Proposal Ring - Part 2

[pinkpink86]

Which is better? AGS or GIA certified diamonds?

 

[Grizz.P]

Which is better? AGS or GIA certified diamonds?

Either one can be better pending on the scope analysis

 

[DawnMin]

Shouldn't be an issue with brilliance, although for lower pavilion angles i would recommend a higher table size if possible. 40.6 pavilion with a 56 or 55 table would be nice, but i don't really foresee too much issue here

The stars and lower half combination will affect the contrast pattern. Shorter lower half means thicker arrows, higher stars means bigger hotspots. Although unlikely, due to rounding of about +- 2, if the stars are high (57) and arrows low (73) there is a possibility that there MIGHT be too many dark areas at once. Although if the jeweler dares to tell you that this is super ideal, i would think that it is also possibly something nice like 53/77 which would be pretty nice.

As you can see, due to rounding, some information you can only guess, but if you are getting the scope images, all will be revealed and theres no need to guess. lol

how is it a possibility there might be too dark areas at once? I think you're confused how lowers and stars affects contrst

 

[elnos86]

Food for thought about diamond table sizes..

Can see how the light ray adjust with different table sizes..

Paul Hung: A Diamond’s Table Size

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

how is it a possibility there might be too dark areas at once? I think you're confused how lowers and stars affects contrst

Quiet possibly Hahaha.

From what I understand, the minor facets affect fire, and fire normally comes at the cost of brilliance hence the contrast. By having larger hotspots such as the blacks under the star or the fatter arrows the diamond will naturally tend to be darker due to a larger amount of darker area compared to the entire face up area of the diamond. From my viewing experience, fatter arrows are normally immediately obvious, and larger star are normally only obvious at 60% and above. In this circumstances i would guess that the combination i mentioned (57 star/73 lower half + 54 table, all leaning towards fire) will probably work to make the diamond darker under normal circumstances. That said, it would produce better fire but it seems not many people here are looking for fire and most want brighter. But like i said, the ASET would probably provide a more accurate information of the numbers rather then guessing the worst case/best case scenarios as the number range is pretty very wide.

If my explanation is wrong, please feel free to correct me so that we can all learn together.

BTW, i love your site/blog "The Diamond Dictionary" and i believe everyone should read it as a good place to get information.

Food for thought about diamond table sizes..

Can see how the light ray adjust with different table sizes..

Paul Hung: A Diamond’s Table Size

Great post, saw it but forgot about it ! hahaha ! Explains it better then i ever could. Thanks for sharing

 

[DawnMin]

the contrast in the stars can only be as much as the lower girdle length

smaller lowers do produce fatter arrows, but also less contrast in the stars and at the shafts

the diamond would not appear darker if you consider overall contrast

example:

fat arrows, smaller lower: ||| ||| |||
thinner arrows, larger lower: ||:||:||

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

the contrast in the stars can only be as much as the lower girdle length

smaller lowers do produce fatter arrows, but also less contrast in the stars and at the shafts

the diamond would not appear darker if you consider overall contrast

example:

fat arrows, smaller lower: ||| ||| |||
thinner arrows, larger lower: ||:||:||

Ah ic ! You're saying its mutually exclusive due to the way the virtual facets are produced. That makes sense. Hahaha. So the situation 73 Lower 57 star rather then producing fat arrows larger lower will instead produce fat arrows smaller lower as per your first example, and the amount of over all contrast will always be the same no matter the lower girdle/star ? Thanks for the explanation

1 more question when the arrows are fatter, maintaining the same amount (in terms of area) of contrast, would it be more concentrated around the center making the center seem darker ?

In addition, it seems to me that the increase in arrow size seems to create a larger amount of contrasted area then the decrease in contrasted areas caused by the decrease in the stars as can be seen from the images below... might just be a visual illusion though...

55% stars / 73% lower girdles

55% stars / 81% lower girdles

Images from Good Old Gold
Original article at :
Minor Facets - GoodOldGold.com

 

[limited]

WAH!! I finally went thru 1 gazillion pages of diamonds!! From part 1 until here!
I think it took me something like 1 solid month for a few hours to go through EVERYTHING!
I have to say that it's quite satisfying going through everything and seeing so many bros/sis so helpful to others along the way!

