Property vs Leveraged REIT?

Toni90

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There’s a reason for that: the Straits Times Index of 30 Singapore listed stocks is very real estate heavy compared to other stock markets. When you’re buying ES3 or G3B (or the U.S. listed EWS for U.S. persons who want to overweight Singapore listed stocks — all 3 of you :D), you’re already investing in real estate in a major dollop.

I don’t think there’s any reason whatsoever to overweight real estate when investing, except for your own personal medium-term (or longer) occupancy. And there’s absolutely no danger in Singapore that you’ll be underweighted in real estate. Sometimes I wonder if there’s any business activity at all in Singapore that isn’t real estate or closely real estate-linked. ;)

Singapore is a real estate country. Market force.
 

pmstudent

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There’s a reason for that: the Straits Times Index of 30 Singapore listed stocks is very real estate heavy compared to other stock markets. When you’re buying ES3 or G3B (or the U.S. listed EWS for U.S. persons who want to overweight Singapore listed stocks — all 3 of you :D), you’re already investing in real estate in a major dollop.

I don’t think there’s any reason whatsoever to overweight real estate when investing, except for your own personal medium-term (or longer) occupancy. And there’s absolutely no danger in Singapore that you’ll be underweighted in real estate. Sometimes I wonder if there’s any business activity at all in Singapore that isn’t real estate or closely real estate-linked. ;)

BBCWatcher, ST, please take a look at S REIT performance :

https://fifthperson.com/top-10-singapore-reits-that-made-you-money-if-you-invested-from-their-ipo/

Those blue-chip reits are able to give you close to 10% CAGR.
Ascendas and Capitamall IPO in 2002 (17 years in running now), I don't have Bloomberg or Reuters at hand, but I am betting they performed better than STI since 2002.

UPDATE: ES3 happens to IPO at 2002 too, and their annualized return is 6.92% since inception
Source :
https://www.spdrs.com.sg/etf/fund/spdr-straits-times-index-etf-ES3.html
 
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SpeedingBullet

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Ok this is very interesting so I couldn't help myself. This is a comparison between (from top):

1. STI Index
2. FTSE Straits Times All-Shares Index
3. FTSE Singapore REIT Index

Time Period is from Jan 2005 - today.

The REIT index completely outshone the other two, double the returns (prolly due to dividends). Interesting it started outperforming via price too starting in 2012.

Capture5c94a98c41be93c2.jpg
 

pmstudent

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Ok this is very interesting so I couldn't help myself. This is a comparison between (from top):

1. STI Index
2. FTSE Straits Times All-Shares Index
3. FTSE Singapore REIT Index

Time Period is from Jan 2005 - today.

The REIT index completely outshone the other two, double the returns (prolly due to dividends). Interesting it started outperforming via price too starting in 2012.

Capture5c94a98c41be93c2.jpg

SB, thanks for proving my point with data.
 

soneat

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I adopt a balanced view but personally I prefer REITs.

1. Property - Not always good. E.g. For HDB, got to bear in mind the owner might not be able to get permission from HDB to rent out the flat at all, due to restrictions and quota. Currently there is a block quota and neighbourhood quota - once either of the limit is hit, rental will not be possible at all. This typically happens in estates such as Sengkang and Punggol where a lot of couples have upgraded to condo in other areas and want to rent out their HDB.

2. REITs - Not always good. Like buying a physical property, we need to choose the correct REITs as well. E.g. of Good REIT. Suntec...during IPO (in 2002?) was S$1, fall to around 50c during GFC and now back to around S$1.90. Along the way collected appx 8 to 10c a year so technically this is already free.
E.g. of Bad REIT - Allco, MacArthur (Long ago)....to recent times Sabana, LippoMalls, ....

Leveraged REITs basically just amplifies the "pros" and "cons" of the underlying REIT.
 

Toni90

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BBCWatcher, ST, please take a look at S REIT performance :

https://fifthperson.com/top-10-singapore-reits-that-made-you-money-if-you-invested-from-their-ipo/

Those blue-chip reits are able to give you close to 10% CAGR.
Ascendas and Capitamall IPO in 2002 (17 years in running now), I don't have Bloomberg or Reuters at hand, but I am betting they performed better than STI since 2002.

UPDATE: ES3 happens to IPO at 2002 too, and their annualized return is 6.92% since inception
Source :
https://www.spdrs.com.sg/etf/fund/spdr-straits-times-index-etf-ES3.html

U expect SREIT will deliver the same result in the next 15 years?
 

pmstudent

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U expect SREIT will deliver the same result in the next 15 years?

Look, as SpeedingBullet showed in Bloomberg chart, from the beginning until now, SREIT return is almost 2X of STI.

On what basis we think STI will outperform SREIT for the next 15 years ?

We can only rely on data, and 15-17 is the maximum timeline we can get.
 

SpeedingBullet

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U expect SREIT will deliver the same result in the next 15 years?

Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Look, as SpeedingBullet showed in Bloomberg chart, from the beginning until now, SREIT return is almost 2X of STI.

On what basis we think STI will outperform SREIT for the next 15 years ?

