Prudential Pruflexicash

Lewis.T · Oct 20, 2015

mrclubbie said:
Please provide that sample of benefit illustration with OPTION 3 -- ACCUMULATED CASHBACK

http://imgur.com/7w6wJb1

I believe I can't post it up in full, so just to be on the safe side..

Shion · Oct 20, 2015

Lewis.T said:
I believe I can't post it up in full, so just to be on the safe side..

Cashback received = Guaranteed Sum
Maturity value = Non-Guaranteed Sum

The way you phrase is also questionable.

Your 24k that cannot be withdrawn will not grow to 35k as long as you activate your cashback. You can even see yourself merely "getting abit more than your total premiums paid".

That is why many people already said, never ever activate your cashback.

What you have mentioned is the "best case scenario" which is unlikely to happen.

If that is the case, doesn't it sound more logical if we park our money inside the bank account ?

Lewis.T · Oct 20, 2015

mrclubbie said:
Cashback received = Guaranteed Sum
Maturity value = Non-Guaranteed Sum

The way you phrase is also questionable.

Your 24k that cannot be withdrawn will not grow to 35k as long as you activate your cashback. You can even see yourself merely "getting abit more than your total premiums paid".

That is why many people already said, never ever activate your cashback.

What you have mentioned is the "best case scenario" which is unlikely to happen.

If that is the case, doesn't it sound more logical if we park our money inside the bank account ?

Erm, I don't quite get you. The total cashback is 36k, leaving the premiums of 24k 'untouchable'. If it doesn't grow you'll only get 24k at the end which isn't true.

Also it isn't the best case scenario. Prudential has been giving above the projected values for certain years, and current regular premium life funds are performing at 5.2% for the past decade.

Edit: Ok, I think I am beginning to understand your confusion. The plan, whatever is in it, will grow with the funds. If you take out the cashback, the cashback portion cannot grow because it is no longer with us, but the remaining amounts that is inside will still continue to grow. (layman terms)

Shion · Oct 20, 2015

Lewis.T said:
Erm, I don't quite get you. The total cashback is 36k, leaving the premiums of 24k 'untouchable'. If it doesn't grow you'll only get 24k at the end which isn't true.

Also it isn't the best case scenario. Prudential has been giving above the projected values for certain years, and current regular premium life funds are performing at 5.2% for the past decade.

Edit: Ok, I think I am beginning to understand your confusion. The plan, whatever is in it, will grow with the funds. If you take out the cashback, the cashback portion cannot grow because it is no longer with us, but the remaining amounts that is inside will still continue to grow. (layman terms)

Of course I know the cashback portion will not grow if you request for multiple cashbacks along the way, but what has happened to the $24,000 which is "supposed" to generate $35,000 ? It will also decrease along the way.

In the 1st place, the total amount at maturity (guaranteed + non-guaranteed, don't care what amount) is already not going to beat the long term inflation. You keep on request for cashback is going to harm your returns further.

Why must the cashback be guaranteed and not the $24,000 component ? I think the answer is very clear, because of the term insurance portion which is totally useless in my opinion.

After 3 pages I don't think you really understand what is my problem. My problem is, this plan has been sold as a "pure savings" and not "savings + term insurance" and agents are open their big eyes and telling people this is a "pure savings".

Is this what Prudential has taught agents ? Everything also "savings plan" ? PruFlexiCash Protection Plus the policy printed, not even in fine prints, that it is not a savings account and yet I see agents telling me this is a savings account.

What do you think ?

Lewis.T · Oct 20, 2015

mrclubbie said:
Of course I know the cashback portion will not grow if you request for multiple cashbacks along the way, but what has happened to the $24,000 which is "supposed" to generate $35,000 ? It will also decrease along the way.

No. You keep missing the part where I tell you it will continue to grow.

In the 1st place, the total amount at maturity (guaranteed + non-guaranteed, don't care what amount) is already not going to beat the long term inflation. You keep on request for cashback is going to harm your returns further.

So why suggest putting it in the bank which is potentially worse for inflation? Take note I'm not saying bank funds are bad. I'm just talking from an inflation standpoint.

