Problems with Genneva Payout

[drago88]

Like what Albert Einstein say it beautifully, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

WHAT AN APT REMARK !!

For a balanced take on the GENNEVA debacle see the article below by Calvin Yeo, posted on his blog:

"Genneva Gold Trading Firm Gets Raided in both Singapore and Malaysia

10.02.2012 · Posted in Malaysia, Personal Development, Singapore
As a follow up to the law suit against Genneva Gold Trading Firm, the firm finally gets raided by the authorities. In a rare show of joint action, both Bank Negara, Malaysian police and Singapore Commercial Affairs Department raided Genneva offices in both Singapore and Malaysia. I wonder if they actually coordinated this together, but it will be good if they work together to quickly to investigate.

Apparently, the Malaysian newspaper reported that several people gathered outside the firm office to protest against the raid. They claimed that this firm has helped the livelihood of thousands of people, which is questionable. If anybody benefited it was probably the redirecting of the money of investors to the agents who made fat commissions *out of selling gold to unsuspecting investors under the scheme. Of course they would protest as they made tons of money from the scheme, but how about the even larger number of people who lost their life savings in this scheme?

According to Business Times, the management discovered “some financial improprieties” which led to the delay of payment of commissions and discounts. Apparently the company directors filed police reports as well. All of this looks like a show just to mislead investigators and buy time while hoping that gold prices would be lifted again by QE3. Unfortunately for them, gold prices have yet to rally to previous high and money has probably run out for them.

Apparently 3 of the directors are already being sued by Bank Negara for*alleged illegal deposit taking and alleged offences under anti-money laundering laws, one just wonders how they can fly under the radar for so long in Singapore.

The even more ridiculous part is that the directors previously operated under Genneva Sdn Bhd, and because it is under investigation and frozen by Bank Negara, guess what? They set up another company called Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd and continued running the same business. It sounded like they are already making the same transition in Singapore by asking current clients to move their “gold assets” from Genneva Pte Ltd to another company called Genneva World Pte Ltd. So there again, running through legal loopholes, the regulators better do something about it this time or they just open up company after company.

Whatever the outcome is, it will be an interesting case. It is also alarming to note that there are now even more copycat schemes which are operating openly in Singapore and Malaysia. Be smart and recognize the warning signs.

 

[mosaic1979]

I keep telling people NOT to listen to those GV agents....(idiots)
even explain what GV gonna do with the gold if they park their gold with them... in the end still got people willing to park the gold with them...

I also mentioned that GV is gonna close down soon and confirm close down!
reinvest is a good ideas to cover some losses but invest wisely on the platform that you choose....

NEVER GO BACK TO GENNEVA WORLD!!! (better listen to what i advice)
whatever they promised you are bullshi_t!!! (still the same group of clown running the show)

Did a few research... I personally will place a small bet on LEE SONG TECK & his rescue plan (not easy for a guy to face to face with the media and openly offer his rescue plan during this situation now) but then again some financial expert did warn about not to rush into any new product!!!
Any way for those who can't wait may listen to their offer and make your own betting on them... If it is gonna ended up be the same as GV... this LEE SONG TECK confirm and guarantee get it big time!!! (based on his profile... i don't think any possible he will do such stupid things and get himself into it)

The best part is he dare to stand up and face the media even both of his companies are listed on the IAL... but if we put the whole thing and make into a movie... whenever bad situation happened there is always a HERO that will show up and rescue those who in trouble...

So HERO is CAD? GV World? LEE SONG TECK?

hahaha..... My good friend do you know how well known Bernard Madoff was in the investment circle before his scheme collapsed? The fella did media interviews, hobnobbed with the big wigs (economists, bankers, politicians you name it), and was a big timer in the Jewish community man. Its called BUILDING TRUST.

Charles ponzi, the original big time scammer advertised on the newspapers, with the media etc as well. This is not new man. You do what you can to get you credibility. Its been recycled for decades....

But ok lah, thats life. If everyone is so smart and so easy to make money all of us will be rich already. So need some smart, some not so smart. Some greedy, some not so greedy. Even things out.

 

[bearbearfury]

Genneva Pte Ltd


this is it. end of genneva...


http://www.cad.gov.sg/topNav/faq/Genneva+Pte+Ltd.htm

 

[keanteac]

Nothing to lose lah.
I thought you all holding the physical gold bullion ?

