ST: Fraud: Hold external auditors accountable

[lyfeforce]

unfortunately, this is not how the world works.

Job scope of IT personnel will never include look through the client's data and report to police if something seems wrong. same for auditors. They each have a restricted job scope.

Actually, I've a question, not sure if it's relevant.

If you're an IT personnel and you happen to find child porn on your client's computer, do you report it?

But of course, auditors don't find anything by accident, they're actually paid to look for compliance and discrepancies (if any). They are required to publish a full report but should there be fraudulent practice, what happens then?

Something for me to ponder...

 

[sunzoner]

Actually, I've a question, not sure if it's relevant.

If you're an IT personnel and you happen to find child porn on your client's computer, do you report it?

But of course, auditors don't find anything by accident, they're actually paid to look for compliance and discrepancies (if any). They are required to publish a full report but should there be fraudulent practice, what happens then?

Something for me to ponder...

Once you report, you will no longer have clients as you are not suppose to spy on your clients.

 

[Jarlaxle]

unfortunately, this is not how the world works.

Job scope of IT personnel will never include look through the client's data and report to police if something seems wrong. same for auditors. They each have a restricted job scope.

i dunno wat kind of IT personnel u r referring to

anyway, it is not hard to detect fraudulent stuff lah.
as i mentioned earlier, for the 1.1billion missing cash for the china company.

its a matter of negligence or juz conceal.

i only care about public interest.
if it is only for a few individuals or a company to gain from it. even its not reported. i dun tink anyone cares lah.

if u see documents/data that contains treason against our republic, i suppose u will also keep quiet right?

 

[Jarlaxle]

maybe one day... the auditing biz model needs to change to something like patent examination.

you pay the govt a fee to examine your patent for patentability.
the govt then outsource the examination for others to examine.
then the vendor returns the result to the govt.

govt in turns, tell u whether u can patent ur invention or not.

remove conflict of interest for vendors! lol

 

[Jarlaxle]

Actually, I've a question, not sure if it's relevant.

If you're an IT personnel and you happen to find child porn on your client's computer, do you report it?

But of course, auditors don't find anything by accident, they're actually paid to look for compliance and discrepancies (if any). They are required to publish a full report but should there be fraudulent practice, what happens then?

Something for me to ponder...

well, tats how the jonathan MOE scholar kena right? but then again, child porn's effect to public interest can be quite low. compared to bernard madoff's scam or s--chip companies accounts or even treason information.

yup, they are required to publish a full report but they dont need to commit much responsibilities to it.
in the event of fraudulent practice, they just need to retract their report and ask u to read their disclaimers.

Arthur Andersen has to kena from Worldcom and Enron to lose their LICENSE.
but can u imagine the number of ppl who suffered from the effects of 2 multibillion dollars companies that hv gone bankrupt ?!

then all that Arthur Andersen needed to do is to rebrand itself as Accentures

 

[ponpokku]

snip

u dun need to be a lawyer, but with some common sense will do.

personal liberties and such are the things that made up public interests. what is the 'public' in a community or nation? made up of individuals, esp individuals with similar interests. the law/constitution is phrased in such a manner, cos it is known from past history, trespassing individual's liberties ultimately lead to disregard of public interests. if i can penalise ANYONE in the name of public interests, then i can penalise EVERYONE in the name of public interests.

u are arguing for the sake of arguing. docs and nurses are providing public services and have strict rules and ethics on them. the laws, the medical association rules. only auxilary police are outsourced, something like security guards. are u saying the main body of SPF are outsourced? dun discredit urself in such a manner.

and so what there is one big case in china? u have one murder case u suspect everyone is a potential murderer? u see one car accident report u decided not to go out of ur house? super weak argument ok? the system doesnt eliminate crime, but try to reduce it and oso pursue it if irregularities are found.

this is sorta like sch exams, the idea is not to fail all the students, but to make sure they study for it and pass. u cant say the exams are not good and we should design it in a manner that all will pass (or all will fail), so that none is left out. then in this case the exam is as good as non-existant. the system will always allow a certain percentage of grey areas, becos human activities are not strictly law by law. u type a personal letter on ur office computer, is that corruption? u called home using ur office phone, is that corruption? can the auditors go down into such details? well the power bills and phone bills do reflect in dollars and cents, so?

 

[ponpokku]

Actually, I've a question, not sure if it's relevant.

If you're an IT personnel and you happen to find child porn on your client's computer, do you report it?

But of course, auditors don't find anything by accident, they're actually paid to look for compliance and discrepancies (if any). They are required to publish a full report but should there be fraudulent practice, what happens then?

