Same Speed, Same Network - Simba

seowbin

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Although i don't fight in the home broadband network but such claim is misleading leh :s13:

same physical fiber yes but same network, no?
each provider have their own exit to internet

some good, some better than others :s13:
 

Mach3.2

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layperson don't know. 🤣

Simba's upstream seems limited and budget...

that aside, i wonder how their upstream performs.
 

Henry Ng

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layperson don't know. 🤣

Simba's upstream seems limited and budget...

that aside, i wonder how their upstream performs.
Agree, normal user will not know. ISP will not let us know too. Simba home internet does not assign you your own unique public IP address; it uses Carrier-grade NAT (CGNAT) which means you share a single public IP address with other customers. Impact on corporate VPNs: You may face issues connecting to corporate VPNs if they rely on a unique, non-shared IP address. CGNAT doesn't directly slow internet speeds but can cause slower performance due to increased latency from shared IP addresses, potential connection limits, and bottlenecks during peak usage.
 
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Henry Ng

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Google clearly mentioned that same fibre cable does not means same network. The fibre cable is like the road and the ISP is like the cars on the road.
 

seowbin

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Google clearly mentioned that same fibre cable does not means same network. The fibre cable is like the road and the ISP is like the cars on the road.
In the video, they say same fiber network

Blah blah

Same speed and same network wor.

It's like Thai . Same same but not the same
 

Henry Ng

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In the video, they say same fiber network

Blah blah

Same speed and same network wor.

It's like Thai . Same same but not the same
Well that is ISP way of selling their plan. It is like saying all BTO flats are the same regardless of its location, PLH or Standard. :):):)
 

probablye

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I was recently testing some of the local telcos to see which would work better as a 5G backup for my dual WAN setup. One of the things I checked was the international routing.

For Simba, all the US traffic get routed via Europe. And they have very limited local peering. I observed some of the local traffic tromboning to Japan and back.
 

bert64

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Although i don't fight in the home broadband network but such claim is misleading leh :s13:

same physical fiber yes but same network, no?
each provider have their own exit to internet

some good, some better than others :s13:

What they are referring to is the local loop, which technically is the same...
When you use online "speedtest" sites this is all you're testing too as the traffic is prioritised and the default servers are located nearby, so typical users will use the common speedtest sites and confirm their claims.

The local loop was important back in the days of ADSL, where the quality/length of the physical copper directly affected the sync rate. It's no longer very relevant with fibre but the same speedtest processes are still being used because they suit the marketing.

In 99.999% of cases with a fibre connection and a local server you will see line rate on a "speedtest", but performance of real things the user actually wants to do could vary wildly.

Actual factors (peering, CGNAT, IPv6 vs legacy IP, traffic shaping, congestion etc) are not understood by most users, so they expect the vast majority of potential customers to not notice the potential downsides.
 

xiaofan

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In 99.999% of cases with a fibre connection and a local server you will see line rate on a "speedtest", but performance of real things the user actually wants to do could vary wildly.

Actually not the case for Stahub/MR back in 2024 and many users complained. Basically Starhub/MR launched 10Gbps service before their backend was ready.

But now all ISPs including SIMBA are more or less okay with local SpeedTest. Most of the local speed issue comes from the user side.

BUT SIMBA is still trying to say the following -- which probably shows that their backend is weaker than the others. After the merger with M1, things may get better. SIMBA Fibre Broadband anyway has negeligle number of subscribers.
https://support.simba.sg/hc/en-us/a...ocal-Download-Speed-of-SIMBA-10Gbps-Broadband

The Typical Local Download Speed of our 10Gbps Broadband plan is between 6.5Gbps to 8.1Gbps.
...
Note however that based on NLT’s standard topology for the provision of standard Residential GPON services, there is a 24:1 split ratio for each port. This means that a single 10Gbps port on SIMBA’s equipment is shared by up to 24 users. SIMBA deploys a ā€œfair-queueā€ scheme that ensures no single user can monopolize the available bandwidth; resources are shared equally among the actively connected users. Therefore, the theoretical lowest speed at any time could be as low as 10Gbps / 24 = approximately 400Mbps.
...
 

bert64

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Agree, normal user will not know. ISP will not let us know too. Simba home internet does not assign you your own unique public IP address; it uses Carrier-grade NAT (CGNAT) which means you share a single public IP address with other customers. Impact on corporate VPNs: You may face issues connecting to corporate VPNs if they rely on a unique, non-shared IP address. CGNAT doesn't directly slow internet speeds but can cause slower performance due to increased latency from shared IP addresses, potential connection limits, and bottlenecks during peak usage.
CGNAT is endemic in other countries, eg in Thailand all the providers have CGNAT by default and you have to pay a significantly higher fee to avoid it. Newer providers (eg simba, starlink etc) and providers in developing countries have no choice but to use CGNAT.
Another potentially more significant problem is if you use any software that does p2p (bittorrent, games, voice/video calls with telegram or whatsapp etc), as two users behind CGNAT cannot connect directly to each other the traffic has to be proxied through a third party server - depending where that server is the latency could be increased significantly, and because of the cost of relaying all this traffic the services will often reduce quality to lower their costs. As you can't peer with local users due to CGNAT, your torrent downloads will come from users further away and often be much slower.