 

[bearbearfury]

No. my wife gold was returned for checking for renewal...and.nvm got.it back

 

[drago88]

why renewal must check?
only relevant when sell back, ain't it?

 

[chex]

why renewal must check?
only relevant when sell back, ain't it?

recently heard that renewal must return gold temporarily for checking. They do some 'data dot' in the process. This is supposed to sort of 'mark' it that the buyer bought it from GV. Maybe becos they want to verify and check if the gold has been swap in the process or something like that. Heard that some fake gold circulating from china that contains tungsten.

Supposedly to return in 3 days. BUt there has been delays to return the gold before the raid. The initial batch who submitted the gold got back the gold within 3 days. Then some got back after 3 days, around 4-6 days, some 8 days...

Then also the rumor abt the parking of gold 70/30....this scheme existed in malaysia since gv started in mysia. The malaysians had no prob with the scheme. In sg it's different scheme cos sgporeans skeptical and need to hold all physical gold.

 

[PeacefulNemesis]

SIBU: Some 2,000 families in this town and over 60,000 Genneva Sdn Bhd (Geneva) gold traders throughout the country are affected by the freeze of their gold trading business by Bank Negara since Monday.

A senior consultant of Gevenna in Sibu, William Wong, told reporters at a peaceful rally at Sibu Gateway yesterday that he, liked the other traders and customers, was in a dilemma after Bank Negara Malaysia (BNM) had put a halt to their business, and could only wait for the outcome of investigation.

He said because he was the pioneer of the business here, many consultants, traders and customers flocked to see him in the last few days demanding an explanation for what was actually happening.

“I am just one of the traders and customers of the company but people seemed to think that I am a conman,” he said.

He said to show that he was merely one of them, he had no choice but to join the rest to hold the peaceful rally at the Gateway. Prior to the event, he said the police had advised them not to create a big disturbance to the peace in the town.

The peaceful rally was participated by about one hundred traders and customers of the company and it lasted for about 10 minutes. They used the rally to exchange views and express their discontentment over the freeze on the business.

They said they were confident the management of the company would be able to solve whatever problem with the authority concerned.

“There is no hidden agenda in our gold trading business as all payments were made either through cheques or Automated Telling Machines (ATM). Every transaction is being audited,” he claimed.

One of the customers, Francis Yu, said most of those wo had participated in the business were from the middle to low income groups.

“A number of us are retirees. With all the money and gold frozen by Bank Negara, we are at a loss as we can no longer earn money from the scheme. For now, we don’t know how to get back what we have invested,” he said.

He said quite a big number of the consultants were also full-timers and the freeze on the business had left them in a lurge on how to survive in the months to come with school going children and housing and car loans to pay.

Gold traders take to the street - Story | The Star Online

 

[climber99]

recently heard that renewal must return gold temporarily for checking. They do some 'data dot' in the process. This is supposed to sort of 'mark' it that the buyer bought it from GV. Maybe becos they want to verify and check if the gold has been swap in the process or something like that. Heard that some fake gold circulating from china that contains tungsten.

Supposedly to return in 3 days. BUt there has been delays to return the gold before the raid. The initial batch who submitted the gold got back the gold within 3 days. Then some got back after 3 days, around 4-6 days, some 8 days...

Then also the rumor abt the parking of gold 70/30....this scheme existed in malaysia since gv started in mysia. The malaysians had no prob with the scheme. In sg it's different scheme cos sgporeans skeptical and need to hold all physical gold.

The same fake gold news affects both sides. Customer scared get fake gold, they also scared get back fake gold from customers.

But real losers from this raid are those who parked their gold for the checks cos CAD bo bao return you your gold or money lor. Now nobody can do anything liao. Wait for CAD slowly do their investigation. I dun see how the customers are going to get anything back liao now.

 

[chex]

The same fake gold news affects both sides. Customer scared get fake gold, they also scared get back fake gold from customers.

But real losers from this raid are those who parked their gold for the checks cos CAD bo bao return you your gold or money lor. Now nobody can do anything liao. Wait for CAD slowly do their investigation. I dun see how the customers are going to get anything back liao now.

Yes...with the investigations it may take up to 2 yrs or more, although thru the link above to the cad website it said 3-6 mths.

Thank goodness my cousin who is also agent and customer tell me and my other family members not to surrender the gold for renewal. She also advised her customers not to park the gold.

