Repay OA vs outstanding loan

wisely98

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Hi all, apologies if this has been asked before.

Situation:
1. OA + accrued interest = $195k
2. Outstanding bank loan = $220k
3. Cash on hand = $150k

Question:
Should i:
1. repay OA + accrued interest so that CPF can start paying me on the $150k repaid?
2. repay outstanding bank loan so to reduce debt exposure & further usage of OA?

Thanks in advance
 

cscs3

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thanks, read that, but I don't have a RA. Bank loan interest = 1.65% fixed for 2 years, after which will be FHR8+1.65%. FHR=0.2% for now.

Not sure if the advice still holds true.

That's means you are still young. RA account start from age 55. Think is convert from SA.

When you took a loan, is from your OA. So when you pay back, it goes back to OA plus the potential 8interest earned if you have not taken the loan from CPF.

If you have cash on hand and does not has plan for it (or enough spare cash around). Mu suggestion is always return the money back to CPF. OA account you can earn 2.5% interest.
 
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wisely98

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That's means you are still young. RA account start from age 55. Think is convert from SA.

9 years away and wonder which way is better. Peace of mind to clear off loan especially in an increasing interest rate environment? Or earn 2.5% for retirement?
 

BBCWatcher

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1. repay OA + accrued interest so that CPF can start paying me on the $150k repaid?
Probably not. That's 2.5% interest (on restricted use funds), and you seem to have a long enough time horizon to do better. Special Account top-ups would do much better (4%), as an example.

2. repay outstanding bank loan so to reduce debt exposure & further usage of OA?
You certainly would not accelerate repayment on a 1.65% debt (or 1.85%), especially if there's a prepayment penalty involved. That's even worse than paying yourself back into your OA. 2.5% beats 1.65%/1.85% any day.

What's your third choice for investing that cash? I'm not liking these two ideas yet.
 

wisely98

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Probably not. That's 2.5% interest (on restricted use funds), and you seem to have a long enough time horizon to do better. Special Account top-ups would do much better (4%), as an example.

My SA has met current FRS.

You certainly would not accelerate repayment on a 1.65% debt (or 1.85%), especially if there's a prepayment penalty involved. That's even worse than paying yourself back into your OA. 2.5% beats 1.65%/1.85% any day.

What's your third choice for investing that cash? I'm not liking these two ideas yet.

I have no 3rd choice, except looking for high yield investments
 

BBCWatcher

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My SA has met current FRS.
How about your spouse?

I have no 3rd choice, except looking for high yield investments
You do have other choices, including the safest Singapore dollar choices. Let's take a look together....

There's a 15 year government bond coming to auction in September, issue code NZ13100V. You mentioned you have about 9 years to go to age 55, so I assume you're age 46 or thereabouts. The 15 year bond is currently yielding right around 2.7%, and that beats 2.5%. It'd take you up to age 61 or so, and that happens to work quite well for SRS purposes if you'd like to tuck some of that 15 year bond inside a SRS account and plan to draw down SRS starting at age 62.

I think I'd take the 2.7% bond over 2.5% OA. You can also sell a bond on the secondary market before maturity if need be, although there's no guarantee you'll get a particular price on the secondary market.

Perfect timing, really, because the maturity of that bond (return of principal) will land right in between your age 55 CPF withdrawal eligibility (earliest) and your age 65 CPF LIFE payout eligibility (earliest). You are, of course, allowed to defer both those dates, and I would if able. And if you don't need the principal proceeds of that maturing bond then you're certainly allowed to roll it over into paying yourself into your OA. You can also roll coupons in along the way, if you wish.

Hypothetically OA interest rates could rise above 2.5%, but that's not looking likely. The floor rate is still over 2 percentage points above the reference market interest rate. I'd take the 2.7% over the 2.5%, assuming you have a reasonable or better expectation to hold for the full 15 years. (Not absolutely mandatory you hold, but you should have that expectation.)

Let's see what else we've got....

There's this month's Singapore Savings Bond (SSB). If you hold this SSB to maturity (10 years), you get 2.57% yield. Still better than OA over that term, and it's much more liquid (albeit without the yield to maturity). The only problem is that you probably won't be able to stuff too much money into SSBs, but you and a spouse can each try to buy some.

So, does 2.57% for a 10 year hold, with intermediate liquidity and semi-annual coupon inflows, beat 2.5% for 9 years? It's a little closer call, but I'd say it does, yes.

Do you have any stock holdings? How much? At age 46, you've got roughly 20 years to run, and that's a pretty decent time horizon. So you could mix in some potentially higher yielding stuff.

