Newbie Guide: How to Find a Good Agent for Investment & Insurance?

genie47

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I'm tired of debating over this with you as I do not hate BTIR.

Of course you are getting tired. So far you have not produced numbers and facts. Only "service" to back you.

Then again, there are many out there who just want to see megapixels. Maybe you could just talk to them instead of making a case here for ILP.
 

xiaoevil

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interesting argument. since when financial consultant, which plainly means a planner, becomes expert in giving investment advice. are you saying with M5, M9, M8 and HI give you the knowledge and skills to ANALYSE the market? Dream again.
Be sure you write "You (Client) was recommended ABC fund and XYZ fund to help you achieve your financial goals of ...." Of coz these funds will be from your company, then give me a copy of your planner with your agency code and MAS licensing code, you can say goodbye to your license.

Consultants who have build a decent or superior portfolio is still not allowed to recommend it to others. Reason why Prudential engaged Mercer is very simple, you can go ask Prudential for the FULL reasons - and it's a service that clients can take up or not.

Model porfolio will only perform to its expected gain and unlikely to maximise returns for those who can take the extreme risk of unit trust. And if any problem with following Mercer's model, clients can question Mercer and sue them, whatever. But if i'm the client and I followed your model, if things go bad are you going to answer for it - NO!

Financial consultants ARE NOT financial analyst - Go figure the difference. If you want to recommend investment strategies, dude - you are in the WRONG line!

If you guys don't want to check what FAA is really about, don't keep telling me about BTIR. Yes you can outsource to others but it doesn't look like it from what you are doing here.
By means of reading up on FAA - from MAS website, not the summarised version you see in M5.

Recommendation of products, be it that i'm a tied agent or IFA - I can never recommend investment strategies to others - Get this right.
I'm not limited by the platform because I can simply outsource, however you 2 are doing things on your own here. If you 2 only have M5,M8,M9,HI,ChFC,CFP and have been recommending investment strategies - be answerable to your clients and MAS. FC are bounded by the FAA, it's the same no matter what access I have - because with M5,M8,M9,HI,ChFC,CFP - I still won't be qualified to give investment advise. Any consumers who fully trust their consultant on investment strategies should rethink. I can always seek a professional investor who hold CFA for investment advise because I'm asking the right person. Financial consultants are never the right person to ask for such advise, they are simply the middleman that points you to the right direction when one enquire on products that are non-insurance based.
Please rethink what you are saying here. I can simply report all this to MAS to alert them.

And to Handtied: Beware of tied agents working with other companies' tied agents, It was solely referring to churning so you don't have to try bring a single line out of my entire context.
 

xiaoevil

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Of course you are getting tired. So far you have not produced numbers and facts. Only "service" to back you.

Then again, there are many out there who just want to see megapixels. Maybe you could just talk to them instead of making a case here for ILP.

Why should I show you numbers when you are not a genuine customer. You can request from Prudential or any other company yourself.
Don't pull 1 line out of my entire post. It just mean you got nothing to reply.

Anyone who read through the entire post since the beginning would realise something wrong with this guide which suggest financial consultants should practice it because in the first place it is not allowed under FAA.
 

xiaoevil

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When it comes to investing, you need to know who and what you can trust. Trust your own judgment first, but know your limitations and of others you deal with.

Trust your own judgment foremost

Is it better to invest in a few things that you know well, or to diversify your risk?

Diversification has a long history. Fifteen hundred years ago, ancient wealth guru Rabbi Issac bar Aha said: 'One should always divide his wealth into three parts: a third in land, a third in merchandise, and a third ready to hand.'

These days, investment professionals or fund managers use theory to create portfolios that minimise risk for a given level of return by carefully choosing the proportions of various assets.

Yet not all agree with this approach.

Economist John Maynard Keynes suggested: 'The right method in investment is to put fairly large sums into enterprises which one thinks one knows something about... It is a mistake to think that one limits one's risk by spreading too much between enterprises about which one knows little and has no reason for special confidence.'

Followers of Warren Buffett will recognise this stance; the famous industrialist used the same quote in his 1991 letter to Berkshire Hathaway shareholders.

Who is right: fund managers or Mr Buffett?

In practice, investors trust their own judgment more than they trust professionals. On average, investors hold a substantial amount in just a few assets rather than holding fully diversified portfolios, as suggested by conventional theory.

