/refurbished-116-inch-macbook-air-16ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i5

It is still 200 off from your budget , but I think you can surely do it

 

[Rock-kun]

Why do so when there is already MAC OS

I wouldn't use a Mac even if my life depended on it.

The luxury and flexibility of being able to switch out commodity hardware at my time and choosing without having to be shackled to the OEM overrules any other issue available.

 

[davidktw]

I wouldn't use a Mac even if my life depended on it.

The luxury and flexibility of being able to switch out commodity hardware at my time and choosing without having to be shackled to the OEM overrules any other issue available.

As you wish. Your life, your way. I have been using MAC OS X for 10 years and that didn't make me shackle into anything, I am still extremely versatile may it be Windows, MAC OS X, Linux or even HP-UX and so forth. It is all in your mind on how you want to adapt, OS is just a tool. If it makes me more productive, it is a good tool.

 

[Rock-kun]

As you wish. Your life, your way. I have been using MAC OS X for 10 years and that didn't make me shackle into anything, I am still extremely versatile may it be Windows, MAC OS X, Linux or even HP-UX and so forth. It is all in your mind on how you want to adapt, OS is just a tool. If it makes me more productive, it is a good tool.

It's not the OS. It's the hardware.

The early Intel Core Duo and C2D Macs were by far the most commodity hardware-friendly Macs Apple had ever sold. It was a downhill slope from that point onwards with all their proprietary hardware interfaces and soldered down components.

Even the standard Wintel thin ultrabooks of today feature standard M.2 slots for SATA/PCIe SSDs and WiFi cards, and some even still have support for slotted SODIMMs, all while still maintaining a thinness superior to that of the Air. I don't see any reason to trade that flexibility for a Mac.

 

[davidktw]

It's not the OS. It's the hardware.

The early Intel Core Duo and C2D Macs were by far the most commodity hardware-friendly Macs Apple had ever sold. It was a downhill slope from that point onwards with all their proprietary hardware interfaces and soldered down components.

Even the standard Wintel thin ultrabooks of today feature standard M.2 slots for SATA/PCIe SSDs and WiFi cards, and some even still have support for slotted SODIMMs, all while still maintaining a thinness superior to that of the Air. I don't see any reason to trade that flexibility for a Mac.

A machine is just a machine. as far as what it means to me, it just merely translate to mflops. there is sacrificial to make for power efficiency and portability. if u ask for my opinion, I rather they just make EVERYTHING out of one SOC. and the circuit board is nothing more than just wiring to the necessary ports. Expandability is too often an overrated requirement that people always hope for, but seldom in use. with the introduction of wireless and USB and other interoperability interfaces, expansion can be achieve thru this way. so brand is not what really matters so much to me when it comes to Apple products, it is the lean and streamline methodology and process. really when I need power, I draw it from the cloud from a few clicks, I need transformation, I use a VM. but of course these are just my opinions, everybody has their own preferences, so whether you find value in some things are just a matter of perspective

 

[andrew_g]

i'd say linux compatibility *varies* on notebook / ultrabook pcs
i prefer to *research* the web & figure out how compatible it is before buying a notebook

e.g. sites like liliputing and perhaps others that u may uncover on google search could give good leads
http://liliputing.com/2015/04/ubuntu-on-the-asus-zenbook-ux305-ultrabook.html
some of those *used* notebooks also have quite good support, but u'd need to do the google searches

as to linux on notebooks? it is more a matter of preference and usage. I'd think windows do fine on most notebook / ultrabook pcs and if u're not after any 'esoteric' stuff, it'd be better to simply stick with windows for the support drivers etc

linux is getting pretty strong these days in terms of apps unique to the linux platform, of course there is the rather 'standard' libreoffice suite etc. but more and more where u are looking at *development platforms* e.g. python, c, java, android, IOT, microcontrollers (e.g. raspberry PI, beaglebone) etc linux starts to pull itself apart from windows. to that end u may even find tools / utilities in linux that is not found on the windows platform
esp microcontrollers etc

an example is leaflabs maple java based IDE (similar to arduino IDE)
http://docs.leaflabs.com/docs.leaflabs.com/index.html
it is deemed 'end of life' but it runs fine on linux and u'd find that u could relatively easily install the IDE in linux and program the microcontroller board e.g. Olimex STM32 microcontroller board
(ths is an 'arduino clone' in which this 'arduino' board runs on a very popular (in industry) STM32 ARM cpu/soc)
https://www.olimex.com/Products/Duino/STM32/OLIMEXINO-STM32/
http://sg.element14.com/olimex/olim...0000002655&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false

accordingly with Windows (e.g. Win 7, Win 8, etc u may struggle with the drivers to try to make this even work). but it 'just work' from linux

linux / open source has come a long way & it is becoming its own 'ecosystem' much as windows, android, osx etc has been

