Potentially illegal tenanting out of HDB / Abusing non-citizen family scheme?

marshmallow96

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The non-citizen family scheme has been around for decades already. I know several people who bought with their LTSVP parents using this scheme. For those pple I know, they really bought for genuine stay, not milking gao gao like this lady.. but still it's an established scheme so it's not like something illegal.

and it's very common for these old folks to spend half the time in SG and half the time in home countries... I am quite surprised TS found it strange cos I know so many until I lost count.
 

8zaoyu

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The non-citizen family scheme has been around for decades already. I know several people who bought ...
Decades ago my great-parents already settled here, HDB also mostly not built till after 1960s, don't know what kampongs housing they bought leh. And great-grandpa also had a few wives, scully married our own cousins, no wonder xiao xiao generations end up here in EDMW talk cock when actually everyone especially who needs to be with family needs housing! I just wonder who scheme who?
 
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marshmallow96

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Decades ago my great-parents already settled here, HDB also mostly not built till after 1960s, don't know what kampongs housing they bought leh. And great-grandpa also had a few wives, scully married our own cousins, no wonder xiao xiao generations end up here in EDMW talk cock when actually everyone especially who needs to be with family needs housing! I just wonder who scheme who?
great-grandparents going to count in centuries already not decades LOL... 1990s is already 3 decades ago though it can feel pretty recent
 

Bam25th

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TS, nice of you to bring this to awareness.

And like your updates says, there’s nothing unlawful. Even the most unlawful part which is the rental to friend for short term stay, at most warrants only a warning.

So, maybe our foreign becoming Singaporeans friends lurking in this forum will thank you for informing them of this loophole that has been around for ages 😅😅😅😂😂😂
 

8zaoyu

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great-grandparents going to count in centuries already not decades LOL... 1990s is already 3 decades ago though it can feel pretty recent
time passed so fast ha, one century ago pple were born before 1923 only, me n spouse already, MG/MJ generation, some great parents are marrying off their great grandchildren at the moment. And within these few years, another generation!
Gathering our ex-Malay kampungers, can challenge how wide the family pictures will be.
 

8zaoyu

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TS, nice of you to bring this to awareness.

And like your updates says, there’s nothing unlawful. Even the most unlawful part which is the rental to friend for short term stay, at most warrants only a warning.

So, maybe our foreign becoming Singaporeans friends lurking in this forum will thank you for informing them of this loophole that has been around for ages 😅😅😅😂😂😂
Supposedly, wrong to house overstayers. For one thing, illegal overstayers cannot find legal employment that covers insurance for them? and housing can be abused as dens
 

reiser

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So the point of you writing this post is to validate that this China girl you had meant to date is renting out her flat illegally? Are you bitter and resentful that she’s able to leverage on the system while you are able rejected by your own govt?

I hope this girl blocks you and stops communicating with you.
 

LWZ

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It does seem like she is within regulations, just barely.
 

8zaoyu

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So the point of you writing this post is to validate that this China girl you had meant to date is renting out her flat illegally? Are you bitter and resentful that she’s able to leverage on the system while you are able rejected by your own govt?

I hope this girl blocks you and stops communicating with you.
After his thread, some btw 31- 35 born-here singles WILL be very sore - got $ but cannot even buy RESALE HDB flats yet till AFTER 35. There are lots who sometimes work, some times study, not seeking partners till near 40, haiz
 

Evil_Boss

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Hi, I am a Singaporean who has been using a dating app and I met a ‘China’ girl and met up with her. I put within inverted commas because she is a naturalised SG citizen from China (came to SG at around age 14), who got her citizenship somewhere in 2018.
This information is from my interaction with her and is likely not 100% correct and complete, but I will give as much info as possible as to what I have gotten.

During the date, she mentioned she has her own house now. I thought that she got a condo since she is single and under 35. She then said she managed to get a 4-room resale flat in Punggol in 2019 (she is lucky too, right at the point of the SG property boom), and explained that she got it through an appeal to the HDB. She managed to get the flat by appealing that her parents would come to SG to stay with her. I believe she is appealing under the non-citizen family scheme based on my research. This is a combination is an SG citizen and foreign parents which therefore fulfils the criteria of forming a family nucleus, which is HDB’s main guiding principle. This scheme should be more unheard of as compared to the non-citizen spouse scheme.

The 4-room flat has 3 rooms. She stays in one room. She rents out the second room to a female China friend for a few years since the start up till now. She claims that she has been leaving the third vacant the majority of the time since it is reserved for her parents, who could not come to SG because of covid restrictions. However, she is currently renting her parents’ room out to another female China friend for a few months while her condo in SG is undergoing renovation.