Inflation Rate in Singapore averaged 2.74 percent from 1962 until 2015. I don't know if you thought it was 5% or something but here you go.

Why ? Why must the cashback be guaranteed and not the $24,000 component ? I think the answer is very clear, because of the term insurance portion which is totally useless in my opinion.

I think you may be jumping to conclusions here, even I can't answer your question. Try the actuaries or marketing department.

After 3 pages I don't think you really understand what is my problem. My problem is, this plan has been sold as a "pure savings" and not "savings + term insurance" and agents are open their big eyes and tell me this is a "pure savings". Is this what Prudential has taught agents ? Everything also "savings plan" ?

Ok, the problem is if you want a 'savings plan' that gives you a capital guarantee, make sure you get one. If you were too trusting of your agent and didn't go through the B.I I can't help you.

As much as possible I don't want to be confrontational but this is getting borderline absurd..

Edit: One last time, I'm going to try and show you what happens.

Accumulate cashback option.
You accumulate your cashback at the prevailing interest, and it grows.
The premium that is not your cashback also grows to become 'x'.

Cashback every year option from when it's available.
You withdraw your guaranteed cashback and there is nothing to grow here.
The premium that is not your cashback grows to become the same 'x' as above.

There is no decrease in the x, but the total growth is slightly lesser because of the cashback not earning interest. Overall between your withdrawals and premiums and growth, there is still money to be made - unless Pru funds goes to hell year on year for every year until your policy is over and then your policy goes down with it.

Perisher · Oct 20, 2015

Will leave you 2 to discuss. Chill hor... If anything can let me know.

Shion · Oct 20, 2015

Lewis.T said:
No. You keep missing the part where I tell you it will continue to grow.

I did not say it will not grow. Which part did I say the money won't grow ?

Lewis.T said:
So why suggest putting it in the bank which is potentially worse for inflation? Take note I'm not saying bank funds are bad. I'm just talking from an inflation standpoint.

Inflation Rate in Singapore averaged 2.74 percent from 1962 until 2015. I don't know if you thought it was 5% or something but here you go.

I am not refuting this point. If you really think that it is possible, then I have nothing to say.

I think you appear to have missed out my point.

Putting money inside a bank has a lot more liquidity than having your money locked in this "savings plan". Why should I even pay, knowing that part of my money is the distribution costs and agents commission and also for the term insurance portion ?

Lewis.T said:
I think you may be jumping to conclusions here, even I can't answer your question. Try the actuaries or marketing department.

Let me quote what I have said...

"Why ? Why must the cashback be guaranteed and not the $24,000 component ? I think the answer is very clear, because of the term insurance portion which is totally useless in my opinion. "

My idea is not about the amount, my idea is that the money is also being used to fund for the term insurance portion which I think it is pointless.

Lewis.T said:
Edit: One last time, I'm going to try and show you what happens.

Accumulate cashback option.
You accumulate your cashback at the prevailing interest, and it grows.
The premium that is not your cashback also grows to become 'x'.

Cashback every year option from when it's available.
You withdraw your guaranteed cashback and there is nothing to grow here.
The premium that is not your cashback grows to become the same 'x' as above.

There is no decrease in the x, but the total growth is slightly lesser because of the cashback not earning interest. Overall between your withdrawals and premiums and growth, there is still money to be made - unless Pru funds goes to hell year on year for every year until your policy is over and then your policy goes down with it.

Accumulate cashback option.
You accumulate your cashback at the prevailing interest, and it grows.
The premium that is not your cashback also grows to become 'x'.
This amount 'x' consists of the interest earned from the cashback that is not withdrawn.

Cashback every year option from when it's available.
You withdraw your guaranteed cashback and there is nothing to grow here.
The premium that is not your cashback grows but will not reach an amount the same as 'x" from above.

There is a decrease in the 'x' since the total growth is slightly lesser as the cashback is not earning interest. Any interest earned is under "non-guaranteed" portion, which your "non-cashback" amount is supposed to be in, for the case of PruFlexiCash.

Your guaranteed sum will maintain the portion of the cashback. So how is it possible that there will not be a decrease in 'x' despite lower accumulated cashback...

