RIP to the Iron Lady

tequila_powered

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One of my hero in living memory. She helped broke the Cold War (and essentially destroyed communism and reduced the specter of nuclear Armageddon), lifted UK out from being the sick man of Europe, and stood by the Falklanders almost alone and what that represented. The lady was never for turning. God Bless.
 

Geforce3

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to be honest, she is not as great as you put her to be... She basically ****ed the working class in GB and no she didn't really do much to end the Cold War
 

nonliquet

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She was a Prime Minister of rare caliber, next to Churchill, the greatest -- and surely the greatest post-war Prime Minister.

She won three elections and received a greater number of the votes in her third election than in her first; if she was so monstrous to the working class, it's a wonder that she won any subsequent elections at all, let alone with a greater number of votes than she received the first time.

No. She didn't annihilate the working class. She faced reality and made the necessary reforms to save the country and them. She embittered many on the left who were resentful that union power was being curtailed, but equally many Britons are grateful to her for pulling Britain back from the brink of financial and economic ruin.

Intransigent unions brought the country to its knees by striking, because they wanted to maintain an economic arrangement that was unsustainable. The state was essentially subsidizing loss-making industries with other people's money. You soon run out of other people's money.

Before Thatcher, Britain was dysfunctional and immiserated; corpses and rubbish were piling up on the streets because of frequent strikes. It had a lower GDP per capita than European laggard Italy. Britain was in ineluctable decline.

She decisively halted and reversed that trajectory.

Before Thatcher -- the deprived '70s -- and after Thatcher -- the happy '90s, illustrates the stark improvement in the outlook of the country as a whole. She won the Falklands war, precipitating the collapse of the Junta, revitalized a trans-Atlantic relationship that would see Britain matter diplomatically and militarily again, after what was perceived as terminal and inexorable decline, and ushered the collapse of the Soviet Union by working, cannily, with Gorbachev when the Americans couldn't see an opening.

She was a stateswoman of the first rank, and rightly regarded as "great."
 

pyu

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She was definitely a great personality and possessed plenty of courage to take on a system which was decaying and not going to recover.

I would stop at calling her great or any such terms, because that word has unfortunate implications and usually leads to hagiographies and no small amount of white washing and lionization.

She was in many ways, a very callous person - perhaps a product of the decaying and failing big state socialist that Atlee had created under Labour . After all, she said that there was no society, just individuals and the economy.

Other than that, I got nothing for her. She believed strongly in capitalism, and together with Reagan, kickstarted the Anglo-American school of economic neo-liberalism that perhaps brought the world's to this stage where inequality is now at its highest.

In many ways, she is a destroyer, she ruled through division and she never attempted to take active steps to build on the ashes of what she destroyed. To this day, the northern part of the UK is struggling with the effects of her government's policies.

To put the achievements of her government in perspective, do remember many other European states like Germany, the Nordics, etc transitioned from big state socialism into mixed market economies earlier/later than the United Kingdom, with less destruction of their industrial capacity and less socio-economic fallout.
 
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tequila_powered

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She was definitely a great personality and possessed plenty of courage to take on a system which was decaying and not going to recover.

I would stop at calling her great or any such terms, because that word has unfortunate implications and usually leads to hagiographies and no small amount of white washing and lionization.

She was in many ways, a very callous person - perhaps a product of the decaying and failing big state socialist that Atlee had created under Labour . After all, she said that there was no society, just individuals and the economy.

Other than that, I got nothing for her. She believed strongly in capitalism, and together with Reagan, kickstarted the Anglo-American school of economic neo-liberalism that perhaps brought the world's to this stage where inequality is now at its highest.

In many ways, she is a destroyer, she ruled through division and she never attempted to take active steps to build on the ashes of what she destroyed. To this day, the northern part of the UK is struggling with the effects of her government's policies.

To put the achievements of her government in perspective, do remember many other European states like Germany, the Nordics, etc transitioned from big state socialism into mixed market economies earlier/later than the United Kingdom, with less destruction of their industrial capacity and less socio-economic fallout.