In every industry, there are bad agents and good agents. Some will lie just to get the sale and commission. Same as GV, like someone said he/she heard others agents telling the clients to park gold. And some agents are just so blur to believe news and rumors or act without thinking etc.

 

[drago88]

recently heard that renewal must return gold temporarily for checking. They do some 'data dot' in the process. This is supposed to sort of 'mark' it that the buyer bought it from GV. Maybe becos they want to verify and check if the gold has been swap in the process or something like that. Heard that some fake gold circulating from china that contains tungsten.

Supposedly to return in 3 days. BUt there has been delays to return the gold before the raid. The initial batch who submitted the gold got back the gold within 3 days. Then some got back after 3 days, around 4-6 days, some 8 days...

Then also the rumor abt the parking of gold 70/30....this scheme existed in malaysia since gv started in mysia. The malaysians had no prob with the scheme. In sg it's different scheme cos sgporeans skeptical and need to hold all physical gold.

All the data dot thing is eye wash. They need to take back the gold to pass to another buyer in their great Musical Chair game. Same piece pass around many buyers.

 

[makav31i]

All the data dot thing is eye wash. They need to take back the gold to pass to another buyer in their great Musical Chair game. Same piece pass around many buyers.

While I do not know what they do with the gold, I find it really dumb to take out the PAMP bars from the seal to marked the gold bar is sold by them when there is a serial number of the bars... But then again they already screwed a lot of people so what is one more to screw the people by removing it from the seal and affecting the resale value of the gold...

 

[SuperHunk3488]

Apple to Apple??

GV's markup is higer than APB and TGG. If even with the higher margins they encounter problem now, how much confidence to you have in these 2 with lesser cash to work with.

Are you saying if the older bank close down... we should start putting our money in our own safe? (all banks work the same anyway)

And are you aware that every single week there are banks close down in the world...

Before we go into how much confindence for the 2 companies....
Do you really understand both coy business model well and care to share?

 

[PeacefulNemesis]

On the 1st of October 2012, Genneva Gold raided by both the authorities in Malaysia and Singapore for suspected offences including illegal deposit taking, money laundering, tax evasion and avoidance, false description (misrepresentations), appointment of agents without licence, and failing to lodge statutory documents.

Soon after, there are a lot of comments and denial by Genneva Gold customers & consultants (agents), and they start to blame the authorities. They are even set up Genneva Support Group on Facebook. In the group, there was a comment made by Richard Chew who clearly explained the scam and the flaw on Genneva business. Unfortunately, the comment was deleted within a few minutes.

I like to share his comment so that everyone understands the reason why Genneve Gold is indeed a scam. Read on his comments below,

“I can understand all the frustration that is being aired here. And it appears Genneva has been deliverying what they promised but forced to freeze their activities. .

However let me explain my view on the technical flaw in this scheme that warrants BNM to take such drastic action. My intention of giving my view is to help enlightened and hopefully will help many here to ask the right questions and direct it to the right party.

In any trading; there must be willing buyer & seller for a transaction to take place at a price agreeable by both parties. The seller will profit from the transaction and the buyer will receive the goods / service. Very clear cut exchange.

However in this scheme, technically the seller do not ‘realized’ its profit yet from the transaction because there is a contractual obligation that a monthly ‘gift’ of 2-3% is given to the buyer and the buyer has the option to sell back the gold at the original purchased price. In this aspect, the seller’s obligations to the buyer becomes a Liability to the seller. To put it in another words, it is the buyer that will receive the profits rather than the seller in this transaction scheme.

Therefore technically this transaction scheme cannot be deemed as trading because the seller doesn’t profit from the goods sold. If it is not trading then where does this lead to?

My next statement may sound absurd and may anger many of you here but please bear with me. My intention is to explain so we can have better judgement & help us understand why Bank Negara has to step in and take drastic measure.

I am saying this scheme is not trading because it is more inclined to money lending business which must be regulated under our Malaysia law. Yes, I just said it; this Genneva scheme is basically a money lending scheme misrepresented as gold trading scheme.

How can this be? You may say there is a sales purchase agreement and gold transacted then how can this be money lending? If its money lending scheme then who is lending to who?