We can only rely on data, and 15-17 is the maximum timeline we can get.

Let me rerun my data to see if my STI's TRA is fully captured vis-a-vis FTSE ST REIT Index. Can't be too sure but I'm confident the results speak for itself.
 

pmstudent

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Unless you have good reason to believe otherwise, people would expect the trend to continue.
So you have any good reason to believe otherwise that SREIT will not deliver same result in next 15 years vs STI? :s13:
Percisely, the only available data (15 years) pointing shows that Sreit is more superior than STI, there is nothing suggesting otherwise.
 

Angry Bird

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i'm now 95% in shares, 5% in cash. and all shares are reit shares.

if reit outperforms sti for another 15yrs, it gives me that thinking of this country is heading for a shipwreck... :s22:
 

BBCWatcher

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Past performance is not indicative of future results.

There’s a huge gap between “crash” and “stagnate.”

For those of you running these comparisons, are you sure you’ve captured returns net of all costs? I believe there were/are some differential taxes involved here, at least over this time interval.
 

SpeedingBullet

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Past performance is not indicative of future results.

There’s a huge gap between “crash” and “stagnate.”

For those of you running these comparisons, are you sure you’ve captured returns net of all costs? I believe there were/are some differential taxes involved here, at least over this time interval.

It’s not easy to capture net returns, especially if there are taxes involved. So for a fair LFL comparison, everything will be gross total returns. On that basis, SREITs have outperformed STI over that specific time period

Has there been significant tax changes to SG corps over this time interval? As far as I know, cap gains and div taxes have been zero since Jesus. Any other frictional costs you think can be layered in? I’ll try and figure out how to layer it into my study
 

BBCWatcher

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It’s not easy to capture net returns, especially if there are taxes involved. So for a fair LFL comparison, everything will be gross total returns. On that basis, SREITs have outperformed STI over that specific time period
Just because it’s hard doesn’t mean you get to claim gross is a “fair” comparison. :D

Of course total returns net of all costs are what matter!

In the U.S. markets there are municipal bonds and bond funds, and those are (typically) U.S. federal income tax free. Other investments aren’t, by and large. Yes, it’s “hard” to make that comparison, but financial analyts do it and make the tax adjustments. It can be done.

Has there been significant tax changes to SG corps over this time interval? As far as I know, cap gains and div taxes have been zero since Jesus.
I think there’s been some personal income tax owed on REITs or REIT index funds at least over some of these comparison years. I’m raising the question, and it’s an important one.

Investors in competitive markets must be compensated for costs, including tax costs. That’s why U.S. municipal bonds have lower gross yields than other comparable risk bonds, because they’re U.S. tax favored. That doesn’t mean municipal bonds are “bad”; they’re just more tax efficient, and that calculation is important. The financial markets certainly take that factor into account.

Any other frictional costs you think can be layered in? I’ll try and figure out how to layer it into my study
Well, as another example, investing in the STI has been easy ever since the birth of STI index funds. (When was the first one born?) REIT index funds haven’t been around as long, so the only way you could buy a basket of REITs in Singapore is individually, with higher trading costs and dividend reinvesting costs, of course. That should be modeled, too. Is that hard? Yep, probably, but it’s necessary for a fair comparison.

Investors don’t buy the indexes directly; there are various cost-related filters through which they invest, including these.

One way you might be able to model this is to take ES3 (that one is easy and has been around a while) and compare it to an actual SREIT index fund. You won’t be able to run that comparison across all the comparison years you might want, but you might be able to extrapolate the tracking errors (from the indices) backward in time to some base date, before these index funds were born. Still a little difficult, but conceptually it should be possible. Then add the tax effects on top of those curves, also difficult but possible.

I’m pretty sure these fair adjustments are going to make the REITs look less attractive than they seem in the gross/index figures, because of higher fund costs and (I suspect) higher taxes, at least historically.

If we didn’t take taxes into account, then nobody would ever invest in Irish-domiciled ETFs. Everybody would run to Wall Street for the much better U.S. listed ETFs — lower management fees, tighter bid-ask spreads, etc. — and buy those. But there is a difference between 15% dividend tax withholding (paid by the fund) and 30% dividend tax withholding (paid by you), except for such things as (icky) gold funds. These details matter.
 

pmstudent

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I think there’s been some personal income tax owed on REITs or REIT index funds at least over some of these comparison years. I’m raising the question, and it’s an important one.

Hi BBC, there is no tax on the REIT level and investor level.
SREIT is being structured as a tax free vehicle, but they have to payout 90% of net earning.
For investor, you pay zero tax for the dividends too, isn't it applicable for all other equity ?
I have personally never paid any tax for all the dividends that I have collected over the years.

There isn't many that SREIT here, it is quite easy to construct your own "ETF", by buying all the Mapletree, Capitaland, Ascendas and Fraser (about 12), and hold for the long term. It is much more cheaper than ETF where it incurs a expense ratio.

As for dividend re-invest, choose SCRIP (dividend reinvest) if the REIT offer it, otherwise you batch the dividend to 4K, and re-invest with $10 brokerage fee (SCB).
 
