Poems offering Amundi UT

[hanabi0364]

According to this Reddit thread, it seems like transferring UT into POEMS is possible. But according to one poster - it’s taking very long (1.5 months as of writing).

https://www.reddit.com/r/singaporefi/s/FtWNF87Yux

 

[yslvlys]

So far based on discussion here, cons of Poems Amundi:
- lousy platform / customer service
- may charge or increase platform fee in future
- Poems may go bust in future
- higher withholding tax vs ETFs

Any others?

 

[krikering]

So far based on discussion here, cons of Poems Amundi:
- lousy platform / customer service
- may charge or increase platform fee in future
- Poems may go bust in future
- higher withholding tax vs ETFs

Any others?

For the above (in bold), think if the strategy is to simply buy Amundi Prime USA (and other low cost UTs) won't apply?

 

[o2atom]

So far based on discussion here, cons of Poems Amundi:
- lousy platform / customer service
- may charge or increase platform fee in future
- Poems may go bust in future
- higher withholding tax vs ETFs

Any others?

#2 - there is also no guarantee Endowus will not change/increase the platform fee in the future

#3 - clients' assets are segregared from Phillip's assets, hence, it is not an issue.

 

[yslvlys]

For the above (in bold), think if the strategy is to simply buy Amundi Prime USA (and other low cost UTs) won't apply?

Amundi US UT has 30% WHT as compared to 15% for Ireland domiciled US ETFs.

 

[marcoyeo]

Amundi US UT has 30% WHT as compared to 15% for Ireland domiciled US ETFs.

Actually I am quite confused with this dividend WHT. But there is no dividend paid, how will investors get taxed?

 

[yslvlys]

Actually I am quite confused with this dividend WHT. But there is no dividend paid, how will investors get taxed?

Oh Haha is it. Then problem solved! I dunno why above pple talk about the dividend. For me even if it pays dividend, the WHT difference is fine with me as it is so minute, and buying ETFs will incur forex and brokerage fees, so I'm OK with Poems Amundi UT.

 

[limster]

I agree its very small. Lets take the long term S&P500 long term dividend yield of 1.82% (current yield is less than long term yield so the difference is smaller).

You invest $100,000.
Dividend $1820

Amundi Prime USA withholding $546 (TER 0.05%) Expenses $50. Total subtracted/yr: $596
CSPX UCITS ETF withholding $273 (TER 0.07%) Expenses $70. Total subtracted/yr: $343
LSPU Amundi Synthetic S&P500 UCITS ETF witholding $0 (TER 0.05%) Expenses. Total subtracted/yr $50


For every $100k invested per year, the annual difference is:
$596 vs $343 vs $50

its not going to make the difference between FIRE and poverty.....

I also wonder why people are more worried about Poems going bust but not worried about Endowus. Poems is profitable. When FSMOne introduced platform fees, Poems declared 'no platform fees' and they have stuck to it.

The last financial report by Endowus released in Sep 2024 says they were losing money (though I presume that they have turned profitable by now, but we don't know). We also don't know the impact of Poems selling Amundi funds on Endowus business yet. Only time will tell.

 

[yslvlys]

I agree its very small. Lets take the long term S&P500 long term dividend yield of 1.82% (current yield is less than long term yield so the difference is smaller).

You invest $100,000.
Dividend $1820

Amundi Prime USA withholding $546 (TER 0.05%) Expenses $50. Total subtracted/yr: $596
CSPX UCITS ETF withholding $273 (TER 0.07%) Expenses $70. Total subtracted/yr: $343
LSPU Amundi Synthetic S&P500 UCITS ETF witholding $0 (TER 0.05%) Expenses. Total subtracted/yr $50


For every $100k invested per year, the annual difference is:
$596 vs $343 vs $50

But I just checked Amundi US Prime has no records of paying a dividend. So maybe it's an accumulating fund and the WHT issue is a non-starter?

 

[limster]

But I just checked Amundi US Prime has no records of paying a dividend. So maybe it's an accumulating fund and the WHT issue is a non-starter?

if you read their financial statements the withholding tax they pay is stated.

 

[marcoyeo]

if you read their financial statements the withholding tax they pay is stated.

Does dividend WHT get deducted from the NAV or units?

 

[Equivocal2011]

Poems offering Amundi unit trusts

https://www.poems.com.sg/unit-trusts/funds-offered/fund-manager/amundi-singapore-limited-565/

Amundi Index MSCI World A12S (C) SGD

• Expense Ratio = 0.1%
• https://www.poems.com.sg/fund-finder/amundi-index-msci-world-a12s-c-sgd-565001/
• https://www.amundi.com.sg/retail/product/view/LU2420245917

Amundi Prime USA AS (C) SGD

• Expense Ratio = 0.05%
• https://www.poems.com.sg/fund-finder/565004/
• https://www.amundi.com.sg/retail/product/view/LU2420246055

Amundi Index MSCI Emerging Markets A12S (C) SGD

• Expense Ratio = 0.2%
• https://www.poems.com.sg/fund-finder/amundi-index-msci-emerging-markets-a12s-c-sgd-565003/
• https://www.amundi.com.sg/retail/product/view/LU2420246139

