Nvidia: nice intentions ? Think again...

[watzup_ken]

Gamers buy GPUs to play games. Miners and scalpers suck up all the GPUs they can lay their hands on to make money. You think increasing production will solve the problem? If I am a miner or scalper, I'll be very happy coz more GPU I can get = more $$$ for me. Too bad for the gamers who can't afford $1,000+ GPUs.

Segregation offers a chance for nVidia to cater for both gamers (primary market) and miners (secondary market). Why have both gamers and miners fighting for the same product (and pissing your primary market off) when you can sell 2 versions at the same time? It's a win-win for them. It might even help with the scalping issue since miners are the ones more likely to pay higher prices for GPUs.

The thing I am more curious about is how the crippling is executed. Can it be say, 1/20 instead of 1/2?

If you think that Nvidia is the knight in shining armor, then I think you are too nice to them. Think from a business angle, why Nvidia will want to segregate their product between miners and gamers? In doing so, they can market that they want to help gamers, but in reality, is that really the primary reason, or just a by product of their actual intentions?

What we know now are that most of the mining cards from Nvidia are Turing cards as reported by a few sites. The thing is, will it always be a Turing card? I feel they are just repurposing leftover Turing cards as mining cards for now since TSMC have their hands full and unlikely to deliver a healthy supply of Turing chips in short notice. Since Nvidia does not reveal a lot of information on the mining cards (i.e. no mentioned of number of CUDA cores like they did with "gaming" cards), they probably have to switch over to Ampere cards at some point. Supply is finite, so if they have to make a decision to allocate between mining and gamers cards, what makes you think they will do a 50:50 split when the mining cards will likely be significantly more profitable? Scalping will not go away because its obvious that scalping thrives when there is limited supply, and this is going to persist with or without Nvidia creating a new mining series.

 

[watzup_ken]

nVidia fanboys can't or refuse to see this. CMP cards isn't gonna help them out in the future when the mining craze die down unlike the GTX 1000 series cards did which affected the sale of Turing (RTX 2000 series) cards. In effect, cutting off supply of what would otherwise be Turing and Ampere cards for gamers in the future. In other words, nVidia is killing two birds with one stone, like you'd said, and nVidia boys are defending them and thanking them for it.

One thing I'll admit, nVidia has a great marketing and PR dept, masterful spin doctors they are!

I feel Nvidia probably see a need to soften any pushbacks by saying that they are helping gamers really. And you can certainly tell its working since people are jumping to their defense even though they have not seen any tangible results from the product segregation. Its almost the same where EPIC wanting to maximize profit on iOS and Android is marketing that they want to "free" gamers. The ultimate motive is always dollars and cents. The rest is just like putting lipstick on a pig that's all.

 

[elmariachi]

If you think that Nvidia is the knight in shining armor, then I think you are too nice to them. Think from a business angle, why Nvidia will want to segregate their product between miners and gamers? In doing so, they can market that they want to help gamers, but in reality, is that really the primary reason, or just a by product of their actual intentions?

What we know now are that most of the mining cards from Nvidia are Turing cards as reported by a few sites. The thing is, will it always be a Turing card? I feel they are just repurposing leftover Turing cards as mining cards for now since TSMC have their hands full and unlikely to deliver a healthy supply of Turing chips in short notice. Since Nvidia does not reveal a lot of information on the mining cards (i.e. no mentioned of number of CUDA cores like they did with "gaming" cards), they probably have to switch over to Ampere cards at some point. Supply is finite, so if they have to make a decision to allocate between mining and gamers cards, what makes you think they will do a 50:50 split when the mining cards will likely be significantly more profitable? Scalping will not go away because its obvious that scalping thrives when there is limited supply, and this is going to persist with or without Nvidia creating a new mining series.

It makes little sense that these mining cards have dedicated production lines. I think most of this is down to the BIOS which will limit the hashrate through secured handshake with the hardware. I see no reason why they would spend extra costs to split this when they are essentially the same GPU die.

Also, I think nvidia is just doing all this to prevent the backlash but deep down from a commercial perspective, they would much rather sell it to the miner's. And they are probably doing it through shadow dealers and trusted sources which eats up the bulk of the supply which is why this whole thing sucks and prices are creeping up.

 

[CI]

Of course you are right in this. Miners don't care about gamers. However, you are probably mistaken if you think nVidia on the other hand actually cares much about gamers too, which is what the whole topic of this thread is about. The point has been made in the video - as a private business, they only really need to care about their shareholders, who in turn don't care who nvidia sells their stuff to as long as it makes money.

In the first place, you think that primary/secondary market is based on principles. Nvidia is not a charity or even a "business with a cause". Whichever market is bigger in terms of REVENUE, IS the primary target market. Guess who has more money to buy their stuff with? Put it another way: nvidia is a business, and every decision is a business decision. You are only as valuable to them as how much you add to their bottom line.