Recent academic research has shown that trust in an asset makes investors hold a disproportionately large amount. This is not a surprise: if you are knowledgeable about an attractive proposition, you are likely to be overweight in it. At the extreme, some investors hold only a tiny number of assets, and, on the face of it, are badly diversified. The new research suggests this is justified by the superior confidence in the investment.

One can see this in action in Singaporeans who invest only in property, a few well-known share counters and fixed deposits. These 'unsophisticated' investors may be savvier than they appear at first glance: they know and understand the local property and stock markets, and they trust Singapore banks not to lose their cash, even if the returns might be paltry.

Trust professionals a bit less

Of course, confidence cannot be misplaced - you need to know the limits of your expertise. And so, for most investors, the right strategy will be a blend of focus and diversification. This means a professionally managed investment has a place in many portfolios.

When one has no particular insightful understanding of a market it makes sense to buy into a diversified, broad market exposure: a good unit trust or an exchange-traded fund.

For example, you might believe you need exposure to Asian stocks but have neither the time nor expertise to identify which stocks to buy. In this situation you can trust that a manager cannot seriously go wrong with a basket of Asian shares in a well-regulated fund.

The limitations of professionals should be recognised. Good short- term performance can be due to luck. Even well-diversified portfolios cannot benefit fully from the unpredictability of future performance. Do not trust any adviser to pick the perfect portfolio (except in hindsight; the best you can hope for is a good portfolio). This is not a fault of advisers; it's just a reflection of the randomness of markets.

Place most trust in advisers who make recommendations that are clearly optimised for your interests (such as maintaining your portfolio risk at an agreed level), and not optimised for generating commission.

Trust complex products somewhat less still

As a rule of thumb, the simpler the product, the more likely it is to deliver what it promises. Structured products may be complex: they could embed derivatives, or be triggered by credit events or offer some form of capital guarantee. Typically, an investor has no deep knowledge of derivatives or financial engineering, and therefore has no real hope of assessing the risks or value of such products.

In the worst case, risks are not completely anticipated by the product manufacturer, let alone the investor or salespeople. Even in the best case, structured products may be pricey. For example, capital guarantees usually come at a cost (and besides, they could fail in a crisis, just when you need them). Such features may be motivated more by marketing departments than by investment considerations.

Capital guaranteed products need not be complex. A Singapore government bond (SGS) doesn't even charge you for safety (yes, the yields are modest). If you really need 100 per cent protection, you could invest some in SGS, and invest the balance in risky assets, such as shares.

If you come across a product that looks complicated to you, the rule should be: don't trust it.

Trust unlicensed salesmen least of all

Those selling unregulated investments such as wine, plots of foreign land, ostrich farms or such like, need to work very hard to gain your trust. This is partly because there are no third-party standards or verification by a regulator, and partly because unregulated products can suffer from lack of transparency. This doesn't mean all unregulated opportunities are sharp practice. Indeed, today's unregulated investments may become tomorrow's standard licensed fare.

However, you need to be wary. One warning signal is a selling point of phenomenal returns - an emotional appeal to your greed. That makes you vulnerable to a wrong decision. Likewise, a pitch of a 'smart' or 'exclusive' opportunity might be using your pride and gullibility as levers to open your wallet.

Spend some time on the Monetary Authority of Singapore website to see which firms are licensed and which firms are on the Investor Alert List. Although dealing with a licensed firm is not a warranty of a good investment, you can trust me when I say that an unlicensed scheme will not have a happy outcome if something goes wrong.

The writer is the chief executive of wealth management firm dollarDex.com
 

HandsTied

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interesting argument. since when financial consultant, which plainly means a planner, becomes expert in giving investment advice. are you saying with M5, M9, M8 and HI give you the knowledge and skills to ANALYSE the market? Dream again.
Be sure you write "You (Client) was recommended ABC fund and XYZ fund to help you achieve your financial goals of ...." Of coz these funds will be from your company, then give me a copy of your planner with your agency code and MAS licensing code, you can say goodbye to your license.

Consultants who have build a decent or superior portfolio is still not allowed to recommend it to others. Reason why Prudential engaged Mercer is very simple, you can go ask Prudential for the FULL reasons - and it's a service that clients can take up or not.

Model porfolio will only perform to its expected gain and unlikely to maximise returns for those who can take the extreme risk of unit trust. And if any problem with following Mercer's model, clients can question Mercer and sue them, whatever. But if i'm the client and I followed your model, if things go bad are you going to answer for it - NO!