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bright_84

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Hi BBC, there is no tax on the REIT level and investor level.
SREIT is being structured as a tax free vehicle, but they have to payout 90% of net earning.
For investor, you pay zero tax for the dividends too, isn't it applicable for all other equity ?
I have personally never paid any tax for all the dividends that I have collected over the years.

Singapore REITs are tax transparent under s43.
Income from REITs to individuals are tax exempt under s13.

On the other hand, property rental is taxable under s10.

I think at least in SGP REITs are extremely tax efficient.
 

Dividends Warrior

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Ok this is very interesting so I couldn't help myself. This is a comparison between (from top):

1. STI Index
2. FTSE Straits Times All-Shares Index
3. FTSE Singapore REIT Index

Time Period is from Jan 2005 - today.

The REIT index completely outshone the other two, double the returns (prolly due to dividends). Interesting it started outperforming via price too starting in 2012.

Capture5c94a98c41be93c2.jpg

Thanks! Power of CD! :s12:
Can I quote your data on my blog? :D
 

SpeedingBullet

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Just because it’s hard doesn’t mean you get to claim gross is a “fair” comparison. :D

Of course total returns net of all costs are what matter!

In the U.S. markets there are municipal bonds and bond funds, and those are (typically) U.S. federal income tax free. Other investments aren’t, by and large. Yes, it’s “hard” to make that comparison, but financial analyts do it and make the tax adjustments. It can be done.
Do you have the deets on what those analysts use? Or a recent study I can refer to? I don't think there's enough data out there, even with my BBG machine next to me to run a meaningful net TRA. I'd be happy to run the simulation again if you could provide some good info to strip out to get close to a net return.

So my "gross is fair" statement is simply due to info availability and SG's status of having tax-free investing policies in place. If not, what other info would we be using for a quick comparison but just assumptions not backed up by hard data? I can't find any other Singapore-focused REITs vs STI study done out there, and I highly doubt Yahoo/Google Finance can produce a result close to this.

I'd be glad to run a net TRA scenario, would need the parameters (BBG-friendly format please). This will be very interesting to forumers here. I see the interest growing :s22:

I think there’s been some personal income tax owed on REITs or REIT index funds at least over some of these comparison years. I’m raising the question, and it’s an important one.

Investors in competitive markets must be compensated for costs, including tax costs. That’s why U.S. municipal bonds have lower gross yields than other comparable risk bonds, because they’re U.S. tax favored. That doesn’t mean municipal bonds are “bad”; they’re just more tax efficient, and that calculation is important. The financial markets certainly take that factor into account.
In Singapore's context, I think the difference isn't as significant vis-a-vis tax-free muni bonds vs normal vanilla US bonds.


Well, as another example, investing in the STI has been easy ever since the birth of STI index funds. (When was the first one born?) REIT index funds haven’t been around as long, so the only way you could buy a basket of REITs in Singapore is individually, with higher trading costs and dividend reinvesting costs, of course. That should be modeled, too. Is that hard? Yep, probably, but it’s necessary for a fair comparison.

Investors don’t buy the indexes directly; there are various cost-related filters through which they invest, including these.

One way you might be able to model this is to take ES3 (that one is easy and has been around a while) and compare it to an actual SREIT index fund. You won’t be able to run that comparison across all the comparison years you might want, but you might be able to extrapolate the tracking errors (from the indices) backward in time to some base date, before these index funds were born. Still a little difficult, but conceptually it should be possible. Then add the tax effects on top of those curves, also difficult but possible.

I’m pretty sure these fair adjustments are going to make the REITs look less attractive than they seem in the gross/index figures, because of higher fund costs and (I suspect) higher taxes, at least historically.

If we didn’t take taxes into account, then nobody would ever invest in Irish-domiciled ETFs. Everybody would run to Wall Street for the much better U.S. listed ETFs — lower management fees, tighter bid-ask spreads, etc. — and buy those. But there is a difference between 15% dividend tax withholding (paid by the fund) and 30% dividend tax withholding (paid by you), except for such things as (icky) gold funds. These details matter.
Ok that sounds fair, is there an actual SREIT index fund out there? I know there's one by PhillipCapital or soemthing but it is fairly recent, dont think i can pull meaningful info. Fund vs Fund would be a pretty fair LFL comparison because Fund expenses are netted off anyway, as are certain tax considerations at the Fund level.

Which goes back to my original study of just plain index vs index - both non-listed nor tradeable, no fees nor taxes involved. Pure price and divvies at a gross level.

Tax impact shouldn't be too significant since this is Singapore. Your comparison of muni bonds vs vanilla US bonds, Irish-ETFs vs vanilla US ETFs relative to SREITS vs STI may be a little extreme, since the tax hit is significantly larger. 0% vs 30% withholding for the former, 15% vs 30% for the latter. Relative to low or close to 0% vs 0% for Singapore or maybe something small but not as large as the US examples.

Again, do let me know if there are meaningful parameters I can add into my study, I'll gladly run the numbers for ya.

Thanks! Power of CD! :s12:
Can I quote your data on my blog? :D

Sure lol.
 
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