Something for me to ponder...

as mentioned in the other much earlier thread, they will inform the client that there are discrepancies. in other words, asking 'have u missed out something, sir?' they cant pass judgement that the client is wilfully trying to conceal something and immediately blow whistle, it could be pure carelessness. if the client realised there is some other info and updated the accountants, then everything is fine. if the clients tried to conceal, give different sets of numbers that dun tally with the accountants, then the accountant can blow whistle, cos the final report is not something he actually did, it concerns his credibility. unless of cos, the accountants ganged up with the clients.

something like u publicly ask a writer to write a biblo for u, but the final published work is actually done by someone else, or has much added stuff that was not in the original copy, of cos the writer can publicly say that it is not his writings and he claims no responsibility for the accuracy of the article. so blow whistle.

as for the IT guy, how'd he know it is child porn without peeking into it? becos the filename says so? cant penalise the client becos he named a file as 'child porn', right? that aside, he was hire to fix certain IT problems, it is not his job scope to look into other areas.

 

[Jarlaxle]

personal liberties and such are the things that made up public interests. what is the 'public' in a community or nation? made up of individuals, esp individuals with similar interests. the law/constitution is phrased in such a manner, cos it is known from past history, trespassing individual's liberties ultimately lead to disregard of public interests. if i can penalise ANYONE in the name of public interests, then i can penalise EVERYONE in the name of public interests.

yup, it is the role of everyone to defend public interest.

u are arguing for the sake of arguing. docs and nurses are providing public services and have strict rules and ethics on them. the laws, the medical association rules. only auxilary police are outsourced, something like security guards. are u saying the main body of SPF are outsourced? dun discredit urself in such a manner.

i can say the same for u. no end lah. not going to debate whether for sake or no sake lol
doc n nurse from private hosp are doing public services meh?

well, a really large body is outsourced compared to the past at least!
i dun discredit anyone. im juz stating it coz i see the increase in outsourced officers. thats all. nothing right or wrong.

and so what there is one big case in china? u have one murder case u suspect everyone is a potential murderer? u see one car accident report u decided not to go out of ur house? super weak argument ok? the system doesnt eliminate crime, but try to reduce it and oso pursue it if irregularities are found.

i din say i suspect everyone
but if u noticed someone, u shld not keep quiet. lol
eg, if u see blood stains and bloodied knife.
of coz u will argue, that was used to butcher a pig

this is sorta like sch exams, the idea is not to fail all the students, but to make sure they study for it and pass. u cant say the exams are not good and we should design it in a manner that all will pass (or all will fail), so that none is left out. then in this case the exam is as good as non-existant. the system will always allow a certain percentage of grey areas, becos human activities are not strictly law by law. u type a personal letter on ur office computer, is that corruption? u called home using ur office phone, is that corruption? can the auditors go down into such details? well the power bills and phone bills do reflect in dollars and cents, so?

i only know exam is used to assess capabilities of the students.
its not meant to be fail or pass everyone.
coz if thats the case, such an exam can be gamed too

theres no answer or solution.
i asked for solutions, but u r only picking on my analogy lol.

we arent lawmakers and these type of concerns are not bread n butter issue to common folks.
govt wont do anything lah.

anyway, lets go into something recent that has happened. no pt arguing for the sake of something hypothetical right?

china hong xing
not being able to count 1.1billion of nonexistent cash for 10 yrs... really dun make sense. this is really very basic liao! its not unfair to question this right?
1,100,000,000!

how did such a thing happen? why did the auditors not detect it several years earlier?
plenty of suspended s-chip in sgx if u feel that i did not use a good example. id find something else like chinamilk or hongwei, etc.

wayyyy too many for my comfort.
to this point
dun read too much into auditor report.
they can retract anytime. no value.

 

[Jarlaxle]

which IT guy will be so silly?
opening a file is nothing difficult juz to verify lol
even if he reports w/o verifying its ok also.

SMRT n SPF tell us to report unknown packages on train!
furthermore, they are telling us not to verify its content or even opening it!

juz use common sense in the right context?

 

[sunzoner]

which IT guy will be so silly?
opening a file is nothing difficult juz to verify lol
even if he reports w/o verifying its ok also.

SMRT n SPF tell us to report unknown packages on train!
furthermore, they are telling us not to verify its content or even opening it!

juz use common sense in the right context?

The last time i checked, i have over 1000 jpeg files on my Laptop. Most of them feature my kids. Some should the IT guy call the police? I could be planning kidnapping, murder or ransom. BTW, I have details of my wife's credit cards on my Laptop too. So should the IT guy report me to the police for credit card fraud?

common sense is uncommon.