Financial advisers with the appropriate licenses are able to construct and recommend investment funds and investment portfolios. Don't resort to outright lies when your half-truths don't work. Point out where in the FAA it says that financial advisers cannot advise on investments. Just because you don't have the necessary licenses to do so does not mean real financial advisers are unable to.

Financial advisory firms have also long since employed model portfolios designed by qualified investment professionals. I think it will be a real joke to those reading them if I tell you them this fact that you have conveniently left out: This whole Mercer thing that you keep rambling on about just came into effect less than 3 weeks ago! A real joke indeed. How long have you been selling ILPs and having the consumer pick the funds at his own risk? Of course, no doubt that you have written the planner damn carefully to protect yourself and made extra care to mention that the client was the one who picked the fund, even though that may not be the case in reality.

Just because you have just started learning how to crawl does not mean others have not been able to walk and run.


Financial consultants ARE NOT financial analyst - Go figure the difference. If you want to recommend investment strategies, dude - you are in the WRONG line!

Financial salespeople ARE NOT financial consultants/planners - Go figure out the difference. If you want to sell financial products pretending to be a financial planner, dude - you are in the CORRECT line because the regulators close one eye to your nonsense.

If you guys don't want to check what FAA is really about, don't keep telling me about BTIR. Yes you can outsource to others but it doesn't look like it from what you are doing here.

What talking you? We have long said that ILP is term plus investment funds which someone can easily replicate. At no point we have said that BTIR MUST buy property, must invest in shares at one risk etc. Till now you still cannot say the practical advantage that ILP offers to justify its hefty charges and your fat commissions!

By means of reading up on FAA - from MAS website, not the summarised version you see in M5.
Recommendation of products, be it that i'm a tied agent or IFA - I can never recommend investment strategies to others - Get this right.

You point out the specific quotations because licensed FAs have been recommending investment funds and portfolios since 2002 when the FAA was introduced.

I'm not limited by the platform because I can simply outsource, however you 2 are doing things on your own here.

Come on, still waiting for you to declare to your company that you "outsource" in clear contravention of your agency contract. You are contractually limited to your platform, regardless of what kind of shady dubious arrangements you can cook up.

If you 2 only have M5,M8,M9,HI,ChFC,CFP and have been recommending investment strategies - be answerable to your clients and MAS. FC are bounded by the FAA, it's the same no matter what access I have - because with M5,M8,M9,HI,ChFC,CFP - I still won't be qualified to give investment advise. Any consumers who fully trust their consultant on investment strategies should rethink. I can always seek a professional investor who hold CFA for investment advise because I'm asking the right person. Financial consultants are never the right person to ask for such advise, they are simply the middleman that points you to the right direction when one enquire on products that are non-insurance based.

Again, that's because you are a salesperson. Appreciate your honesty in letting people know that you cannot be asked on investment advice. In addition, I will like to add on that people should not seek you for insurance advice either. They should go to you if they want to buy something, after all you are a salesperson just for that.

Please rethink what you are saying here. I can simply report all this to MAS to alert them.
:s13:

And to Handtied: Beware of tied agents working with other companies' tied agents, It was solely referring to churning so you don't have to try bring a single line out of my entire context.
[/quote]

Sure, then I'll write it in my context: Beware of tied agents who claim to work with other companies' agents and claim that they offer unbiased advice because they are ultimately tied to their Principal contractually and are contractually bound to offering their company's products. There are much better channels for one to seek a wide range of solutions. Also beware of financial salespeople/product promoters giving themselves fanciful sounding titles like "financial consultants" when their job is clearly stated in their contract to "promote insurance products" and not provide financial advice.
 

HandsTied

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Wah, now resort to taking an article and twisting it to substantiate your salesmanship.

The article states the advantages of personal financial knowledge which this guide is trying to promote. I fully agree that consumers should have their own financial knowledge and trust professionals less because no one can deliver a perfect portfolio. In the first place, this guide encourages everyone to buy term and invest on their own, but xiaoevil will start talking about how consumers cannot invest and stuff. When we said that consumers can outsource it, he says outsourcing is bad. Really can come up with all kinds of arguments to justify his ILP, never mind if such arguments contradict each other.

In any case, the most pertinent issue here is that ILP is no different from BTIR, except with a whole lot more inflexibility and charges.