Increasing production of regular GPUs helps because it helps with overall availability. If they release 10000 GPUs at a time instead of 10, everyone has a better chance of getting one.

Edit: the other point made in the video is also that GPUs sold to miners will eventually find their way into the hands of regular users thru sales of pre-used units while it will never happen with CMPs. This was shown in the case of the 10 series vs. 20 series availability in the resale market. Of course, everyone prefers to have it new and have it now, but if that's not happening for the 30 series, then at least some time down the road we can still get some of it via resale. Used doesn't mean unusable. Proper miners actually put a lot of effort into maintaining their cards running on optimal cooling and performance, probably more than the average PC user or even gamer.

Oh well, truth is out there. If you don't agree that's fine. End of the day, the outcome will show whether what Nvidia says really works or not.

Of course, nVidia as a business cares about making money and answering to their shareholders. I said before, why make 2 customers fight for the same pie when they can segregate the market and earn money off both of them, hence nVidia just expanded their market.

You think nVidia can simply increase GPU output on the order of 1000x and the problem will go away? You do know there's severe shortage in the semiconductor industry now? Demand is up to 30% above supply and not expected to be resolved for up to next 6 quarters. Or you wanna come up with a more realistic figure on how much production can be increased and honestly ask yourself if it's gonna change the status quo.

Alternatively, please suggest another way to resolve the current shortage. nVidia is no angel but at least they are trying something that might work. We should know in ~6 months time.

If you think that Nvidia is the knight in shining armor, then I think you are too nice to them. Think from a business angle, why Nvidia will want to segregate their product between miners and gamers? In doing so, they can market that they want to help gamers, but in reality, is that really the primary reason, or just a by product of their actual intentions?

What we know now are that most of the mining cards from Nvidia are Turing cards as reported by a few sites. The thing is, will it always be a Turing card? I feel they are just repurposing leftover Turing cards as mining cards for now since TSMC have their hands full and unlikely to deliver a healthy supply of Turing chips in short notice. Since Nvidia does not reveal a lot of information on the mining cards (i.e. no mentioned of number of CUDA cores like they did with "gaming" cards), they probably have to switch over to Ampere cards at some point. Supply is finite, so if they have to make a decision to allocate between mining and gamers cards, what makes you think they will do a 50:50 split when the mining cards will likely be significantly more profitable? Scalping will not go away because its obvious that scalping thrives when there is limited supply, and this is going to persist with or without Nvidia creating a new mining series.

Nope, nVidia has always been about business. I don't hold any illusions about them being some nice benign company given their dodgy and less than honest business practices all the way back to their FX5800U dustbuster debacle.

As for detail specs of the CMP series, you can find it here:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/?mfgr=NVIDIA&generation=Mining GPUs&sort=name
Not sure how accurate it is tho.

You have your speculation on what nVidia will do next. I have my take. We'll just have to wait and see. Maybe the shift to Eth 2.0 might even lessen the pressure somewhat.

 

[soltrdc]

I said before, why make 2 customers fight for the same pie when they can segregate the market and earn money off both of them, hence nVidia just expanded their market.

You should realize that they have already been earning money from "both of them", with or without CMP. Gamers not getting their cards doesn't hurt their bottom line one bit, not when everything is selling out the moment it leaves the factory floor.

Resource shortage will not be solved overnight, therefore make more separate product lines to divert the same finite resources into? Call me an idiot but that doesn't seem like a solution to me.

 

[soltrdc]

Alternatively, please suggest another way to resolve the current shortage. nVidia is no angel but at least they are trying something that might work. We should know in ~6 months time.

Now here's a suggestion, since you asked: everyone stop sucking up their nonsense spin and put pressure on them to properly get their production up and distribution channels in place.

I don't know if you've heard of nVidia's PR fiasco last year. A well-known YouTube reviewer was snubbed by Nvidia because they gave honest reviews about the value of ray tracing for gamers today. Nvidia sent them a mean spirited letter and basically told them they were not sending any more cards to them to review until they "changed their editorial direction". The YouTubers made the letter public, other popular YouTubers rallied behind them, it became a PR shitstorm for nVidia and finally the CEO himself issued an apology and backtracked on their stance.

Why do I share this unrelated story? Because it shows what Nvidia really is. Because it shows that they will respond if people won't let them get away with their BS. This is all about PR for them. They make the thing, it gets sold, who really cares anything further! Some companies like EVGA run their own waitlist, Newegg have their Newegg shuffle, even our local distro try to do something to make stocks available to general public but Nvidia, what are they really doing? Notice AMD, who is basically the only other major consumer GPU manufacturer is not following suit. They on the other hand, talked about looking at how to increase production so that AIB partners can sell aftermarket cards closer to AMD's MSRP. Of course, they are also at the mercy of the resource shortage, but at least the direction is sound, instead of some nice story that doesn't solve anything.