I, mrclubbie, did not ever claim that you will never earn money from this PruFlexiCash.

Lewis.T said:
Ok, the problem is if you want a 'savings plan' that gives you a capital guarantee, make sure you get one. If you were too trusting of your agent and didn't go through the B.I I can't help you.

As much as possible I don't want to be confrontational but this is getting borderline absurd..

You still do not get the problem after 3 pages.

Another member, havetheveryfun, has already answered for me at post #23.

You have effectively dodged away the fact that this is a "savings + term insurance".

I have mentioned at least twice in this thread about the marketing of this policy, how Prudential should wake up their idea, how Prudential is teaching their agents, how the agents are selling this product. All these concerns, you effectively dodged it as well.

It simply continues to convince and proves me right about what type of insurance company Prudential is.

And lastly, to repeat myself with added more details

I, mrclubbie, has never mentioned a single letter, or character, or punctuation, nor did I ever claim that you will never earn money from this PruFlexiCash

Shion · Oct 20, 2015

Perisher said:
Will leave you 2 to discuss. Chill hor... If anything can let me know.

I will be more than happy if someone else other than Mr Lewis.T comes in and refute me.

Really, if anyone here disagrees with me, please kindly refute until I am being silenced.

No, this is not a challenge. With more discussions and debates, we will learn more and understand better.

Perisher · Oct 20, 2015

mrclubbie said:
I will be more than happy if someone else other than Mr Lewis.T comes in and refute me.

Really, if anyone here disagrees with me, please kindly refute until I am being silenced.

No, this is not a challenge. With more discussions and debates, we will learn more and understand better.

If it's peaceful debate it's fine.
But it doesn't seem like it with your first sentence.
Don't get too personal. Thank.

Shion · Oct 20, 2015

mrclubbie said:
Anyway, this is not the 1st time someone casts doubts on PruFlexiCash.

Perhaps the number of doubts from this forum is too little to be significant, yet on the other hand one can wonder about why this particular plan is a somewhat common topic after ILPs.

Too many people bought this plan and end up having more qns in their mind years later ?

A problem with clients ?
A problem with agents ?
A problem with Pru ?
A problem with policy ?

You make your judgement.

Lewis.T said:
Probably because we were the first to start with the anticipated endowment idea, and that our plan has been in the market for quite awhile. Just my guess, I may not be correct.

Shion · Oct 20, 2015

Perisher said:
If it's peaceful debate it's fine.
But it doesn't seem like it with your first sentence.
Don't get too personal. Thank.

Its ok, I have made a 360-degree u-turn and decided to abandon this thread.

I have said what I needed to say.

I have nothing to add on from here on.

Perisher · Oct 20, 2015

mrclubbie said:
Your guess is not invalid. However, I am firmly believed that many people bought this plan thinking it is "pure savings" which is not the case (and you acknowledged this somewhere in this thread that this is "anticipated endowment")

The way how Prudential markets this policy is a question mark.

Other than ILPs, term and whole life, this one particular policy is a pretty "hot" topic

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/help-flexicash-5204464.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/want-cancel-my-ilp-5175595.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/help-pruflexicash-policy-4188476.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/need-advices-pruflexicash-3992483.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/anyone-bought-prudential-pruflexicash-3459526.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/need-some-advice-pruflexicash-4509632.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/pruflexicash-vs-prusave-4428847.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/m...sh-protection-plus-should-cancel-5013192.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/anyone-sign-up-pruflexicash-2681770.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/help-pruflexicash-plan-5037388.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/guys-nid-advise-2599346.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/advise-needed-2607250.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/anyone-here-signed-up-following-3194739.html

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/any-prudential-agent-experienced-here-5078913.html

This product is misrepresented quite badly... :s22:

Asphodeli · Oct 21, 2015

I hate siding with agents, but did anyone even read the print in the box before signing?

The summary clearly states the terms of this policy as well.

spiritGate · Oct 21, 2015

Asphodeli said:
I hate siding with agents, but did anyone even read the print in the box before signing?

The summary clearly states the terms of this policy as well.