Medisave top-ups with tax relief may also be possible if you or your spouse haven't reached the Basic Healthcare Sum (BHS) yet. Such top-ups must fit within the CPF Annual Limit. That earns 4% interest which bounces over to your Special Account.

You're certainly allowed to combine these various choices, and possible others.
 
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wisely98

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How about your spouse?
I'm single.

You do have other choices, including the safest Singapore dollar choices. Let's take a look together....

There's a 15 year government bond coming to auction in September, issue code NZ13100V. You mentioned you have about 9 years to go to age 55, so I assume you're age 46 or thereabouts. The 15 year bond is currently yielding right around 2.7%, and that beats 2.5%. It'd take you up to age 61 or so, and that happens to work quite well for SRS purposes if you'd like to tuck some of that 15 year bond inside a SRS account and plan to draw down SRS starting at age 62.

I think I'd take the 2.7% bond over 2.5% OA. You can also sell a bond on the secondary market before maturity if need be, although there's no guarantee you'll get a particular price on the secondary market.

Let's see what else we've got....

There's this month's Singapore Savings Bond (SSB). If you hold this SSB to maturity (10 years), you get 2.57% yield. Still better than OA over that term, and it's much more liquid (albeit without the yield to maturity). The only problem is that you probably won't be able to stuff too much money into SSBs, but you and a spouse can each try to buy some.

So, does 2.57% for a 10 year hold, with intermediate liquidity and semi-annual coupon inflows, beat 2.5% for 9 years? It's a little closer call, but I'd say it does, yes.

Do you have any stock holdings? How much? At age 46, you've got roughly 20 years to run, and that's a pretty decent time horizon. So you could mix in some potentially higher yielding stuff.

My current stockholding is extremely lopsided as I am into dividend investing - 95% REITS, 5% ETFs, market value approx = $148k.

I'm just concerned about the loan interest rate will increase after the fixed period, narrowing the gap between loan interest and investment return will narrow. That's why I was contemplating to just pay off the loan to have a peace of mind

Medisave top-ups with tax relief may also be possible if you or your spouse haven't reached the Basic Healthcare Sum (BHS) yet. Such top-ups must fit within the CPF Annual Limit. That earns 4% interest which bounces over to your Special Account.

You're certainly allowed to combine these various choices, and possible others.

BHS for me is also at max
 
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BBCWatcher

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My current stockholding is extremely lopsided as I am into dividend investing - 95% REITS, 5% ETFs, market value approx = $148k
Oh dear! Well, as long as you're in that posture at least, let's hope Singapore and real estate do no worse than "OK." (I don't think real estate will do any better than OK. The government simply won't tolerate anything better.)

Have you thought about diversifying that part at least somewhat?

With reasonable assumptions, I think the ~2.7% government bond coming to auction in September is a better deal than either of the two choices you outlined. If you're aiming for the absolute safest Singapore dollar choices -- and since you've got a risky posture otherwise, then maybe that's not a bad thing -- most likely you'd use some cash toward a blend of these three ingredients:

* Singapore Savings Bonds
* the 15 year bond inside a SRS wrapper (if the tax relief looks like it'll work out)
* the 15 year bond outside a SRS wrapper

All of these ingredients look like they're going to beat 2.5% OA and certainly beat your 1.65/1.85/... mortgage, at least for a good while. For ingredient #1 (SSBs), you get a couple attempts (this month, and next month) to place some funds before the 15 year bond comes to auction in September. I'm assuming you have not yet exhausted your $100,000 individual maximum allotment of SSBs.

You could consider plowing the bond coupons into OA repayments or into more SSBs, whichever looks better.

Surely there's a prepayment penalty on your mortgage? Accelerating repayment of that mortgage now would be particularly toxic if so. This month's SSB yields 1.78% even in the first year, and that beats the 1.65% you're paying, never mind the prepayment penalty. Yes, this is crazy that you can park money in a SSB (100% Singapore government guaranteed and quite liquid) and run ahead of a mortgage interest rate, but you can. Welcome to Singapore which has some weird interest rates right now on sovereign products.
 

wisely98

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Oh dear! Well, as long as you're in that posture at least, let's hope Singapore and real estate do no worse than "OK." (I don't think real estate will do any better than OK. The government simply won't tolerate anything better.)

Have you thought about diversifying that part at least somewhat?

Yes I know I'm taking a risk here, in view of the interest rate uprising. Having said that a large portion of my REITS investment is into the "relatively" safer healthcare industry and data centre which pays decent dividends.

I'm open to investing in ETFs that can provide similar yields. I have been reading your thread regularly. Currently deciding which broker to open account, either IB, FSMOne or DBST or SCB (priority banking).