=] I can also safely say after spending some time and going thru everything I'm not a noob anymore! haha

Ah ic ! You're saying its mutually exclusive due to the way the virtual facets are produced. That makes sense. Hahaha. So the situation 73 Lower 57 star rather then producing fat arrows larger lower will instead produce fat arrows smaller lower as per your first example, and the amount of over all contrast will always be the same no matter the lower girdle/star ? Thanks for the explanation

1 more question when the arrows are fatter, maintaining the same amount (in terms of area) of contrast, would it be more concentrated around the center making the center seem darker ?

In addition, it seems to me that the increase in arrow size seems to create a larger amount of contrasted area then the decrease in contrasted areas caused by the decrease in the stars as can be seen from the images below... might just be a visual illusion though...

55% stars / 73% lower girdles

55% stars / 81% lower girdles

Images from Good Old Gold
Original article at :
Minor Facets - GoodOldGold.com

I think the contrast in the arrows is a resultant of light reflection from the light ahead. So if you want a clear "arrow contrast" you just need to block sufficient light from right on top of the diamond. This will cease the reflection of light from the bottom pavilion. Unlike the rest of the other facets, still taking in light from other angles.

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

WAH!! I finally went thru 1 gazillion pages of diamonds!! From part 1 until here!
I think it took me something like 1 solid month for a few hours to go through EVERYTHING!
I have to say that it's quite satisfying going through everything and seeing so many bros/sis so helpful to others along the way!

=] I can also safely say after spending some time and going thru everything I'm not a noob anymore! haha




I think the contrast in the arrows is a resultant of light reflection from the light ahead. So if you want a clear "arrow contrast" you just need to block sufficient light from right on top of the diamond. This will cease the reflection of light from the bottom pavilion. Unlike the rest of the other facets, still taking in light from other angles.

Congrats bro! Going diamond hunting soon? Hahaha!

Definitly a non noobish answer! What you said is correct and to see the arrows you generally need to block the light from directly on top. In this case, with less direct light exiting, and fire tending to be surrounding colors and not white, I thought that given what I felt was a larger contrast area the diamond might seem less brilliant. even given the area was the same, and the larger area is just an optical illusion, it seems pretty much clustered around the center, and might once again affect the brilliance in the center. What do you feel?

 

[limited]

haha! well can always start early to look see look see. =] I think this is where the quality of the cut comes in. If the master diamond cutter manages the facets well enough, there will be a nice 40.8 ish degree on the Bottom Pavilion. which leaves only so much area for the reflections. In my opinion, if the arrows are too 'fat' then it prob means that the depth may be too shallow.

Well bro, not everyone will get to view the diamond from the top. (probably twice, once when you propose, the other when you look at the diamond on her hand hahaha)
I think the larger the arrows it may even help with the scintillation from side lights. In real life, light doesnt just come in from the top pavilion. So I wouldn't be too bothered with the size of the arrows, unless you personally prefer 'thinner' arrows. =]

My 2 cents

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

haha! well can always start early to look see look see. =] I think this is where the quality of the cut comes in. If the master diamond cutter manages the facets well enough, there will be a nice 40.8 ish degree on the Bottom Pavilion. which leaves only so much area for the reflections. In my opinion, if the arrows are too 'fat' then it prob means that the depth may be too shallow.

Well bro, not everyone will get to view the diamond from the top. (probably twice, once when you propose, the other when you look at the diamond on her hand hahaha)
I think the larger the arrows it may even help with the scintillation from side lights. In real life, light doesnt just come in from the top pavilion. So I wouldn't be too bothered with the size of the arrows, unless you personally prefer 'thinner' arrows. =]

My 2 cents

The bro's diamond in question has a pavilion angle of 40.6 and we were mainly discussing the effect of the stars and lower halfs

True la, but its mainly for deliberate viewing i guess. When people view, whether ownsself see. Show their friend or comparing they normally do so from the top. hahaha. I don't think many people purposely show off scintillation... But yep, it will help scintillation, although probably not from side lights. And yeah, i do agree that the arrow thickness is also down to preference, although also got to consider the implications of that preference as its not simply arrow size.