Sad to say no, if u go to those roadshow, the agent will just go to the portion which requires signing and ask u to just sign. I saw many of such cases happening. If you think about it, those older generation or ppl who do notbknow english, they will trust the financial agent and just sign since they package it this way

Sent from sent from gagt using GAGT

Tooi Kono Machi De · Oct 21, 2015

spiritGate said:
Sad to say no, if u go to those roadshow, the agent will just go to the portion which requires signing and ask u to just sign. I saw many of such cases happening. If you think about it, those older generation or ppl who do notbknow english, they will trust the financial agent and just sign since they package it this way

Sent from sent from gagt using GAGT

This I agree. They will skip thr middle pages and claims its not important. Jump straight to the BI.

bibu00 · Oct 21, 2015

The bottom line to this plan is still simple.
Don't buy it.
If you are a Singaporean male who needs insurance and don't want to do too much homework, stick to SAF AVIVA GTL.
if you want to invest and get good returns and don't want homework, SSB or invest savers.even ocbc360 if you fit their requirements.

There is no "savings" in pruflexicash (since guaranteed<premium paid). And the insurance premium and distribution fee is ridiculous.

There is no situation where pruflexicash will be necessary for anyone, insurance, savers, investors. It's just combining the worse of this 3 and packaging them into a plan that agents can sell.

P.s. I'm a victim of this plan too. $400/month for 15 yrs.

Shion · Oct 21, 2015

Ok never mind, I make a u-turn to reply.

This will be my standard reply for all the future PruFlexiCash threads

I don't want to hear anymore complaints on PruFlexiCash. You as a client don't want to go through the policy, or lack in the financial knowledge of this plan, it is your fault. Don't blame it on Pru agents who tells you this is a "savings plan".

At the end of the day, you can choose to sign or not to sign.

All in all, forever is clients fault.

In the past, other forums also used to have topics on this particular policy. How come this policy is so "special" ?

Shion · Oct 21, 2015

bibu00 said:
The bottom line to this plan is still simple.
Don't buy it.
If you are a Singaporean male who needs insurance and don't want to do too much homework, stick to SAF AVIVA GTL.
if you want to invest and get good returns and don't want homework, SSB or invest savers.even ocbc360 if you fit their requirements.

There is no "savings" in pruflexicash (since guaranteed<premium paid). And the insurance premium and distribution fee is ridiculous.

There is no situation where pruflexicash will be necessary for anyone, insurance, savers, investors. It's just combining the worse of this 3 and packaging them into a plan that agents can sell.

P.s. I'm a victim of this plan too. $400/month for 15 yrs.

In before people saying things like:

"no la, got returns, you go through your benefit illustrations and see"

"no la, your cashback is guaranteed, the remaining portion is to generate interest returns"

"no la, you will earn money unless the funds cock up"

Perisher · Oct 21, 2015

Asphodeli said:
I hate siding with agents, but did anyone even read the print in the box before signing?

The summary clearly states the terms of this policy as well.

Misled/Confused. That's what's happening in those.
Happening on a random basis is perhaps fine but when tons of threads is about this, that means something is seriously wrong with the policy/agents/company. Specifically the way they are presented.

Lewis.T said:
If you look around, even investment plans are being called regular savings plans. I have little doubt that investments do not even have $1 guaranteed.

As can be seen in this agent stated example, regular savings plan is a clearly misleading/confusing term to use on investment plans.

There are many examples of misleading/confusing words by the company/policy/agents which is allowed by the authority but misleading/confusing for the layman.

Lewis.T · Oct 21, 2015

mrclubbie said:
In before people saying things like:

"no la, got returns, you go through your benefit illustrations and see"

"no la, your cashback is guaranteed, the remaining portion is to generate interest returns"

"no la, you will earn money unless the funds cock up"

Wow, just wow. I see you've thrown all sense of logic out the window.

I've made my point here and in several other threads of how your returns are made, if you choose to surrender early for whatever reason then don't expect to get back as much as what you put in.

https://www.prudential.com.sg/expor...es/downloads/reports/abu/2014/RPL_English.pdf

I guess half a billion paid out in 2014 is fake /sarcasm.

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