BTIR - If one is investment savvy
- One can buy term and invest the rest on his own knowledge without having to trust "professionals" and "complex products"

BTIR - If one is not investment savvy
- One can buy term and outsource it to fund managers/"professionals"

ILPs, on the other hand, leaves you no choice but to:

1 - Trust professionals
Be it people masquerading as financial consultants like xiaoevil, or the Mercer portfolio he keeps talking about. Even when presented a range of funds, one has little choice as it's a pathetic amount of 20 - 30 funds which the insurer provides. Even if one chooses funds based on his preference, he can only let the fund manager do whatever he likes.

2 - Trust complex products
Because ILP is a complex product that xiaoevil at his own admission can't even explain well in 5 hours, and his clients will even forget after that

3 - Trust unlicensed salesmen
The exact definition of xiaoevil, who does not have the necessary licenses to advise on investments, fulfilling "unlicensed", and yet still want to sell his investment-linked policies (ILP), fulfilling salesman.
 
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xiaoevil

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Wah, now resort to taking an article and twisting it to substantiate your salesmanship.

The article states the advantages of personal financial knowledge which this guide is trying to promote. I fully agree that consumers should have their own financial knowledge and trust professionals less because no one can deliver a perfect portfolio. In the first place, this guide encourages everyone to buy term and invest on their own, but xiaoevil will start talking about how consumers cannot invest and stuff. When we said that consumers can outsource it, he says outsourcing is bad. Really can come up with all kinds of arguments to justify his ILP, never mind if such arguments contradict each other.

Since when did I started saying you cannot invest on your own?
If this guide is about everyone buying term to invest on their own, why is the topic titled "Newbie Guide: How to Find a Good Agent for Investment & Insurance?"

In any case, the most pertinent issue here is that ILP is no different from BTIR, except with a whole lot more inflexibility and charges.
I'm pretty sure no insurance riders can be added to non-insurance based investment products. If one totally do not wish to cover whole life for certain insurance riders (riders as in those that are not offered as standalone), then go ahead with BTIR. Go Go... I'm not stopping anyone. If you can find an investment that allows all the options of riders being added in, tell me. Oh wait - that would made it an ILP product! And just for your info, there may be inflexibility to the insurance portion of ILP products but that's the way it is - it's designed to combine both insurance and investment. If you really want to separate it, go ahead for BTIR but don't say ILP is useless because there are people who wants everything together in 1.

HandsTied;52707316[B said:
BTIR - If one is investment savvy[/B]
- One can buy term and invest the rest on his own knowledge without having to trust "professionals" and "complex products"

True, provided one has the time to manage his investment regularly. Survey studies have shown that majority of the consumers do not remember what they purchased after a year for long term products like insurance, investment and savings. Majority of my clients just want the convenience of someone that would be monitoring their entire financial portfolio regularly and this person is from some reputable stable company - namely the Big 4 (Prudential, Great Easter, AIA & NTUC Income)

HandsTied;52707316[B said:
BTIR - If one is not investment savvy[/B]
- One can buy term and outsource it to fund managers/"professionals"
True, but if you are investment savvy you may not want to spend time managing too and outsource it as well.

1 - Trust professionals[/b]
Be it people masquerading as financial consultants like xiaoevil, or the Mercer portfolio he keeps talking about. Even when presented a range of funds, one has little choice as it's a pathetic amount of 20 - 30 funds which the insurer provides. Even if one chooses funds based on his preference, he can only let the fund manager do whatever he likes.

2 - Trust complex products
Because ILP is a complex product that xiaoevil at his own admission can't even explain well in 5 hours, and his clients will even forget after that

3 - Trust unlicensed salesmen
The exact definition of xiaoevil, who does not have the necessary licenses to advise on investments, fulfilling "unlicensed", and yet still want to sell his investment-linked policies (ILP), fulfilling salesman.

1. Consumers always have the choice. Since when they don't? There are those clients even after I explained to them the charges of WL ILP, they still prefer it over WL traditional. And when if I suggest get Term and invest on their own, they find it too troublesome.

2. Sorry, I did explain well in 30min but client don't understand and I have to repeat and repeat. Questions were repeated. You weren't there so don't assume.

3. Financial consultants are licensed to sell ILP because it carries insurance elements to it, with the exception of Unit Trusts (for those with M8). However they are not licensed to give recommendations of funds and premium allocation. Clients have to decide themselves or engage a 3rd party investment consultant for advise. Financial consultants are not liable for investment strategies that went wrong for ILP products, hence will be and cannot recommend the type of investment. The right way for a financial consultant to do is to do a risk profile analysis and direct them the the table of risk classifications and let their clients select the funds within that category. Clients can request for past fund performance but must be warn that this do not indicate future performance.