Amundi Index Global Aggregate Bond A12HS (C) SGD

• Expense Ratio = 0.1%
• https://www.poems.com.sg/fund-finder/amundi-index-global-aggregate-bond-a12hs-c-sgd-565002/
• https://www.amundi.com.sg/retail/product/view/LU2420246212

Other details

• Pay by Cash, CPFOA and SRS
• Min Invest = $1, Subsequent Invest = $1
• Min RSP = $100 monthly or $250 Quarterly
• Sales Charge = 0%, Platform Fee = 0%, Switching Fee = 0%
• https://www.poems.com.sg/unit-trusts/
• https://www.poems.com.sg/pricing/

Is this real for retail investors or another DollarDex saga?

Edited: Is real
https://www.moneyowl.com.sg/owlinvest/
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/159z9BtuFk/

This is a good development overall for consumers.
But I’m into EndowUS and have many referral rewards .
Lazy to switch around.

 

[krikering]

I agree its very small. Lets take the long term S&P500 long term dividend yield of 1.82% (current yield is less than long term yield so the difference is smaller).

You invest $100,000.
Dividend $1820

Amundi Prime USA withholding $546 (TER 0.05%) Expenses $50. Total subtracted/yr: $596
CSPX UCITS ETF withholding $273 (TER 0.07%) Expenses $70. Total subtracted/yr: $343
LSPU Amundi Synthetic S&P500 UCITS ETF witholding $0 (TER 0.05%) Expenses. Total subtracted/yr $50


For every $100k invested per year, the annual difference is:
$596 vs $343 vs $50

its not going to make the difference between FIRE and poverty.....

I also wonder why people are more worried about Poems going bust but not worried about Endowus. Poems is profitable. When FSMOne introduced platform fees, Poems declared 'no platform fees' and they have stuck to it.

The last financial report by Endowus released in Sep 2024 says they were losing money (though I presume that they have turned profitable by now, but we don't know). We also don't know the impact of Poems selling Amundi funds on Endowus business yet. Only time will tell.

Not surprised as Endowus has spent a lot on advertising, their advertisements are in TV, YouTube ads, banners and cinemas, etc.

Also Endowus is relatively newer compared to POEMs. They started in 2017 whereas POEMs started in 1996.

Maybe once Endowus's brand name grow bigger and more people becomes more receptive to UTs, their clientele will grow bigger and thus their profits.

As of now, what I see from the people around me guess that they trade ETFs/Shares more because they can buy/sell anytime and lower expense ratios (in general, not taking into currency conversion and brokerage fees).

When Endowus grows more profits and thus obtain more capital, their platform fee might lower in the long run, as a result due to the fact that they can absorb more of the costs spent on maintaining their app/website interface more.

POEMs is a part of Phillip Capital, which has been around since 1975 too. Future is really difficult to say, as a lot of the factors come into play in the long run. Guess just play by ear for the time being.

 

[limster]

When Endowus grows more profits and thus obtain more capital, their platform fee might lower in the long run, as a result due to the fact that they can absorb more of the costs spent on maintaining their app/website interface more.

You are absolutely correct that the greater their AUM, the cheaper their unit costs are, because $1m account and a $10,000 account "costs" about the same.

Philip Capital AUM US$50Bn (philip website)
iFast AUM S$22.37Bn (ifast website)
Endowus AUM US$7bn (endowus website)

Competition is good. When you see FSMOne etc, offering such good promotions like 0% commission RSP of ETFs, its because of competition from the roboadvisors like Endowus

Similarly, if Endowus lowers its fees, customers should thank Poems for nudging them

 

[krikering]

You are absolutely correct that the greater their AUM, the cheaper their unit costs are, because $1m account and a $10,000 account "costs" about the same.

Philip Capital AUM US$50Bn (philip website)
iFast AUM S$22.37Bn (ifast website)
Endowus AUM US$7bn (endowus website)

Competition is good. When you see FSMOne etc, offering such good promotions like 0% commission RSP of ETFs, its because of competition from the roboadvisors like Endowus

Similarly, if Endowus lowers its fees, customers should thank Poems for nudging them

POEMs should also thanks Endowus for the idea of Amundi UTs also . They were amongst the pioneers who brought in the low cost UTs into the market in the first place, POEMs were more Shares/ETFs-focused previously, if not wrong.

Think it will not be long before similar low-costs UTs like the iShares US Index (IE) S&P 500 make their way to POEMs too. If Endowus can eventually lower their platform fee to 0.05%-0.1%, will pick it over 0% platform fee POEMs due to the better customer service provided and also better interface.

Hope that Endowus lowering their platform fee will not be at the expense of their services/features imo, may be just me only but personally feel that Endowus's website/app offer users a smoother experience as compared to POEMs.


Endowus only started in 2017 and is relatively newer, guess perhaps the space for growth is big in the long run. Only had positive experience thus far, dealing with their customer service so guess will continue with them at least in immediate future ba.