 

[andrew_g]

linux is getting pretty strong in the *mini PCs* / *compute stick* and *NUC* space
https://plus.google.com/communities/112467586473225134676

i recently installed linux on an *Intel compute stick* following this very talented person's guide (he probably volunteered his effort creating the *distributions* manually - handcrafted ! )
https://linuxiumcomau.blogspot.sg/2016/10/running-ubuntu-on-intel-bay-trail-and.html

after installing and running it, i've no doubt that linux is the *appropriate OS* for a *compute stick* and perhaps even *mini PC*

for one thing the compute stick now works as a *server* than a 'desktop', i don't need a screen at all, simply turn on the compute stick and you can remote shell (ssh) into the compute stick and work in it over WIFI this changes the compute stick from the conventional 'desktop' use case to an 'IOT' use case, the device become a server & u can 'upload' programs into the compute stick & it runs remotely 'IOT' style

 

[andrew_g]

linux runs the world's fastest supercomputers
http://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-dominates-supercomputers-as-never-before/
http://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-still-rules-supercomputing/

and i won't be surprised if after all linux run some of those *fastest* bitcoin / cryptocurrency mining nodes on the internet. u can run and control a whole cluster (u could even scale to 100s i.e. petaflops no less than those supercomputers) of extreme speed GPU systems mining bitcoins competing at the top end in those bitcoin mining pools

 

[andrew_g]

What is the point in using Linux on a notebook anyway?

From my own experience, the issues faced in almost every notebook are:

Wireless related. Don't get me started on non-Intel cards.
Graphics related. Even Intel is not spared from this.
Printer driver issues.
Drains more power than Windows
No control (or broken control) over display resolution and brightness
SLOWER than Windows in running applications. Don't believe me? Take a stopwatch and time how long it takes to launch programs like Chrome, Firefox and LibreOffice. Then run them on Linux and see how much longer they take.
Ugly font rendering.


The only reason I can think of for most people who think of running Linux as their daily desktop computing platform is just to simply 'be different'. I am this close to considering a permanent move back to Windows just because of those problems above, and I have been running desktop Linux for almost a decade.

agreed linux has 'limited use' on laptops. This in part as manufacturers mostly only delivers the windows drivers for gpu, screen, touchpad, wifi, bluetooth, power management, webcam etc.

quite often those chips are *proprietary* & there is *no support* the moment u *drop windows*. that said u're literally 'lock in' to that version of windows which comes with the laptop.

for any success running linux on laptops, more thorough research on web is necessary. there are various laptops which has good compatibility but it is not across the board.

linux has much better success with desktops, mini-pcs, nucs, compute sticks etc. this is mainly due to the large community support worldwide. even intel release various open source drivers for their products for linux.

the linux 'use case' is different from windows. the 'use cases' is a bigger deciding factor of whether to use linux or windows. for desktop use case, with all the common apps and web surfing windows is most likely the better platform. things start to change on the 'development' and 'IOT' use case as being open sourced, linux can flexibly adapt to different hardware and basically run as a 'server' this is dramatically different from the 'desktop' use case. linux runs more like a 'cloud' device

 

[localITguy]

i would say, windows for desktops/notebooks/and PCs.

Linux for servers, problem solved.


and yeah i do feel your pain rock-kun

the lack of compatibility sucks!

 

[Rock-kun]

i would say, windows for desktops/notebooks/and PCs.

Linux for servers, problem solved.


and yeah i do feel your pain rock-kun

the lack of compatibility sucks!

There are many more things in Windows i dislike more intensely than Linux.

The filesystem hierarchy is one of them.Who thought it was a great idea to scatter all the system executables and libraries among system32, syswow64, windows, assembles, etc etc etc? At least in *nix type systems, they are all properly split out and centralized into /bin /lib /lib64 /include

Application-specific settings are stored in a centralized place in *nix in the form of a hidden folder in /home, in plaintext, with sensible names. Again, who thought it was a smart decision to dump AppData folders all over the place in Windows, some even with ridiculous, unintelligible folder names? And why the heck are some of those even replicated among Local, LocalLow and Roaming?