In this scheme, you are the lender. Genneva is the borrower. You bear the financial risk, in return Genneva pays you the monthly interest as we know it as Hibah. At the end of the loan contract, Genneva returns the money to you. During the contract, you keep the gold bar as your collateral if in the event Genneva fails to pay; you don’t loose the full amount lent to Genneva.

If the deal is purely buy & sell with no contractual obligation; then it is clear curlt trading because seller profits and buyer keep the goods. But if there is a contractual obligations for monthly interest & buy back then it is surely money lending, the gold serves as the collateral; the lender profits and the borrower bears the liability.

This issuance of collateral gold is somewhat similar to companies issuing bonds to raise fund from the public. Bonds are meticulously regulated by Securities Commission & Bank Negara because it has to be secured against the company assets such as properties and etc.

The problem with Genneva is that they are not regulated and when they have more buyers (lenders) they are actually increasing the liabilities of the company while profit is not realized yet.

For a typical trading company, the more customers; the more goods trade out, the more profits realized. Clear cut profit realization. For example RM 1 billion of gold sold would generate certain amount of profit based on the profit margin.

However Genneva’s scheme, the more gold sold the more liability it creates for the company because of the obligations to buy back and pay the monthly gift. Therefore Bank Negara had to step in to ensure things are in order and to prevent it to get out of control. A small complaint would suffice to fuel the urgency for drastic action.

It is harsh but neccesary.”
Genneva Gold Scam Explained!! : 1-million-dollar-blog

 

[Geeezz]

Thanks for the above info. Now i had some idea about the "trading" of gold in genneva

 

[stargazer008]

On the 1st of October 2012, Genneva Gold raided by both the authorities in Malaysia and Singapore for suspected offences including illegal deposit taking, money laundering, tax evasion and avoidance, false description (misrepresentations), appointment of agents without licence, and failing to lodge statutory documents.

It is harsh but neccesary.”
Genneva Gold Scam Explained!! : 1-million-dollar-blog

Thanks bro for the info. For some people who vested, this scheme is clear to them. To honour a monthly return of 2 - 3% to their customers, they will need to hit a return yield beyond this % to achieve their own profitability.

In spot gold trading or even stocks, yield above 2 - 3% is not difficult to achieve. This is why even the educated or investment savvy folks put in money to this gold scheme, as they believe the company has traders that hit beyond this %.

 

[eterna2]

Thanks bro for the info. For some people who vested, this scheme is clear to them. To honour a monthly return of 2 - 3% to their customers, they will need to hit a return yield beyond this % to achieve their own profitability.

In spot gold trading or even stocks, yield above 2 - 3% is not difficult to achieve. This is why even the educated or investment savvy folks put in money to this gold scheme, as they believe the company has traders that hit beyond this %.

I dunno about spot gold, but stock definitely dun have this level of CONSISTENT MONTHLY returns.

2~3% annually is easy, but 24% annually? Dun be ridiculous lah.

 

[PeacefulNemesis]

Status of Cases Investigated

 

[kumgongkia]

Thanks bro for the info. For some people who vested, this scheme is clear to them. To honour a monthly return of 2 - 3% to their customers, they will need to hit a return yield beyond this % to achieve their own profitability.

In spot gold trading or even stocks, yield above 2 - 3% is not difficult to achieve. This is why even the educated or investment savvy folks put in money to this gold scheme, as they believe the company has traders that hit beyond this %.

lol zhun bo? 2-3% a month? consistently?

 

[SuperHunk3488]

one of my older post!!

just like borrowing from loanshark!!!
Genneva is borrowing money from Loanshark (all the customers)
Agent are those middle man that introduce Loanshark to Genneva and get some comm out of it....

what is happening now is:
1) Genneva agreed to pay a monthly interest of 3% to Loanshark (customers) but they failed.....
2) Now more than 60% of genneva Loansharks is chasing them for 100% FULL payment... Do you think that will happened???
Just put yourself in their shoe... what will you do?
3) 3% also cannot pay.... how possible to pay 100%?
if genneva had collected $10,000.000 (10 millions) from all customers.
3% per month is $300,000.... yet they can't pay out....
how about the full $10,000.000???

and who will lend 10 millions for a company to pay off all debts?? hmm.....

GV still never give up!!! fooling all their die hard Agents to believe GV will be back and they will keep their promises... (those who still believe in them really "TEO 降头“)

look at my older post above tell their current situation... remember sunshine emprier... they said that too "they will be back!"