I have been writing in a very neutral stand and whenever Mercer or Prudential brought up was only to illustrate a point and should not be inferred on the surface. Please look at the bigger picture of the GENERAL consumers and not bias to a single group/type.

This guide has already violated many rules of FAA if an AGENT is to use it for his/her clients. For a DIY guide, I've nothing to say except it's not user friendly for newbie investors.
 
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Cashcow

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Rebalancing takes a few minutes. It must be damn tough for us consumers... so difficult!!!

It's few minutes but my client oso never even once use his account to re-balance his unit trust.

People are lazy. You need to know the psychology of humans la. BTIR sounds a good theory but most ppl end up just buying a term plan and not investing the rest. This is oso a fact in life.
 

iAdvisor

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For people who believes in BTIR, I believe they belongs to those who are much more savvier in terms of investment. Everybody has their own believes and way of doing things. There will be a no end on what is the best/right method in ones life planning. Its all up to the individual.

Yes, ILP has its own uses as well. For those who know nuts about investment, and clueless about opening a investment account can very much do the same at lower cost will benefit from such product. But it can only benefit them for the early years. I have yet to encounter any client of mine owning an ILP, told by their agent that the mortality charges will rise significantly from 40s onward. If such 'feature' is make known to the client, and client still willing to buy, I see no point of argument here. But I have also yet to encounter any of my client who owns such ILP, after knowing that the mortality charges will rise significantly, still wants to keep the policy in force.

There are people who prefer to look for tied agent due to the known company's history. But many others are not aware of the existence of IFA. On top of this, many are also unware that a tied agent does not belongs to the insurance company as well. They are just agents from financial firms that solely distribute the insurance company's product.

I think xiaoevil should checkout again on MAS ruling. with M8 licenses, we are allow to advice on collective investment product. But such advice must comes with proper explanations and reasons, such that the client is not talk through by sales person. However, we are not analyst or bankers, on what basis can we advise on the right investment? A tied agent can't, but IFA can. I know, IPPFA, one of the largest IFA in singapore has a investment/analysis branch/dept that would be able to provide a reasonable basis on recommending investment to client. (I'm not from IPPFA though)
 

Rommie2k6

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True, provided one has the time to manage his investment regularly. Survey studies have shown that majority of the consumers do not remember what they purchased after a year for long term products like insurance, investment and savings. Majority of my clients just want the convenience of someone that would be monitoring their entire financial portfolio regularly and this person is from some reputable stable company - namely the Big 4 (Prudential, Great Easter, AIA & NTUC Income)

And this highlights a major misconception that consumers have thinking that managing finances is a very challenging task when it is all quite simple. It is also highlights another misconception that financial professionals can "add-value" when in almost all cases they cannot. You are simply preying on client's lack of knowledge and using that to feed on your sales. Again, you provide a shining example of the ethical standard in the finance industry.

A real ethical financial consultant will provide what the consumer needs *not* want he wants, just as a real doctor will prescribe medicine that you need not want you want.

1. Consumers always have the choice. Since when they don't? There are those clients even after I explained to them the charges of WL ILP, they still prefer it over WL traditional. And when if I suggest get Term and invest on their own, they find it too troublesome.

Perhaps your explanation was lousy or perhaps you didn't bother making an effort since BTIR would only mean less commission for you?

3. Financial consultants are licensed to sell ILP because it carries insurance elements to it, with the exception of Unit Trusts (for those with M8). However they are not licensed to give recommendations of funds and premium allocation. Clients have to decide themselves or engage a 3rd party investment consultant for advise. Financial consultants are not liable for investment strategies that went wrong for ILP products, hence will be and cannot recommend the type of investment. The right way for a financial consultant to do is to do a risk profile analysis and direct them the the table of risk classifications and let their clients select the funds within that category. Clients can request for past fund performance but must be warn that this do not indicate future performance.

Seriously, if that is all you do... what good are you to the client?


I have been writing in a very neutral stand and whenever Mercer or Prudential brought up was only to illustrate a point and should not be inferred on the surface. Please look at the bigger picture of the GENERAL consumers and not bias to a single group/type.

I think the arrangement with Mercer is pretty neat for Prudential. If anything goes wrong with investment, just simply push the blame to Mercer, leaving Prudential agents unscathed. A nice tidy arrangement... and I'm still waiting back for the Mercer portfolio. Why don't you dare to report what supposedly super advice Mercer provides?