Some of you think I'm being mean or incendiary, I make no apologies. I just call BS as it is. Sure, let's wait 6 months and see. I'm just calling it now. If I'm wrong, even better, I'll gladly concede.

 

[Audiology93]

Actually I am very curious

1. how many gamer actually bought the second hand gpu from miner from 2 years back in SG?

2. How is it perform as of today? No degrading of quality or any issue?

I can't seems to find any remarks from this question in hwz forum...

I believe the ZOTAC 1070ti mini I bought is a 2nd hand miner card. The card was only 8 months old and the warranty is until 2023 so I just bought it. It's still working fine as of now as I've undervolted the card and reduced the clockspeed since I'm playing most of my games on low settings.

Sent from Xiaomi Mi 11 using GAGT

 

[wwenze]

The mathematics related to speed of reaction is something taught in JC chemistry & bio I believe...

You have reactant A and X which react to form AX

A (8nm) is in shortage, X is in abundance (the rest of the parts)

AX is bottlenecked by A

Now you add a new reactant, B (12nm)

Now the products are AX + BX; AX is still mainly bottlenecked by A, but some people argue if X is finite then the quantity of AX might be reduced.

Regardless of the above assumption (orange), total quantity of AX + BX is now higher because X is not the bottleneck.

Now let's take the maths one stage further: AX and BX are both being consumed by processes known as "Miner" and "Gamer".

The rate of consumption of AX by "Miner" is reduced according to NVDA, so there will be more AX available for "Gamer"
Some people may argue that the action taken by NVDA may not work. (Orange, as again, this is an assumption.)

Some people also argue that BX could have been used by gamers but now it couldn't, and there are gamers who are waiting to buy BX (gamer edition). However the question is, would BX (gamer edition) have appeared otherwise?

Notice the difference in numbers of blue (conclusion) vs orange (assumption) text.

Examples of Occam's Razor: Principle Simply Explainedexamples.yourdictionary.com › examples-of-occam-s-r...
Occam's razor indicates that the simplest explanation — that is, the solution that requires the fewest assumptions — is preferable.

A simple hypothetical scenario is, if nvidia just gimped 8nm for mining but did not re-release 12nm, would the situation be better or worse? This is probably the biggest point of contention, quoted from above:

Now the products are AX + BX; AX is still mainly bottlenecked by A, but some people argue if X is finite then the quantity of AX might be reduced.

 

[Clearnfc]

I believe the ZOTAC 1070ti mini I bought is a 2nd hand miner card. The card was only 8 months old and the warranty is until 2023 so I just bought it. It's still working fine as of now as I've undervolted the card and reduced the clockspeed since I'm playing most of my games on low settings.

Sent from Xiaomi Mi 11 using GAGT

I still keep a RX580 for gaming and its working fine even today (no more warrantY). I even sold 1 to my colleague for $100 (his old GPU kaput), it was working fine till Dec 2020. It didn't die, just that he built a new PC and bought RTX3070 mainly to play cyberpunk. Ask him to keep the RX580 as spare card.

 

[watzup_ken]

Nope, nVidia has always been about business. I don't hold any illusions about them being some nice benign company given their dodgy and less than honest business practices all the way back to their FX5800U dustbuster debacle.

As for detail specs of the CMP series, you can find it here:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/?mfgr=NVIDIA&generation=Mining GPUs&sort=name
Not sure how accurate it is tho.

You have your speculation on what nVidia will do next. I have my take. We'll just have to wait and see. Maybe the shift to Eth 2.0 might even lessen the pressure somewhat.

As of now, the specs from TechPowerUp is accurate. But as to how long it will stay accurate, nobody can be sure. My take is that TechPowerUp only updates this spec sheet based on whatever public information that is available. Since Nvidia did not openly share the specs other than the mining capability of each card, so we can't tell if they will eventually switch to Ampere once Turing chip runs out.

 

[soltrdc]

Now the products are AX + BX; AX is still mainly bottlenecked by A, but some people argue if X is finite then the quantity of AX might be reduced.

reality check: this is not theoretical, it IS the situation now.

X = silicon, water, manpower, time etc etc etc

Some people suggest that introduction of CMP is just nVidia's way of repurposing failed dies from the Turing production. Nothing wrong with this, but doesn't take away from the fact that to really address shortage of current generation products, efforts have to be put into more places than repurposing old goods. If anything, it helps them get rid of stock that would otherwise be redundant but it doesn't help the general PC user since we still face a shortage overall of consumer-grade GPUs.

Now here's a theoretical situation to consider: CMP does so well that nvidia diverts new resources into making it in the future. What will happen to consumer side then? Now that they've started the CMP product line, will they shut it down or downscale to focus on consumer GPUs when faced with a resource crunch? Food for thought..