Germany and the Nordics did not have as powerful militant workers as UK back then. If you look back at the workers during the period called the winter of discontent, you would understand the extent of their political power and what they had wrought upon the nation, bringing the country to knees as sick man as europe. A big reason that these countries (ran mostly by socialist parties then) transitioned to mixed market was because they saw the positive results of Thatcherism (after all, if it was that bad to all workers, why on earth would these countries subsequently emulate Thatcherism instead of the alleged worker paradise of heavy socialism?) As for destruction of industrial capacity, if we look at those industries that were said to be most impacted during the three-term rule of the Iron Lady, we see that the same industries being impacted in these countries. The most mentioned industry - coal mining. Check the number of nationalized coal mine firms and workers directly employed by them back then in Germany and the number of nationalized coal mine firms and workers directly employed by them today. So we know that most of the countries have moved away from the socialism-heavy economy of the old, and we know that Iron Lady was the pathfinder. Being first, one did not have precedence to go by. Being later adopter, one had the advantage of learning from other's experience. Was the said gutting of UK heavy industries all due to Thatcher herself? Debatable. Most of Germany's heavy industries today are a shadow of their former selves (we are talking about nationalized companies and the cosseted workers (socialism), not the privatized market share or profit). It boils down to German workers transited from heavy socialism easier than UK workers. Germany was not in dire straits like UK, begging money from IMF while continuing to print money like water to pay off inefficient workers (younger generations would think the current Euro crisis with Greece is unique; older folks like myself just shrug our shoulders and say "what's new?"). They had time. Their workers were not as militant; Germany did not have a Winter of Discontent (not that they did not have strikes) while at edge of national bankruptcy. These worked in their favor to allow an lengthier orderly transition of workers to other industries AND be more efficient. Really, I doubt many Germans today would prefer to still work in coal mines and shipyard compared to other available jobs while many of the anti-thatcher folks mentioned in recent media (partying and celebrating) spoke mostly of these old industries. So if you ask me, the socio-economic fallout was also the fault of the UK workers whom themselves put themselves (individuals) first before society (the nation and the rest of the voters). Two hands to clap, eh?

No one is above faults for sure. If Greatness precludes fault, no one in history can be called great. The proof of her greatness, if you ask me, is that even when the government fall back to the Labor, the erstwhile champion of socialism, they kept the bulk of her strategy intact.

* side notes - and no, Thatcher only remove milk for a section of school kids, other governments earlier had removed milk for other sections. Those who "cry milk" against Thatcher in those UK articles but refused to do so against the earlier governments basically exposed the failings of their logical reasoning. The other breakdown of logical reasoning in other forums is where hardcore SDP supporters railed bitterly against the apparent abandonment of [loss-making] manufacturing in UK by Thatcher as product of privatization policy; and yet they previously gleefully championed SDP's Alternate Policy which proposed against.....[profitable private] manufacturing.

Unsustainability of Manufacturing

A major contributor to the increased economic volatility was manufacturing which has been promoted by the government in the past 5 decades as a key pillar of its economic growth strategy. The strategy was successful in the first 2 decades but by the early 1980′s, it was running into bottlenecks as Singapore’s constraints manifested themselves.

Singapore has little comparative or competitive advantage for manufacturing to flourish as land, labour and skills are in short supply. The manufacturing sector can only remain viable in Singapore through more subsidized factory land and space, uninterrupted inflow of cheap foreign labour, and generous tax holidays and other giveaways. Such economic distortions in the last thirty years have delayed Singapore’s economic restructuring. We cannot afford and should not tolerate further wastage, not even for another year.

Two additional factors weigh against manufacturing – firstly, most top students are not opting to read engineering as their first choice in the local universities and polytechnics, a trend that does not augur well for the innovative potential of nor the prospect for ‘complex manufacturing’ , a niche that the ESC wants to promote; and secondly, Singaporeans are happier working in the services sector than in manufacturing industry. Without a happy and talented workforce, can complex manufacturing succeed in a sustainable way?

http://singaporeelection.blogspot.sg/2011/04/sdp-tan-jee-say-pap-economy-at-breaking.html

2 quids
 
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nonliquet

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The notion that she was callous is simply false, as tributes in the Lords and Commons yesterday made clear; attestations to her personal kindness were striking and numerous.