Other problems are caused by the shared IP is being banned from services or forced to complete captchas. Services have no real way to differentiate between a NAT gateway with lots of legitimate users behind it, or a single malicious user. They also use tracking cookies to log if you've already completed the captcha check.

Also since a single IP from an external perspective could be multiple users, for legal reasons the ISP needs to log all of the traffic going through the NAT gateway, so that if faced with a court order they are able to track a single connection back to an individual customer. As this tracking is expensive and needed anyway, ISPs are more likely to try to monetize the log stream to recover some of the costs.

CGNAT equipment is also extremely expensive, and sits alongside instead of replacing the routing equipment so the cost of service is higher. This is either reflected in higher service fees, reduced service elsewhere (eg poor transit), or trying to sell information from the logs as an extra revenue stream.

The answer is IPv6. No CGNAT needed, every device has its own public address. If you're using an ISP with CGNAT for legacy traffic and IPv6 you will notice some things are much faster and work much better than others. Those faster sites will be the ones using IPv6.
 

bert64

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Actually not the case for Stahub/MR back in 2024 and many users complained. Basically Starhub/MR launched 10Gbps service before their backend was ready.
The local loop would still be ok subject to whatever contention ratios exist at the GPON level, and the ISP can still prioritise the traffic to make their speedtest results look better.

Users complain largely because their own equipment cannot handle the full rate, and because many of the speedtest sites also couldnt handle 10gb, and the expectation built up from slower services is that users will see line rate on speedtest sites.

Similarly the CPEs typically supplied struggle to achieve 10gbps, and can only do so under ideal conditions.

Individual network interfaces depend on the generation of PCIE and number of lanes. A lot of consumer equipment with 10gb ports doesn't have enough capacity on the bus to keep multiple ports flat out simultaneously, and a router needs at least one in one out.
Even if the hardware is theoretically capable of it, adding extra overhead like firewall rules, NAT, checksum calculation etc reduces the overall throughput.

I have 10GB LAN with a high end cisco switch, and even local traffic is sometimes significantly less than 10GB depending on the devices and protocols involved. Services need optimization and tuning to be able to saturate a 10GB link, eg NFS, SMB, HTTP etc simply won't saturate a 10gb link in the default configurations, although multiple devices through a single 10gbps trunk can easily fill the link.
The same was true with early days of 1gbps and 100mbps interfaces..
 

Henry Ng

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CGNAT is endemic in other countries, eg in Thailand all the providers have CGNAT by default and you have to pay a significantly higher fee to avoid it. Newer providers (eg simba, starlink etc) and providers in developing countries have no choice but to use CGNAT.
Another potentially more significant problem is if you use any software that does p2p (bittorrent, games, voice/video calls with telegram or whatsapp etc), as two users behind CGNAT cannot connect directly to each other the traffic has to be proxied through a third party server - depending where that server is the latency could be increased significantly, and because of the cost of relaying all this traffic the services will often reduce quality to lower their costs. As you can't peer with local users due to CGNAT, your torrent downloads will come from users further away and often be much slower.

Other problems are caused by the shared IP is being banned from services or forced to complete captchas. Services have no real way to differentiate between a NAT gateway with lots of legitimate users behind it, or a single malicious user. They also use tracking cookies to log if you've already completed the captcha check.

Also since a single IP from an external perspective could be multiple users, for legal reasons the ISP needs to log all of the traffic going through the NAT gateway, so that if faced with a court order they are able to track a single connection back to an individual customer. As this tracking is expensive and needed anyway, ISPs are more likely to try to monetize the log stream to recover some of the costs.

CGNAT equipment is also extremely expensive, and sits alongside instead of replacing the routing equipment so the cost of service is higher. This is either reflected in higher service fees, reduced service elsewhere (eg poor transit), or trying to sell information from the logs as an extra revenue stream.

The answer is IPv6. No CGNAT needed, every device has its own public address. If you're using an ISP with CGNAT for legacy traffic and IPv6 you will notice some things are much faster and work much better than others. Those faster sites will be the ones using IPv6.
Yes with ip address will cost more and this is the same here. That is the reason why Simba cheaper.
 

bert64

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Yes with ip address will cost more and this is the same here. That is the reason why Simba cheaper.
Yes, but point is people in SG currently have options (at least for now). Other countries often don't.