 

[soltrdc]

https://www.pcgamer.com/nvidia-gtx-1060-back-palit-p106/

Some excerpts from the article:

The scenario nvidia is trying to avoid:

"Back during the last big cryptocurrency mining craze both AMD and Nvidia responded to the then-unprecedented demand by massively upping its GPU manufacturing, though when the bottom fell out of the market second-hand cards started flooding the market. That meant no-one wanted to buy new cards, which left both the green and red teams—and their graphics card partners—with a huge amount of excess stock sitting in warehouses across the globe."

Bursting the dream that CMP won't affect consumer GPUs:

"Nvidia has itself announced it's releasing specific CMP cards specifically for GPU mining, as a way to take the pressure off the GeForce market, and that those GPUs are a mix and match of one Ampere chip at the high end and a bunch of older Turing silicon making up the bulk of the Nvidia CMP lineup."

The "high end" is referring to the 90HX, which is reportedly exactly the same as the 3080. The 3080 is tbh the best enthusiast GPU with a great balance of peak performance vs. price point.

So, see what Nvidia is doing:

1. Not making more consumer GPUs to meet demand so as to cover their ass in case crypto tanks
2. Taking away precious Ampere dies and GDDR6X memory chips from arguably their best 30 series GPU offering to cater to the 90HX CMP
3. Leaving the very top tier (high price premium) 3090 and lower tier 3070/3060 to milk people who think that they are Mr. Niceguy.

They are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Let's not have any illusions about that. There's no guarantee that public pressure will have any effect, but buying into their spin certainly won't help.

 

[Yongkit]

I start to feel short in this GPU arena as all seems to have master degree in business, the discussion here are getting more complicated to me as layman

 

[soltrdc]

I start to feel short in this GPU arena as all seems to have master degree in business, the discussion here are getting more complicated to me as layman

Lol bro, no worries. This thread is just discussing nvidia's move of launching CMP as a supposed solution to the GPU shortage. Some of us think they are good guys, while TS + the rest of us think they r not, that's all.

Nvidia made their move, they not gonna change it for us, so really tbh all we r doing here is say what we think/feel.

 

[Yongkit]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-wins-lawsuit-cryptocurrency-mining-related-sales

Does this news changes anything for cmp cards?

 

[soltrdc]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-wins-lawsuit-cryptocurrency-mining-related-sales

Does this news changes anything for cmp cards?

Something doesn't match up somewhere

First is Nvidia's investors are upset not because they sell to miners, but that they didn't disclose how much of the business was from miners and "only found out" when nvidia released their financial outlook post-mining bust.

Second is in America, there is such a thing as using class action lawsuits to gouge money from big corporations, and this lawsuit smells like one of those.

Third is Nvidia may be downplaying their sales to miners to preserve a sort of positive public image

Fourth is the launch of CMP indicates they are expanding, not reducing, their reach into crypto mining. Whether this is a long term approach remains to be seen.



TL: DR - nvidia is playing games to earn more money. Unfortunately, we still have to buy their stuff since they are only one of two major consumer GPU producers. The more successful CMP is, the higher the chance "gaming" GPU takes a hit in the future, unless nvidia somehow figures out a huge resource supply.

 

[Yongkit]

Something doesn't match up somewhere

First is Nvidia's investors are upset not because they sell to miners, but that they didn't disclose how much of the business was from miners and "only found out" when nvidia released their financial outlook post-mining bust.

Second is in America, there is such a thing as using class action lawsuits to gouge money from big corporations, and this lawsuit smells like one of those.

Third is Nvidia may be downplaying their sales to miners to preserve a sort of positive public image

Fourth is the launch of CMP indicates they are expanding, not reducing, their reach into crypto mining. Whether this is a long term approach remains to be seen.



TL: DR - nvidia is playing games to earn more money. Unfortunately, we still have to buy their stuff since they are only one of two major consumer GPU producers. The more successful CMP is, the higher the chance "gaming" GPU takes a hit in the future, unless nvidia somehow figures out a huge resource supply.

Ya I think so too.

Point 1 - cmp card come into business line to rectify the shortcomings of their current reporting. If it fails means it justified the claims earlier mining really not a major income to their business line.

Point 2 and 3 is quite common in us businesses.

Point 4 is expectations vs reality coming next financial year results.

End of the days they are still top gun in gpu

 

[Yongkit]

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-might-be-working-on-rdna-cryptomining-cards

AMD version possible?

 

[kenzi87]

So long Nvidia or AMD get the sale first hand, the card cant resell also not their issue and not impacting them

 

[Yongkit]

Recently there have been topic on the high temperature >100c of gaming GPU memory junction temperature reading concerns for mining purposes.

If the CMP card was able to resolved this heat issue with better thermal pad for the vRAM, wondering if the situation will be turnaround and really attract the minor moving to CMP card instead of gaming GPU?