With round brilliants however, most light you see from the crown DOES come in from the top. Thats the way it was designed. The only way significant light can come in from the side or bottom and exit the top is if there is leakage, otherwise its pretty minor.

I think those idealscope and aset scope mainly considers light entering from the top, The colors represent light EXITING the crown at an angle, not entering. Refer to the JP Video that was just posted to see the path of the light. Imagine the diamond is in a tube (the IS/ASET scope) and the light ray makes an additional bounce off the inside of the tube and into your eyes. The different portions of the scope are different colors which is why you see the image ASET image as you see it, with different colors, depending on the angle of exit of the light ray.

 

[collomack]

Hi, may I ask how much were you quoted for your diamond?

Hi bro sadistical, was quoted S$50xx for the stone excluding settings.. I'm not really sure if this is considered on the high side for a 0.61 F VS2 though.

On a side note I understand from JP that diamond prices are slightly higher now due to the strengthening USD

 

[limited]

The bro's diamond in question has a pavilion angle of 40.6 and we were mainly discussing the effect of the stars and lower halfs

True la, but its mainly for deliberate viewing i guess. When people view, whether ownsself see. Show their friend or comparing they normally do so from the top. hahaha. I don't think many people purposely show off scintillation... But yep, it will help scintillation, although probably not from side lights. And yeah, i do agree that the arrow thickness is also down to preference, although also got to consider the implications of that preference as its not simply arrow size.

With round brilliants however, most light you see from the crown DOES come in from the top. Thats the way it was designed. The only way significant light can come in from the side or bottom and exit the top is if there is leakage, otherwise its pretty minor.

I think those idealscope and aset scope mainly considers light entering from the top, The colors represent light EXITING the crown at an angle, not entering. Refer to the JP Video that was just posted to see the path of the light. Imagine the diamond is in a tube (the IS/ASET scope) and the light ray makes an additional bounce off the inside of the tube and into your eyes. The different portions of the scope are different colors which is why you see the image ASET image as you see it, with different colors, depending on the angle of exit of the light ray.

I might be wrong but i think the ASET scope functions the other way. its what angle the light enter's the diamond. the reflection comes from the light source below bouncing off the ASET scope and into the diamond which reflects upwards towards the eye. Therefore, the aset scope shows how the eye view the reflected light from the diamond using coloured bands.

Like you pointed out the brilliant round primarily reflects light internally from light received from the top. Therefore a full RED aset scope would means 100% light reflected from the top. e.g the solasfera.
Lol too technical. lol. Probably need to do more readings haha

Anyway sorry about the discussion of the 40.6 hahah! totally out of point there. haha

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

I might be wrong but i think the ASET scope functions the other way. its what angle the light enter's the diamond. the reflection comes from the light source below bouncing off the ASET scope and into the diamond which reflects upwards towards the eye. Therefore, the aset scope shows how the eye view the reflected light from the diamond using coloured bands.

Like you pointed out the brilliant round primarily reflects light internally from light received from the top. Therefore a full RED aset scope would means 100% light reflected from the top. e.g the solasfera.
Lol too technical. lol. Probably need to do more readings haha

Anyway sorry about the discussion of the 40.6 hahah! totally out of point there. haha

You are of course... correct ! Ooops! Pardon my Noobishness Old liao memory all gone. Thanks for the refresher! hahahaha.

No la, not out off point. Just mentioning that the bro's diamond pav is 40.6 as he provided the info If you have more insights about how the diamond might look or its characteristic, nows a good time to guess before he reveals the scope images. Hahaha. Can test ourselves. Lol. More fun then just reading and reading. hahaha. Normally bros just post the scope images then just need to interpret, but sometimes when no access to scope images this sort of info helps.

 

[S1rius]

Hey guys. I just tried using the HCA calculator & got a score of 0.7, am I right on it?

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Hey guys. I just tried using the HCA calculator & got a score of 0.7, am I right on it?