This guide has already violated many rules of FAA if an AGENT is to use it for his/her clients. For a DIY guide, I've nothing to say except it's not user friendly for newbie investors.

As I mentioned earlier on the perceived limitations is only there for tied agents. Kudos for iAdvisor to point that out:

I think xiaoevil should checkout again on MAS ruling. with M8 licenses, we are allow to advice on collective investment product. But such advice must comes with proper explanations and reasons, such that the client is not talk through by sales person. However, we are not analyst or bankers, on what basis can we advise on the right investment? A tied agent can't, but IFA can. I know, IPPFA, one of the largest IFA in singapore has a investment/analysis branch/dept that would be able to provide a reasonable basis on recommending investment to client. (I'm not from IPPFA though)
 

Rommie2k6

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It's few minutes but my client oso never even once use his account to re-balance his unit trust.

People are lazy. You need to know the psychology of humans la. BTIR sounds a good theory but most ppl end up just buying a term plan and not investing the rest. This is oso a fact in life.

Another strawman argument against BTIR. Execution of BTIR has nothing to do with the soundness of the strategy.

And what you have just provided is just an EXCUSE. Your point is just as analogous to one claiming that medicine is worthless, since people won't eat their medicine according to the prescribed schedule and dosage.

Stop hiding behind excuses...
 

Cashcow

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Another strawman argument against BTIR. Execution of BTIR has nothing to do with the soundness of the strategy.

And what you have just provided is just an EXCUSE. Your point is just as analogous to one claiming that medicine is worthless, since people won't eat their medicine according to the prescribed schedule and dosage.

Stop hiding behind excuses...

I alrdy say you win! You still not happy with what?

Ppl on the street dun buy your BTIR thing is their own choice. I will still sell ppl WL if it is what they want cos in this service line, you can't force things down your clients' throats.

Song bo?
 

xiaoevil

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And this highlights a major misconception that consumers have thinking that managing finances is a very challenging task when it is all quite simple. It is also highlights another misconception that financial professionals can "add-value" when in almost all cases they cannot. You are simply preying on client's lack of knowledge and using that to feed on your sales. Again, you provide a shining example of the ethical standard in the finance industry.

when you mention client's lack of knowledge in finances that i'm preying on and i'm not value adding through financial planning, isn't it contradicting that because they don't know how to plan that's why i'm VALUE-ADDING their knowledge?

A real ethical financial consultant will provide what the consumer needs *not* want he wants, just as a real doctor will prescribe medicine that you need not want you want.

So are you a financial consultant with license to give all these advise here? You can say how easy it is to meet the criteria to take M5/M9/HI/M8, but have you passed the exams to be fit and proper for giving advise?

One can study law and be expert in it but will not be allowed to practice law if he has not cleared with the authorities, have you?



Perhaps your explanation was lousy or perhaps you didn't bother making an effort since BTIR would only mean less commission for you?


Maybe you have overlooked my post. If one will to spend $100 on a ILP @ 100k sum assured vs a $100 on a term @ 500k as to what u proposed buy high sum assured first because in future may not be able to buy, then my commission is still the same.

And if my client purchase $50 on 250k term and $50 on investment, yes I earn half the commission but in future he is still gonna get another 250k sum assured, assuming he needs 500k. The commission just comes in sooner or later.

You can argue I earn more if client purchased a 500k WL, because i eat the commission as part of the WL premium. But client wish to combine it together for convenience.

Seriously, if that is all you do... what good are you to the client?

Of course not, why should I share with you what's good.
And to give you an illustration of what exactly if going on in the market. If customer wants to get ILP because the friend says it's good and all. Assuming after going through a financial planning and concluded that BTIR is better for customer and customer still refuse to accept the proposal. Are you telling me not to sell to this customer ILP?
So assuming I super ethical and I don't sell. The minute this customer walked out and cross the road, a car ran over him and he died on the spot.

Which is a greater evil?

You have no idea what's sales.


I think the arrangement with Mercer is pretty neat for Prudential. If anything goes wrong with investment, just simply push the blame to Mercer, leaving Prudential agents unscathed. A nice tidy arrangement... and I'm still waiting back for the Mercer portfolio. Why don't you dare to report what supposedly super advice Mercer provides?

Whatever you want to think, it's a extra service available to customers. You can still engage others for investment recommendation. The advice by Mercer is only to provide investment strategy for those who do not know how to allocate the premiums and what funds to choose, so choose the model portfolio. It's just like the WL investment strategy (with about 50% bond) stated somewhere in the contract which belongs to lower risk level.