Questionable points:
  1. Under this scheme, I believe her parents would have to dispose of their property in China within 6 months in order to qualify for the non-citizen family scheme. I’m not sure if she did that because from what I heard from her, her mum still has a house in China. Also, it is a fact that her parents are still staying the majority of the time in China the past few years, so I’m not sure where they are staying of they sold off their house there, unless she made special arrangements where they are living with her relatives.
    1. I’m not sure what the nuances here are in terms of this disposing of property arrangement. There might be some loophole here as well, since it might be much harder to track the number of property one has overseas of SG, and it could be easy to falsely report.
  2. She mentioned that her parents could not come back to SG because of covid restrictions etc but I think that should be more of an excuse. Even back then when covid restrictions were strict, one could still serve quarantine notices in order to come back to SG.
  3. The second point also leads to my point that her arrangement with her parents could be that she did not intend for her parents to be staying in SG permanently right from the start when she made her appeal. She claimed that her parents would have stayed in SG for a few months to half a year per year, but I doubt this as well - this kind of ‘half-overseas-half-SG’ living arrangement long term is quite unheard of and I think it is unsustainable in different aspects.
    1. Since she managed to get her HDB flat earlier as compared to other singles before 35, is there any special clause in her appeal? Something like her parents would need to be staying in SG for at least a certain period of time, until if she reaches 35 (the parity age where she would be able to get a HDB without any appeals)? So that she is fulfilling the criteria of forming the family nucleus?
      1. If there isn’t, then I think this could be a loophole especially for because newly minted SG citizens could easily appeal under this scheme and get a flat as a single
  4. Is she allowed to rent out just one room in the first place for her 4-room flat with 3 rooms? The arrangement: She stays in one room, her parents in the other, and there is still one vacant room? This might be legit because I believe the general HDB rules allow for this as long as the owner is staying in the unit, before MOP.
  5. Is there any clause in her appeal that forbids her from renting out 2 rooms instead of 1 room? Since her parents have to stay in one room and herself in the other. If not, then again this could be a loophole. Her parents could simply come to SG for a few days a year (like a short holiday to visit her), and for the vast majority of the rest of the year, she could be renting it out to gain rental income.
  6. Even if she is allowed to rent out just one room and even if there is no special arrangements required to be followed in her appeal, she did mention that she is also renting out another room to her China friend who is currently renovating her condo and has nowhere to stay, for a few months.
    1. This is questionable as well as the HDB renting rules states that one can only rent it out for at least 6 months and above anyway
  7. I’m not sure if she received any HDB grants since her arrangement is special under the appeal for the non-citizen family scheme. If she did, then this is again a loophole. The grants should be ‘locked’ or ‘frozen’ until she reaches age 35 so as to reach parity for the other singles who could only buy HDB at age 35.

If the above are indeed loopholes, single foreigners who turn singaporeans could easily exploit these loopholes and apply for this non-citizen family scheme. I am also feeling quite unjustified because I myself is also a single Singaporean (and a locally born one) but as compared to a newly minted single SG citizen, I am being disadvantaged in getting a HDB. I also made an appeal to HDB to get a flat myself (due to family issues, will not elaborate here) and got rejected by HDB.

What I allege that she is doing: She planned this appeal all along and went ahead with it once she got her SG citizenship in 2018. All these were part of her plan in order to get a HDB herself in order to rent out the rooms to get the income to pay off her mortgage, and so that she can save the money instead of getting a condo which is much more expensive. This can save her the effort of finding accommodation arrangements (e.g. hotel) when her parents indeed come to SG to visit her every year. At the same time, she also gets to gain from the capital appreciation by getting a ‘headstart’ to get her flat about 5 years earlier as opposed to getting it at age 35. The appreciation is applicable because the flat she chose is still new as of her time of buying the resale, it has only just MOP-ed at 5 years old. One could argue that she is taking advantage of public funds/taxpayers money because HDB is subsidised housing.

I basically questioned her actions for all the above but she insisted that she did nothing wrong and everything she is doing is within her legal rights and rules of the HDB.
Let me know what you think. Is everything above within the legal rights of her (parents not staying in SG and then renting out the rooms)? If yes, are these considered loopholes within the HDB rules?

