Retirement account question

zoneguard

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Asking about this because heard that the top up cash have to use for LIFE premium.
Are you referring to this?

Higher CPF LIFE payouts following inflows to Retirement Account

From November 2021, CPF LIFE members who receive inflows, such as top-ups or housing refunds, will see an automatic increase in their CPF LIFE payouts. Members will start receiving higher payouts from July 2022. Currently, they have to apply to increase their CPF LIFE premiums with these inflows. Otherwise, these inflows will be paid to them as additional monthly payouts outside of CPF LIFE.
This refers to RA inflows after LIFE payout has already begun and the inflows will indeed now be used as additional LIFE premium.

For RA inflows before start of LIFE payout, I don't see any announcement of any changes so these will follow the existing LIFE plans' mechanism, ie for basic deduct 10-20% of RA as LIFE premium.
 

BBCWatcher

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If the objective is to maximise the returns from CPF Life to build up a larger bequest, and if one has no use for CPF Life due to having other passive income, I find that the best is to....
There's another option: use CPF LIFE for what it's best designed to do: guarantee monthly payouts for life. Then, since you have that guarantee, be more aggressive with the rest of your wealth. In particular, give it away! Don't wait for yourself to expire. You've got a grandkid accepted to Yale? Pay the damn tuition bill, now.

A bigger high quality sovereign guaranteed income stream for life, particularly of the escalating variety, gives you huge financial freedom, and you can and should be generous with that freedom -- to yourself and/or your loved ones.

Yeah, I know, many people don't understand what I'm trying to explain. I live in hope some of you will understand. ;)
4. Use the CPF Life payout for any OA housing loan refund for the 2.5% interest rate or contribute to SRS to minimise tax on any passive income (e.g. rental).
I rather doubt the SRS outlet will be viable at age 70+. Once you start withdrawing from a SRS account, which you're allowed to do as early as age 62 (for those who have or open SRS accounts by June 30, 2022), it's a one-way ticket. And you probably don't want your SRS account to end with a fat balance when you end, because that tax outcome isn't great.
1. SA and Oa shielding have investment risk. But what's the worst drawdown? A lost of 2% portfolio in 1 month and a perpetual 4% interest in SA and 2.5% in OA is not a small matter, compared to a lost of 2.5% interest and 4% interest forever... hmm.
If you shield with the right fund selection (a low volatility, highly "onshore," high quality Singapore dollar denominated bond fund) then -2% is highly improbable. But you're exactly right that even hellaciously terrible timing is still going to end up with a good result.
4. Housing refund is the last resort when you are super cash rich, and in this case, 1 in fact helps a lot. You do have the annual limit, BHS top up yearly and RSTU (RA top up by cash). Before even considering housing refund.
The BHS is fixed from age 65, so from then on you can only refill when there are withdrawals from MA. And since MA is earning 4.0% interest you probably want to avoid MA withdrawals if you can, unless there's some income tax relief at stake.

You can add funds to your RA every time the ERS is raised -- for the rest of your life if you wish. RA earns at least 4.0% interest, and that high interest earning basis/foundation feeds into your current or future CPF LIFE income stream.
Why would I want to earn 2.5% whereby I can earn blended 2.89% (split OA and SA/MA for VC) and also RSTU cash top up.
Once you've exhausted Voluntary Contributions to MA, RA top ups, and "all three account" Voluntary Contributions -- and among family members -- OA repayment then becomes the next most attractive option within the CPF universe. OA repayment is at the bottom of the attractiveness list, but it might still be comparatively attractive if you get to that point....

....But I don't think so. By that point I'd probably be handing the money to someone who has a longer time horizon than I do, to build/grow truly dynastic wealth via prudent long-term investments. And thus I've come full circle to make the same basic point again. ;)
 

yoongf

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then what happen to the 10k in the CPF RA account if we choose only $490k instead of $500k to join CPF life @70 ?
In CPF website, there is a online form ... "Apply to increase CPF Life premium".

This form does not have a field to indicate hw much to deduct. The system will automatically use all your RA balance.

My info was based on experience 2 yrs ago with an elderly acct. Not sure if its still the same. I am not 65 yet so my own account does not let me reach that page. Maybe someone abv 65 here can verify if u have a choice to decide hw much to add to CPF Life premium.

And the FAQ has been updated..

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/member/faq/r...iving-my-cpf-life-payouts--will-inflows-into-
 

andyhtc

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There's another option: use CPF LIFE for what it's best designed to do: guarantee monthly payouts for life. Then, since you have that guarantee, be more aggressive with the rest of your wealth. In particular, give it away! Don't wait for yourself to expire. You've got a grandkid accepted to Yale? Pay the damn tuition bill, now.

A bigger high quality sovereign guaranteed income stream for life, particularly of the escalating variety, gives you huge financial freedom, and you can and should be generous with that freedom -- to yourself and/or your loved ones.