 

[sunzoner]

...

china hong xing
not being able to count 1.1billion of nonexistent cash for 10 yrs... really dun make sense. this is really very basic liao! its not unfair to question this right?
1,100,000,000!

how did such a thing happen? why did the auditors not detect it several years earlier?
plenty of suspended s-chip in sgx if u feel that i did not use a good example. id find something else like chinamilk or hongwei, etc.

...

you are comitting a logical fallacy. Please check that post to see which one.

 

[ponpokku]

snip

then u dun live in a modern society, or not fit to live in a modern society. cos u dun understand the basics of the laws.

of cos doc and nurses from private hospital are oso doing public services. u drop them an emergency patient at their door without ID wadever, u think they throw him out or save him first? think lah, dun assume. of cos u can say in china they will throw him out, but the law will still penalise them. a public service isnt exactly the same as a public servant.

u didnt say anyone or everyone, then who would qualify for a report? what would qualify u to file a report? no standards? anyhow hantam? when the law is out it is not about u, it is everyone. any tom dick harry can just report his neighbours without prove and put him thru a long investigation process and end up nothing. are u going to pay ur tax money for such monkey business? i know i'm not. in the end everyone can just report anyone for fun. no one will be penalised. ur big time crook will get away while the police waste their resources on such issues.

there is no solution cos u cant come up with a workable solution. ur suggestions obviously bring more problem and waste more resources. so the best thing is no need to change.

so? in the end they discover the money or not? well? first u say it didnt work, now u say they eventually found the money? did it work or not?

 

[ponpokku]

which IT guy will be so silly?
opening a file is nothing difficult juz to verify lol
even if he reports w/o verifying its ok also.

SMRT n SPF tell us to report unknown packages on train!
furthermore, they are telling us not to verify its content or even opening it!

juz use common sense in the right context?

haha, there u go, withou verify it is ok? so i can just hantam anyone? see? it works this way.

SMRT and SPF ask u to report unidentified packages as unidentified packages, did not ask u to report it as a bomb or a terrorist attack. u see the diff? what u are saying then, is that auditors should poke into everything, meaning SMRT asking the public to probe the unidentified packages. wow. then, what u are saying now is that u see discrepancies u simply report a fraud, a crime, real or not never mind. so which one are u at? how are u going to tackle the problem of ppl happily reporting anything and everything for the police to investigate, wasting public resources?

what about innocent unless proven guilty?

 

[sunzoner]

haha, there u go, withou verify it is ok? so i can just hantam anyone? see? it works this way.

SMRT and SPF ask u to report unidentified packages as unidentified packages, did not ask u to report it as a bomb or a terrorist attack. u see the diff? what u are saying then, is that auditors should poke into everything, meaning SMRT asking the public to probe the unidentified packages. wow. then, what u are saying now is that u see discrepancies u simply report a fraud, a crime, real or not never mind. so which one are u at? how are u going to tackle the problem of ppl happily reporting anything and everything for the police to investigate, wasting public resources?

what about innocent unless proven guilty?

actaully what he is asking is for everyone to be checked to see if they carry a bomb.

Just like the IT guy is suppose to check every files on his client's Laptop/PC to see if there got child porn or other illegal stuff. And Auditors to check every transaction to see if it really happens or not.

100% checks, 100% of the time.

 

[ponpokku]

by the time the checking results came out, its 2 yrs late liao...

 

[alvinaloy]

It boils down to governance lah. Auditors are simply the hands and legs. They execute according to orders, policies and guidelines. It's the executives and board of directors who ensure that the orders, polices and guidelines are correct; that the auditors are looking in the right places and report the right things.

 

[NTB2DO]

This reminds me of this joke about accountant..

Divisional Manager Interview

A businessman was interviewing applicants for the position of divisional manager. He devised a simple test to select the most suitable person for the job. He asked each applicant the question, "What is two and two?"

The first interviewee was a journalist. His answer was "twenty-two."

The second applicant was an engineer. He pulled out a calculator and showed the answer to be between 3.999 and 4.001.

The next person was a lawyer. He stated that in the case of Jenkins v. Commr of Stamp Duties, two and two was proven to be four.

The last applicant was an accountant. The businessman asked him, "How much is two and two?"

The accountant got up from his chair, went over to the door, closed it then came back and sat down. He leaned across the desk and said in a low voice, "How much do you want it to be?"

He got the job.

 

[wallacetan]

Perhaps govt should hire more detectives (CAD)

So Who will watch the watchmen?
Hire more watches to watch the detectives?

 

[ponpokku]

So Who will watch the watchmen?
Hire more watches to watch the detectives?

in china, they wear 3 watches... 戴三个表, or more commonlu known as 三个代表...

but still cannot stop corruption...

 

[wahkao3]

good thread up for discussion