If HDB and other authorities like ICA would like to investigate any of these, I believe they should be able to do so easily by:
  • Verifying the arrival and departure dates that her parents are coming into SG. This would be an indication as to whether her parents are fulfilling the criteria of staying in SG within the contract of her appeal, if there is any
  • Verify the period of tenanting of her 2 rooms to 2 tenants - if she is not allowed to tenant out any rooms until she is 35, or not allowed to tenant out more than 1 room until she is 35. Unless she also did not register her friend as a tenant and is allowing her for a short term stay <6 months, that itself is illegal

--------------------------
P.s. and Update to all: Just called HDB to report about it. But I told them obviously I do not have any details of her and her address, because obviously she wouldn't give me if she knew she is going to be investigated.
The HDB staff was patient to listen to the above story and help me assess if it is considered lawful or unlawful. Apparently the appeal she made was indeed very likely for her parents to retain their property overseas. The non-resident family scheme can indeed be applied without any appealing in the first place. After which, she is free to rent out the rooms in her flat for her remaining 2 rooms as long as she is staying there.

However, the only possible unlawful part is that she is renting to her friend for the second room for a few months (less than 6) - which if proven true, is actually flouting HDB rules. According to her, in the extreme case, even as a friend, if one needs to stay for an emergency in their friends' house for a few days, that is not allowed by the HDB rules. (people are probably taking the risk if they do that and HDB probably closes one eye on these)

mind ur own business la paotoh kia, she never give u sex then u angry ah
 

Evil_Boss

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After his thread, some btw 31- 35 born-here singles WILL be very sore - got $ but cannot even buy RESALE HDB flats yet till AFTER 35. There are lots who sometimes work, some times study, not seeking partners till near 40, haiz

her situation is the same as a singapore citizen btoing with their parents mah...whether or not she was from china is not material now.

its exactly the same as you, a singaporean BTOing with your mom/dad. your mom can be indian/malaysian/australian/singaporean it doesnt matter.

what is more funny is that TS in jealous enough to type out a long list of grief and actually report it :o

dating apps really got alot of weird people
 
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我要买GTR

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Lmao TS don't be a sabo kia lah. Still call HDB :ROFLMAO: to whistleblow sia sibeh throw face. Heng the girl nv give you contact woi :sneaky:
 

Pokémon

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her situation is the same as a singapore citizen btoing with their parents mah...whether or not she was from china is not material now.

Yup, this was also on top of my mind from his sour reply after mine, just lazy to reply to him further due to his narrow mind. There are some SG families who might have been staying in rental flats or under relative's roof or not having a property for whatever reasons, and finally could buy a flat of their own when the child has income even before turning 35.

Of course most SG families are not in situation, since most their parents would already have their own property.

I also do not see how he could proof the girl saying renting out to her friend for a few months, is actually less than 6 months. Of course, there is a possibility that she did not obtain approval from HDB for such rental. However, if it is already something of the past, she could easily deny doing so, or at most claim that the friend is staying over, rent-free.

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/...-bedroom/regulations-for-renting-out-bedrooms

Well, pretty sure there are likely many of such rentals going on too, like some SG/Malaysian couples I know of also renting out to their Malaysian friends without getting approval from HDB either.

Anyway, just live with the rejection and move on.
 

我要买GTR

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Yup, this was also on top of my mind from his sour reply after mine, just lazy to reply to him further due to his narrow mind. There are some SG families who might have been staying in rental flats or under relative's roof or not having a property for whatever reasons, and finally could buy a flat of their own when the child has income even before turning 35.

Of course most SG families are not in situation, since most their parents would already have their own property.

I also do not see how he could proof the girl saying renting out to her friend for a few months, is actually less than 6 months. Of course, there is a possibility that she did not obtain approval from HDB for such rental. However, if it is already something of the past, she could easily deny doing so, or at most claim that the friend is staying over, rent-free.

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/...-bedroom/regulations-for-renting-out-bedrooms

Well, pretty sure there are likely many of such rentals going on too, like some SG/Malaysian couples I know of also renting out to their Malaysian friends without getting approval from HDB either.

Anyway, just live with the rejection and move on.

Very common lah. If really kena questioned by authorities, they can just say they visiting.
 

mirdif

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Quite a salty post. The way it was structured with bullet points and paragraphs indicates that it was first written on a Word document, spell-checked, edited, etc.
I think the girl really dodged a bullet if she rejected the TS.
 
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her situation is the same as a singapore citizen btoing with their parents mah...whether or not she was from china is not material now.

its exactly the same as you, a singaporean BTOing with your mom/dad. your mom can be indian/malaysian/australian/singaporean it doesnt matter.

what is more funny is that TS in jealous enough to type out a long list of grief and actually report it :o

dating apps really got alot of weird people

parents must minimally be a SPR for BTO ba. Think SPR unlike LTVP, are less likely to have overseas property
 

Nanonited

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Why so many people so supportive of the girl? TS is just highlighting the disadvantage a local singaporean single with dependents in SG have vs a new citizen who enjoys the benefit of a HDB earlier than the local born singaporean.
 
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