Yeah, I know, many people don't understand what I'm trying to explain. I live in hope some of you will understand. ;)

I rather doubt the SRS outlet will be viable at age 70+. Once you start withdrawing from a SRS account, which you're allowed to do as early as age 62 (for those who have or open SRS accounts by June 30, 2022), it's a one-way ticket. And you probably don't want your SRS account to end with a fat balance when you end, because that tax outcome isn't great.

If you shield with the right fund selection (a low volatility, highly "onshore," high quality Singapore dollar denominated bond fund) then -2% is highly improbable. But you're exactly right that even hellaciously terrible timing is still going to end up with a good result.

The BHS is fixed from age 65, so from then on you can only refill when there are withdrawals from MA. And since MA is earning 4.0% interest you probably want to avoid MA withdrawals if you can, unless there's some income tax relief at stake.

You can add funds to your RA every time the ERS is raised -- for the rest of your life if you wish. RA earns at least 4.0% interest, and that high interest earning basis/foundation feeds into your current or future CPF LIFE income stream.

Once you've exhausted Voluntary Contributions to MA, RA top ups, and "all three account" Voluntary Contributions -- and among family members -- OA repayment then becomes the next most attractive option within the CPF universe. OA repayment is at the bottom of the attractiveness list, but it might still be comparatively attractive if you get to that point....

....But I don't think so. By that point I'd probably be handing the money to someone who has a longer time horizon than I do, to build/grow truly dynastic wealth via prudent long-term investments. And thus I've come full circle to make the same basic point again. ;)

I won't be distributing my wealth so early. I will only give them as a farewell gift after I expire :LOL:

I did not realise SRS is also subject to estate duty, so I guess SRS is out 🙁

It looks like I will be paying taxes until the day I expire... only death and taxes are the only certainties in life 😞
 

zoneguard

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I did not realise SRS is also subject to estate duty, so I guess SRS is out

It is not estate duty. It is "deemed withdrawal on death".
https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/indiv...als/special-tax-schemes/tax-on-srs-withdrawal
If an SRS member passes away, any sum standing in his SRS account shall be deemed to be withdrawn on the date of his death.

SRS members who have not started the 10-year withdrawal period will enjoy the full tax exemption of $400,000.
Otherwise, the exemption amount will be adjusted based on the prior withdrawals made, and the number of years remaining in the 10-year withdrawal period.

50% of any remaining amount of such a full or deemed withdrawal would then be subject to tax i.e. 50% of {full or deemed amount withdrawn on death - [amount exempt from tax or adjusted exemption amount - amount withdrawn on medical/retirement ground in year of full withdrawal/death (capped at $40,000)]} is subject to tax.
 
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Choose the LIFE plan: basic, standard or escalating and age to start payout (latest 70). For standard/escalating plans, all of RA is deducted as LIFE premium.

If you don't choose anything, standard plan to start payout at 70 is the default.
under the CPF life estimator , there is a slider which allow you to select the desire amount to join CPF life , but there is a min amount like 490k to 500k . If i have 500k @ 70 , but choose 490K , what happen to this 10K ?
 

andyhtc

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It is not estate duty. It is "deemed withdrawal on death".
https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/indiv...als/special-tax-schemes/tax-on-srs-withdrawal
If an SRS member passes away, any sum standing in his SRS account shall be deemed to be withdrawn on the date of his death.

SRS members who have not started the 10-year withdrawal period will enjoy the full tax exemption of $400,000.
Otherwise, the exemption amount will be adjusted based on the prior withdrawals made, and the number of years remaining in the 10-year withdrawal period.

50% of any remaining amount of such a full or deemed withdrawal would then be subject to tax i.e. 50% of {full or deemed amount withdrawn on death - [amount exempt from tax or adjusted exemption amount - amount withdrawn on medical/retirement ground in year of full withdrawal/death (capped at $40,000)]} is subject to tax.

I gathered from IRAS that SRS is also subjected to estate duty.

Q12. Is the amount standing in the deceased's Supplementary Retirement Scheme account subject to estate duty?


Yes, regardless of whether the SRS account comprises cash or other investments.

https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/other-taxes/estate-duty/faqs
 

BBCWatcher

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Don't worry about the mechanics of how the CPF Board deals with CPF Retirement Account balances as they feed into CPF LIFE. That's mere accounting, and it doesn't matter whether it's 10%, 20%, 100%, or whatever. Frankly I don't know why the CPF Board even bothers explaining that particular backend accounting detail, and lately they aren't trying very hard to explain it. Good! It's just not important. Your pro-rata claim on the CPF Lifelong Income Fund isn't any more or less valid than your CPF Retirement Account balance.