As I mentioned earlier on the perceived limitations is only there for tied agents. Kudos for iAdvisor to point that out:

I believe iAdvisor also pointed out this:

On top of this, many are also unware that a tied agent does not belongs to the insurance company as well. They are just agents from financial firms that solely distribute the insurance company's product

Solely distribute doesn't mean solely advice on one company's product. For e.g., Prudential don't do general insurance and my client wants to get travel insurance. I can always refer the client to someone I know that does it. Whether I get referral fee or not, I make sure my client pays the standard premium off the shelf.
If my client want to invest in shares, ETFs, REITs, I can always ask him to approach the relevant, trusted connections that I have.
 

xiaoevil

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Yes, ILP has its own uses as well. For those who know nuts about investment, and clueless about opening a investment account can very much do the same at lower cost will benefit from such product. But it can only benefit them for the early years. I have yet to encounter any client of mine owning an ILP, told by their agent that the mortality charges will rise significantly from 40s onward. If such 'feature' is make known to the client, and client still willing to buy, I see no point of argument here. But I have also yet to encounter any of my client who owns such ILP, after knowing that the mortality charges will rise significantly, still wants to keep the policy in force.

And yes, I always emphasis on the charges of ILP and all my clients are aware of it. In fact some of my clients port over to me because they were not aware of the charges when the purchased the ILP (not recommended by me).

To Rommie2k6:
I favour WL more over ILP because it covers for Life and it's convenient for general consumers over your BTIR strategy.
If you want me to explain the whole BTIR strategy to my client, yes I can be the one handling and constantly review. I follow your guide thoroughly.
Do you know financial consultants are also human? Can die one? Who is going to take over the BTIR strategy that i used on my clients for the next consultant?
If you feel your BTIR is so easy to understand and good for everyone, write in to SCI to make it part of the syllabus in M9.
 

xiaoevil

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I think xiaoevil should checkout again on MAS ruling. with M8 licenses, we are allow to advice on collective investment product. But such advice must comes with proper explanations and reasons, such that the client is not talk through by sales person. However, we are not analyst or bankers, on what basis can we advise on the right investment? A tied agent can't, but IFA can. I know, IPPFA, one of the largest IFA in singapore has a investment/analysis branch/dept that would be able to provide a reasonable basis on recommending investment to client. (I'm not from IPPFA though)

Thank you for your neutral stand, I am checking with MAS to provide an official reply on this issue. The MAIN reason why Prudential engage Mercer is because of the inability to give investment strategy advise. If it's so simple as to getting M8, I'm sure Prudential will make it compulsory for all its agents to take M8. There may be other reasons behind engaging Mercer but that's speculation.
Nevertheless, I will post the reply from MAS within 7 days as stated by their auto-reply.
 

xiaoevil

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Trust unlicensed salesmen least of all

Those selling unregulated investments such as wine, plots of foreign land, ostrich farms or such like, need to work very hard to gain your trust. This is partly because there are no third-party standards or verification by a regulator, and partly because unregulated products can suffer from lack of transparency. This doesn't mean all unregulated opportunities are sharp practice. Indeed, today's unregulated investments may become tomorrow's standard licensed fare.

However, you need to be wary. One warning signal is a selling point of phenomenal returns - an emotional appeal to your greed. That makes you vulnerable to a wrong decision. Likewise, a pitch of a 'smart' or 'exclusive' opportunity might be using your pride and gullibility as levers to open your wallet.

Spend some time on the Monetary Authority of Singapore website to see which firms are licensed and which firms are on the Investor Alert List. Although dealing with a licensed firm is not a warranty of a good investment, you can trust me when I say that an unlicensed scheme will not have a happy outcome if something goes wrong.

I would very much like to know whether Rommie2k6 is a licensed consultant. Don't keep hiding behind the screen to provide "neutral" advise.
My guess is you are probably those who charge for financial planning.
 

Cashcow

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I dun do pure investment so no nid M8.

Only got M5, M9, HI and GI. This GI is good so I can sell standalone PA, no nid like some agents can only add riders to plans.
 

Rommie2k6

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I would very much like to know whether Rommie2k6 is a licensed consultant. Don't keep hiding behind the screen to provide "neutral" advise.
My guess is you are probably those who charge for financial planning.

Your personal attack is getting stale, but I will humor you. I do not have anything to do with the finance industry at all.