Lord Young, for example, recalled a dinner at which Thatcher implored his wife not to complain about a lapse in service (a hapless waiter had spilled something on her dress). When it happened, "Margaret grabbed her arm and said 'don't say a word -- if you complain he'll lose his job'." Young, like many others, observed that Thatcher was kindest to the least important people, and harshest to the most important, like her cabinet ministers.

She wept, inconsolable, when the Sheffield was sunk in the Falklands, and although grimly determined to win the war, bore the weight and responsibility for those casualties heavily. She would work feverishly and without sleep, discharging the grave duty of hand writing letters to the parents of servicemen who had died.

She did what had to be done, but was ever mindful of the human cost. On the eve of the conflict, she wrote to Galtieri: "In a few days . . . your eyes and mine will be reading the casualty lists. On my side, grief will be tempered by the knowledge that these men died for freedom, justice, and the rule of law. And on your side? Only you can answer the question."

Callous? No. She was never more distraught.

Suggestions that she was divisive are also overwrought: she upended the post-war policy consensus and shifted it to the right, where it remains. No one wants to go back to the immiserated '70s. Britain post-Thatcher was unquestionably better off, on the whole, than Britain pre-Thatcher. Lamenting the passing of unsustainable mining communities in the north doesn't alter that salient fact.

The Nordics never had militant unions and sclerotic state control over most of the means of production, nor did they have a divisive, reactionary left opposed tooth and claw to reform. There was broad consensus for change. So they could make the transition relatively painlessly.

Not so in Britain, where resistant factions had to be brought to heel. The apposite comparison is France during Mitterrand (failure followed by austerity), not the Nordics.

Her successes, viewed in context, are even more extraordinary: she did it all at a time when women leaders were a comparative rarity, when the establishment was chauvinistically male, when the glass ceiling was oppressively real, and she did it against the grain of class, that peculiar British affliction.

She was a a trailblazer. A grocer's daughter who died in the Ritz a baroness, having saved the country. Her grit, guts, and conviction, and her ferocious capacity for work -- the most hardworking Prime Minister in modern memory -- altered the course of history for the better.

If anyone merits hagiography, she does.
 

nonliquet

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Her remarks on society, often used as some kind of inane gotcha, allude to precisely the opposite point you implied she was making.

Here's what she actually she said: "There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate."

Her point wasn't that there are only individuals and the economy so let's be selfish. Her point was that real charity begins with personal responsibility and individual sympathy for the plight of the less fortunate. That reliance on amorphous, abstracted "society" -- government -- is subversive, because it subverts one's moral obligations to others by outsourcing charity and morality that should, in the first instance, be the responsibility of the individual.

It's a celebration of individual morality and a rebuke of dependancy culture and the craven morality that comes with blaming the system for every moral failure when we should be looking at ourselves.

No wonder the left are notoriously less charitable than the political right. Their attitude, congruent with their political beliefs, is: let "society" take care of it. By which they mean other people. By which they mean government appropriating that function. By which they mean blaming the system for the ills of others. Everyone but themselves.

Thatcher's point is of course lost in the weeds, distorted to make a different point than she was originally making.
 

Providence

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I do not know much about her governance methods in the UK but her decision to liberate the Falklands Islands after a swift Argentine invasion really amazed me. She did not know whether the 'gamble' was good enough to free the Falklands Islands but she approved the military operation anyway. In the end, the war was a success and Argentine forces were forced off the islands swiftly. Her popularity among the British people shot up sharply due to the successful military campaign. I guess her decisiveness really saved the day for the Islanders.
 

nonliquet

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They could never defeat her in life, so faux triumphalism in death will have to do.

Ghoulish. And those proposing to disrupt her funeral are nothing more than Westboro Baptists.
 

Providence

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Well! She did made a name in the history of Mankind as the most impressive female leader of UK during those times.
 
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