With reasonable assumptions, I think the ~2.7% government bond coming to auction in September is a better deal than either of the two choices you outlined. If you're aiming for the absolute safest Singapore dollar choices -- and since you've got a risky posture otherwise, then maybe that's not a bad thing -- most likely you'd use some cash toward a blend of these three ingredients:

* Singapore Savings Bonds
* the 15 year bond inside a SRS wrapper (if the tax relief looks like it'll work out)
* the 15 year bond outside a SRS wrapper

All of these ingredients look like they're going to beat 2.5% OA and certainly beat your 1.65/1.85/... mortgage, at least for a good while. For ingredient #1 (SSBs), you get a couple attempts (this month, and next month) to place some funds before the 15 year bond comes to auction in September. I'm assuming you have not yet exhausted your $100,000 individual maximum allotment of SSBs.

You could consider plowing the bond coupons into OA repayments or into more SSBs, whichever looks better.

No i have not touched SSB. Reason being I am treating CPF as the bond component of my portfolio. So any excess liquidity I will put in high yield investments.

Surely there's a prepayment penalty on your mortgage? Accelerating repayment of that mortgage now would be particularly toxic if so. This month's SSB yields 1.78% even in the first year, and that beats the 1.65% you're paying, never mind the prepayment penalty. Yes, this is crazy that you can park money in a SSB (100% Singapore government guaranteed and quite liquid) and run ahead of a mortgage interest rate, but you can. Welcome to Singapore which has some weird interest rates right now on sovereign products.

Yes, the pentalty is 1.5% of prepaid amount, so that works out to be about $3.5k. I am hesistant on placing funds in SSB or SGS as there are some banks that offer similar or better interest rates than the above. I'm left with some room in Citibank Maxigain and UOB One account, but not much. That's why the need to look for alternatives.

I do agree that Singapore has its own weird way of running things. But I believe any gaps will be plugged in no time.
 
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BBCWatcher

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I am hesistant on placing funds in SSB or SGS as there are some banks that offer similar or better interest rates than the above.
Sort of. You've got the opposite risk with those accounts, the risk if interest rates fall. If you've got (some) 2.7% locked in for 15 years, then you have no risk if interest rates fall and very limited risk if they rise. (The OA interest rate is still over 2 percentage points above its market reference rate, so a great deal of market interest rate rise has to happen before the OA rate starts to creep up, and you're only trying to beat that.)

It's a little hard to grasp this idea of diversifying, but...I think you ought to diversify more. That includes managing interest rate risks better, and I think that 2.7% government bond would be a good ingredient. Not the only thing you do, since you're also playing the interest rate promotion games well, it seems. But ~2.7% locked in for 15 years is really quite compelling these days, for some of what you're trying to accomplish.

My two cents.
 

henrylbh

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Hi all, apologies if this has been asked before.

Situation:
1. OA + accrued interest = $195k
2. Outstanding bank loan = $220k
3. Cash on hand = $150k

Question:
Should i:
1. repay OA + accrued interest so that CPF can start paying me on the $150k repaid?
2. repay outstanding bank loan so to reduce debt exposure & further usage of OA?

Thanks in advance

If you are considering between option 1 or 2 only, I will choose 2 to save having to pay X% to the bank, which is out of pocket. That's is assuming your cash of 150k is yielding less than X%. If X% rise above 2.5%, use all cash and available OA to pay thel bank loan in full.

Is OA balance enough to settle loan in full and is your CPF contributions at the CPF Annual Limit?
 
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BBCWatcher

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You saw the part where there’s a prepayment penalty, right? It’s an absolutely horrible idea to prepay that mortgage right now. Maybe later, when the rate is both higher and the prepayment penalty is gone, but certainly not now.
 

henrylbh

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Which part mentioned repayment penalty? No agreement would bound you over the entire period of the long.

'may be prepaid in full without any prepayment fee by giving the bank 3 months' notice in writing'

'may be prepaid in part without any prepayment fee by giving the bank 1 month's notice in writing'
 
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henrylbh

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OK, so now is a supremely bad time to accelerate repayment of his mortgage, isn't it?

If interest rate rises above 2.5% and expected to stay above, then he can or should use his cash and OA that are yielding less to prepay partially if not fully by giving due notice of prepayment.

If interest is expected to stay above 2.5%, I will be making substantial prepayment by giving 1 month's notice followed by 3 months' notice to settle in full with my idle OA.

Ha ha nothing in my loan agreement says I cannot prepay 99% by giving 1 month's notice. Full prepayment needs 3 month's notice. Dumb clause?
 

SBC

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I dun really understand the rationale of repay OA option.

Can enlighten me?
 
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