In case you haven't realized I have always been advocating the DIY approach, and only get an agent to manage if there is really no choice.
 

Rommie2k6

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when you mention client's lack of knowledge in finances that i'm preying on and i'm not value adding through financial planning, isn't it contradicting that because they don't know how to plan that's why i'm VALUE-ADDING their knowledge?

Well... I guess you're right from a "certain point of view". But for some cases value-adding means product churning, encouraged to termination old policy and shield plan, and such "value" does more harm than good.

So are you a financial consultant with license to give all these advise here? You can say how easy it is to meet the criteria to take M5/M9/HI/M8, but have you passed the exams to be fit and proper for giving advise?

Appeal to authority? Oh please stop your fallacious arguments. If you have a point to make, disprove the posts I have made on BTIR vs WL using reason.

One can study law and be expert in it but will not be allowed to practice law if he has not cleared with the authorities, have you?

If you think that the finance industry has any standard like that of the law industry, you are sorely mistaken. There is no real regulation and enforcement in the finance industry, which is why O-level grads can sell toxic products.

Maybe you have overlooked my post. If one will to spend $100 on a ILP @ 100k sum assured vs a $100 on a term @ 500k as to what u proposed buy high sum assured first because in future may not be able to buy, then my commission is still the same....

That's probably true... if so why do you still recommend ILP? Don't quote consumer preference again. As a consultant you are supposed to provide advice in the best interest of the client, not advice to make the client feel happy.

Of course not, why should I share with you what's good.
And to give you an illustration of what exactly if going on in the market. If customer wants to get ILP because the friend says it's good and all. Assuming after going through a financial planning and concluded that BTIR is better for customer and customer still refuse to accept the proposal. Are you telling me not to sell to this customer ILP?

Yes, you are to walk away. Just as a doctor who will ask you to leave the clinic if you insist on him to prescribe you inappropriate toxic medication.

So assuming I super ethical and I don't sell. The minute this customer walked out and cross the road, a car ran over him and he died on the spot.

Which is a greater evil?

Strawman argument. Stop distorting the issue at hand which is BTIR vs WL/ILP.

Whatever you want to think, it's a extra service available to customers. You can still engage others for investment recommendation. The advice by Mercer is only to provide investment strategy for those who do not know how to allocate the premiums and what funds to choose, so choose the model portfolio. It's just like the WL investment strategy (with about 50% bond) stated somewhere in the contract which belongs to lower risk level.

SHOW ME THE DETAILS OF THE MERCER PLAN. As I have challenged you before, show it here if not I will simply assume (quite justifiably so) that it's just another gimmick Prudential has created to make their products sell better.


Solely distribute doesn't mean solely advice on one company's product. For e.g., Prudential don't do general insurance and my client wants to get travel insurance. I can always refer the client to someone I know that does it. Whether I get referral fee or not, I make sure my client pays the standard premium off the shelf.
If my client want to invest in shares, ETFs, REITs, I can always ask him to approach the relevant, trusted connections that I have.

Yayaya... you will only do the ethical thing when you know their client is armed with knowledge. Will you recommend ETFs for BTIR if a client comes to you with ILP or WL?
 

Rommie2k6

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To Rommie2k6:
.... Do you know financial consultants are also human? Can die one? Who is going to take over the BTIR strategy that i used on my clients for the next consultant?
If you feel your BTIR is so easy to understand and good for everyone, write in to SCI to make it part of the syllabus in M9.

Which is why in Part 6 of my guide, my first preference is to DIY. Yes, it's true that you run the risk of your IFA "dying out" on you, but how high is the probability of that?

Your appeal to authority arguments (again) are irrelevant to the topic at hand. I have challenged you and you have failed to show why ILP/WL is better than BTIR for most cases. Instead, you have cited excuses in the execution of BTIR (which is not justified) and invoked fallacious argument (like what you have been doing in the past few posts).

Life is imperfect. The finance industry is extremely not perfect. In the ideal world from the consumer's perspective, there won't be commissioned agents selling toxic products and unit trust / ETF won't be allowed to charge exorbitant fees (>1% expense ratio). But reality is neither is true. Why? I suspect it's the way the system was originally setup, to serve the interests of the agents/brokers/fund managers, and not the clients. MAS handling of the minibond fiasco is downright pathetic compared to other regulators like in HK. I think that speak tons about the quality of regulation, enforcement and ethics in Singapore. Short answer is that there is effectively NONE.
 
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