 

[s0crates]

So far based on discussion here, cons of Poems Amundi:
- lousy platform / customer service
- may charge or increase platform fee in future
- Poems may go bust in future
- higher withholding tax vs ETFs

Any others?

2 and 3 is an issue because when you switch, you are out of market and might be forced to sell low buy high.

You are absolutely correct that the greater their AUM, the cheaper their unit costs are, because $1m account and a $10,000 account "costs" about the same.

Philip Capital AUM US$50Bn (philip website)
iFast AUM S$22.37Bn (ifast website)
Endowus AUM US$7bn (endowus website)

Competition is good. When you see FSMOne etc, offering such good promotions like 0% commission RSP of ETFs, its because of competition from the roboadvisors like Endowus

Similarly, if Endowus lowers its fees, customers should thank Poems for nudging them

I don't think Phillips capital AUM is necessarily a reflection of assets that they earn fees from. If you buy and hold single listed stocks or ETFs on your platform, are you earning fees? Probably no right.

While some people take comfort that poems is profitable, I weigh the fact that they are a old school brokerage more heavily.

You go ask a youngster now if they heard of Maybank securities, lim&tan, and they probably say no. POEMs is not any different, maybe just slightly better. Once their remisiers retire and their clients pass away, there is no more revenue for them to speak of.

Youngsters overwhelmingly use moomoo/tiger, smarter ones use IBKR. No one outside of Reddit/hwz would have heard about poems. Heck, even this poems development is new.

A lot of ways to look at it la. Like if you are an investor would you invest in the new age platforms or a traditional platform. If you are a talented coder/RM would you join the traditional players or the up and coming firm. If you are IT Maintenance you rather work in a fintech firm or try to stop DBS from crashing again and work with some unknown outsourced service provider....

If you want to save the 0.3% p.a., and you shifted, I think you truly deserve the fee saving. I don't think I can bear to "cost" the savings.

 

[RedsYWNA]

A lot of ways to look at it la. Like if you are an investor would you invest in the new age platforms or a traditional platform. If you are a talented coder/RM would you join the traditional players or the up and coming firm. If you are IT Maintenance you rather work in a fintech firm or try to stop DBS from crashing again and work with some unknown outsourced service provider....

If you want to save the 0.3% p.a., and you shifted, I think you truly deserve the fee saving. I don't think I can bear to "cost" the savings.

I am shifting my CPF OA investment from Endowus to poems. No doubt Endowus interface is great, but for passive funds, I dont think the customer can be blamed for choosing the lowest cost commodity.

Any collapse of an old-school brokerage like Philips Securities will be slow. I can just switch back to Endowus if and when it happens. At this juncture, I think it's more likely that Endowus be bought out by another brokerage, than Poems closing shop.

I am keeping my SRS with Endowus though.

 

[krikering]

I am shifting my CPF OA investment from Endowus to poems. No doubt Endowus interface is great, but for passive funds, I dont think the customer can be blamed for choosing the lowest cost commodity.

Any collapse of an old-school brokerage like Philips Securities will be slow. I can just switch back to Endowus if and when it happens. At this juncture, I think it's more likely that Endowus be bought out by another brokerage, than Poems closing shop.

I am keeping my SRS with Endowus though.

To each his/her own, I currently have $1500 Cash and $2000 CPF OA respectively on Amundi Prime USA Fund with Endowus
(Alongside $700 Cash in iShares US Index Fund (IE) S&P 500).

The platform fee yearly is around $12-$13 + for me (depending on the NAV after each year).

For the better quality customer service and app interface, will just bear it for time being.

Hopefully, this will create more competition which in turn influence Endowus to lower their platform fee charges abit in few months time.

 

[CaptainWu]

To each his/her own, I currently have $1500 Cash and $2000 CPF OA respectively on Amundi Prime USA Fund with Endowus
(Alongside $700 Cash in iShares US Index Fund (IE) S&P 500).

The platform fee yearly is around $12-$13 + for me (depending on the NAV after each year).

For the better quality customer service and app interface, will just bear it for time being.

Hopefully, this will create more competition which in turn influence Endowus to lower their platform fee charges abit in few months time.

I like Endowus platform and for those like to see how portfolio performs they also provided the interface, they supplies a lot of institution funds with rebates to make it competetive, eg Pimco GIS Income. That said a lot of people is thinking Endowus would lower the cost to compete, just bear in mind they are still at a loss so I would think they probably look for other areas instead, rather than just focus on the Amundi fund.

 

[RedsYWNA]

To each his/her own, I currently have $1500 Cash and $2000 CPF OA respectively on Amundi Prime USA Fund with Endowus
(Alongside $700 Cash in iShares US Index Fund (IE) S&P 500).

The platform fee yearly is around $12-$13 + for me (depending on the NAV after each year).

For the better quality customer service and app interface, will just bear it for time being.

Hopefully, this will create more competition which in turn influence Endowus to lower their platform fee charges abit in few months time.

I have a 6 digit sum with Endowus, and given that the 0.3% is an annual fee, I think it just makes more sense to switch to the lowest cost commodity supplier, in this case - Poems.