Yep, i got 0.7 too.

 

[S1rius]

Yep, i got 0.7 too.

Cool, ty. Sorry, am a total noob on this. Been going thru the pages & relevant website. Bluenile quoted a price of $3261 SGD. Can you or anyone advise me whether is it a good buy?

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Cool, ty. Sorry, am a total noob on this. Been going thru the pages & relevant website. Bluenile quoted a price of $3261 SGD. Can you or anyone advise me whether is it a good buy?

This is from the Blue Nile Signature line so you have access to the GCAL report. Can see the hearts and arrows image from there. I uploaded it here. From the image can see that you can see hearts but it is no where near super ideal, or even ideal. The numbers are good so it will at least be a good performer even if not the best.

Price wise, lets take super ideal, based on previous bro's prices from JP of 2.7k for 0.45 E VS2 (Probably slightly higher now due to USD ?) and 5k for 0.61ct, i think from JP, even a 0.51 F VS2 will already cost 3.8k to 4.0k. Yours is a VVS2 and its cheaper. The cut is definitely decent even good, but of course it won't be anywhere near the best of the best. Whether the layman can really see a difference or not is debatable.

You will also be billed for an additional about $230 in GST making the final price about $3500. Total savings of versus a JP 0.51 F VS2 Super Ideal would be about $300 - 500. If want to compare with a JP 0.51 F VVS2, i would say savings would be even higher.

I think it depends on if you want the high clarity. If you don't need it, i think go down to vs2 (usually should not be able to see the diff between a VS2 and vvs2 without a loupe), get local like JP might be better. Cos can get settings and diamond together which tends to be cheaper. I think JP charges about $500 for setting if you get diamond with them and $800 if you do not. There are of course cheaper setting alternatives like those chinese gold smiths, but i have no experience with them and personally don't feel safe, if you have a cheaper setting alternative like other private jewellers, then you can factor that in to calculate your final savings. If get locally also settles the after sales service like resizing and polishing, cleaning etc.

Just my $0.02

Also note that as it is from the signature line, it also has the word name and logo "Bluenile" laser engraved on it. Hahaha. Depends on whether you are ok with that but I personally don't like it.

 

[S1rius]

This is from the Blue Nile Signature line so you have access to the GCAL report. Can see the hearts and arrows image from there. I uploaded it here. From the image can see that you can see hearts but it is no where near super ideal, or even ideal. The numbers are good so it will at least be a good performer even if not the best.

Price wise, lets take super ideal, based on previous bro's prices from JP of 2.7k for 0.45 E VS2 (Probably slightly higher now due to USD ?) and 5k for 0.61ct, i think from JP, even a 0.51 F VS2 will already cost 3.8k to 4.0k. Yours is a VVS2 and its cheaper. The cut is definitely decent even good, but of course it won't be anywhere near the best of the best. Whether the layman can really see a difference or not is debatable.

You will also be billed for an additional about $230 in GST making the final price about $3500. Total savings of versus a JP 0.51 F VS2 Super Ideal would be about $300 - 500. If want to compare with a JP 0.51 F VVS2, i would say savings would be even higher.

I think it depends on if you want the high clarity. If you don't need it, i think go down to vs2 (usually should not be able to see the diff between a VS2 and vvs2 without a loupe), get local like JP might be better. Cos can get settings and diamond together which tends to be cheaper. I think JP charges about $500 for setting if you get diamond with them and $800 if you do not. There are of course cheaper setting alternatives like those chinese gold smiths, but i have no experience with them and personally don't feel safe, if you have a cheaper setting alternative like other private jewellers, then you can factor that in to calculate your final savings. If get locally also settles the after sales service like resizing and polishing, cleaning etc.

Just my $0.02

Also note that as it is from the signature line, it also has the word name and logo "Bluenile" laser engraved on it. Hahaha. Depends on whether you are ok with that but I personally don't like it.

Appreciate the info & advice given. Meeting with JP next wednesday!

 

[EricMagnusLensherr]

Appreciate the info & advice given. Meeting with JP next wednesday!

No problem ! Please feel free to post back with the results of the meeting