In terms of cost Simba probably have more overheads due to the cost of CGNAT and the cost of acquiring enough legacy IP to even use CGNAT. Compared to say Singtel who have large historical legacy IP allocations, don't need expensive CGNAT equipment and aren't planning to grow their customer base significantly. Offering a lower price means either they cut overheads in other areas, or they're willing to accept thinner margins, which is a common strategy for a new service looking to grow.

Merging with M1 is an interesting case... They were originally set up as a competitor to the existing providers, but it seems they've concluded that it won't be profitable long term. Otherwise they could simply have invested in M1 at the start.
 

Henry Ng

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Yes, but point is people in SG currently have options (at least for now). Other countries often don't.

In terms of cost Simba probably have more overheads due to the cost of CGNAT and the cost of acquiring enough legacy IP to even use CGNAT. Compared to say Singtel who have large historical legacy IP allocations, don't need expensive CGNAT equipment and aren't planning to grow their customer base significantly. Offering a lower price means either they cut overheads in other areas, or they're willing to accept thinner margins, which is a common strategy for a new service looking to grow.

Merging with M1 is an interesting case... They were originally set up as a competitor to the existing providers, but it seems they've concluded that it won't be profitable long term. Otherwise they could simply have invested in M1 at the start.
We small country benefits. Some countries 10Gbps still not nationwide yet. Our 10Gbps is already nationwide.
 

bert64

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We small country benefits. Some countries 10Gbps still not nationwide yet. Our 10Gbps is already nationwide.
It's mostly early adopter benefits because legacy IP was first come first served. You can still get public legacy IP in the US and UK for instance, but in some parts of the US dialup is the only option because there's nothing else available and the copper lines are too long for ADSL. Some parts of the UK are still stuck with low rate ADSL too. Yet some cities in both countries have 10gb (and potentially faster) services available however.

Starlink is popular in these kinds of areas as it's a big step up from dialup, but you're stuck with CGNAT because starlink are a new provider. The dialup providers typically don't use CGNAT as they are old and have a declining customer base. AOL only shut down their dialup service last month and they still had a few thousand active users. They used to have over 25 million active subscribers in the US alone 20+ years ago.

Some of the UK and US providers even used to offer blocks of legacy IP on consumer accounts at no extra cost, and there are still users with these legacy plans. They also typically offer a /56 or /48 of v6 and give you control over your own reverse dns among other things, and had native v6 since 2007 or earlier.
 

uncle_josh

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The answer is IPv6. No CGNAT needed, every device has its own public address. If you're using an ISP with CGNAT for legacy traffic and IPv6 you will notice some things are much faster and work much better than others. Those faster sites will be the ones using IPv6.
Question is many sites not implementing it. If you turn off IPv4, many sites not accessible, eg
Hardwarezone. Hahaha.
 

bert64

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Question is many sites not implementing it. If you turn off IPv4, many sites not accessible, eg
Hardwarezone. Hahaha.
Yes but major ones are (google, microsoft, facebook, netflix, *.gov.sg, *.gov etc). In fact, netflix has a lot of v6-only infrastructure and additional streaming nodes that you won't be able to use from a legacy network:

https://www.ev6.net/v6sites.php?search=netflix&address_search=
https://www.ev6.net/v6sites.php?search=nflx&address_search=

Networks like facebook are v6-first. Everything is native v6, and legacy ip is only provided at the border load balancers for backwards compatibility. There are also many cases where networks have full redundant BGP for v6, but only a single path for legacy ip. Then there are sites where they have an antiquated backend but use a modern frontend like cloudflare to provide current features like tls1.3, ipv6 and http3.

Having the majority of traffic routing over v6 reduces the cost and load on CGNAT. You end up only using the CGNAT for a small minority of legacy sites.

Users do notice that some sites are fast while others are sluggish, even if they don't understand why.

If you run something like pfsense it differentiates between v6 and legacy traffic when showing traffic stats, typical users on a dual stack network will see 60-80% of their traffic going over v6 - most major sites and most CDNs, including most heavy traffic sites like netflix/youtube/steam downloads/etc.
 
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BradenHeat

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basically Marketing and sales vs technical vs non technical purchasers.


its been that way since the dial up days.,..... nothing new.

Was one of the " gamer router " folks, but at least the redeeming features of asus is the firmware from opensource folks
 

seowbin

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The ad is designed to mislead people isn't it...

It's like one day chervy say we use Ferrari designer, same material, same CC

End up , designer is for chassis design not engine design. horsepower much lesser :grin:
And of course cherry being chervy. People pre-order liao.

Upon release, people then know engine not same Ferrari performance


Same same but not the same
 
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