What matters is the outcome, the result. And the outcome is now even simpler: you choose your CPF LIFE payout plan, when to start payouts (age 65, 70, or anywhere in between), and that's that. If you want to add funds to your RA, you can, and that'll boost your monthly payout for life no matter what plan you select. (There are no more Additional Monthly Payouts, except for members already receiving AMPs.) If there's a residual when you die, there's a residual. It doesn't matter mechanically where it comes from. It's all a big bucket of dollars anyway -- it's not like they have separate cubbyholes for each member with Singapore dollar notes stuffed into each cubbyhole -- and there's a very good computer (and very good people) tracking your share(s) within the big bucket.
 
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My reading of the FAQs: you choose the LIFE plan and not the premium amount. Happy to be proven wrong from the FAQ. The LIFE estimator is a regression from the previous version.
here is the URL
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/eSvc/Web/Schemes/LifeEstimator/LifeEstimator
you can try , after enter "you life plan", "age" , "current RA amount" , u will be prompt to next page .


under this page , u will see your default monthly payout amount @65 & min amount join CPF life .

below that are 2 slider :

1) choose payout age from 65 to 70
2) choose amount to join from $400k to $500k ( range depend on yr current RA amount )
 

Froggyman

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Are you referring to this?


This refers to RA inflows after LIFE payout has already begun and the inflows will indeed now be used as additional LIFE premium.

For RA inflows before start of LIFE payout, I don't see any announcement of any changes so these will follow the existing LIFE plans' mechanism, ie for basic deduct 10-20% of RA as LIFE premium.
Yes. Thanks for the explanation.
Having a better understanding now.
Thanks for your key word ... AFTER.
:)
 

Froggyman

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here is the URL
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/eSvc/Web/Schemes/LifeEstimator/LifeEstimator
you can try , after enter "you life plan", "age" , "current RA amount" , u will be prompt to next page .


under this page , u will see your default monthly payout amount @65 & min amount join CPF life .

below that are 2 slider :

1) choose payout age from 65 to 70
2) choose amount to join from $400k to $500k ( range depend on yr current RA amount )
I believed that the 2nd slider is to let you know how much you need to top up in order to get that amount for that payout amount at age 65-70 .
 

tangent314

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2. Delay the withdrawal until 70 years old to earn more interest and get a higher payout.

3. Opt for the Basic plan if one is healthy and life expectancy is 85 years old (Singapore's average is 83.5).

83.5 is life expectancy at birth (actually 83.9 based on latest 2020 numbers)
Life expectancy at 70 years is 17.4, i.e. mean age of death at 87.4
Also, need to take into account that official life tables are periodic life tables which are 100% objective data but doesn't take into account future mortality rates. Actual life expectancy will be higher than the numbers given by periodic life tables.
 

andyhtc

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83.5 is life expectancy at birth (actually 83.9 based on latest 2020 numbers)
Life expectancy at 70 years is 17.4, i.e. mean age of death at 87.4
Also, need to take into account that official life tables are periodic life tables which are 100% objective data but doesn't take into account future mortality rates. Actual life expectancy will be higher than the numbers given by periodic life tables.

I will be very happy with 85 already. Beyond that extra money is not important to me anymore :)
 

vsvs24

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83.5 is life expectancy at birth (actually 83.9 based on latest 2020 numbers)
Life expectancy at 70 years is 17.4, i.e. mean age of death at 87.4
Also, need to take into account that official life tables are periodic life tables which are 100% objective data but doesn't take into account future mortality rates. Actual life expectancy will be higher than the numbers given by periodic life tables.
Think all the life expectancy figures would change in future because of Covid. Not just the deaths. Find my heart beating faster easily after vacination. I'm sure some long term side effect will surface eventually.
 

Value.Matrix

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Think all the life expectancy figures would change in future because of Covid. Not just the deaths. Find my heart beating faster easily after vacination. I'm sure some long term side effect will surface eventually.
Agree. For those that have underlying conditions, it seems the vaccine and covid would deal a blow to the body.

Heard of a couple of stories that there are some changes to the body, in terms of rapid heart rate rise than usual (experiencing this myself), or cancer appearing suddenly.

Some could be placebo, but if many report it, I believe there is an influence to a certain extend.

Death comes earlier so death payouts, and long term weakness in health could be too. Anyway these are left to experts. We just make the best out of the cards we are dealt with.
 

andyhtc

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Think all the life expectancy figures would change in future because of Covid. Not just the deaths. Find my heart beating faster easily after vacination. I'm sure some long term side effect will surface eventually.

Assuming 15 elderly dies every day, one year will be an additional 5,475 deaths.

Since the vaccines do not seem to be as effective for the elderly, this might be the Covid death rate for the next 2-3 years.

This will help the government to save a lot of medical costs and CPF interest payments.

Darwin's selection theory: survival of the fittest.
 
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