Web Framework discussions

Lasogette

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Recently had a few customized IT programs request from my friends, decided to look into frameworks such as ruby on rails, cakephp and django, and this MVC concept was so fast and easy to use. This thread is up for discussion for these sort of MVC frameworks as they seem to be the standard nowadays. Can discuss on your experience on it as well.
 

Lasogette

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Ruby on Rails

Let me start the ball rolling, my experience firstly was with ruby on rails. Did not have any knowledge in ruby however had a simple website which my friend wanted me to help him change abit of the layout. Had some simple HTML, javascript and asp.net knowledge and i was thinking at that point what could be so hard about it. Boy was I wrong. The MVC concept for a new beginner is difficult to understand if you are new to it. However when you become more well versed in it, it starts to sink in and you can't help but just follow this concept. Well for me the experience I got from ruby on rails
- If you dont have a Nix machine, you are going to get a hard time getting it to work in windows.
- Don't try implementing it on shared hosting, it is really too difficult, instead, go for cloud based hosting like heroku, they make it look like a breeze.

Just my 2 cents worth with my limited one week of using ROR. Welcome to all discussions.
 

davidktw

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Having that you have started. my first MVC is on Java platform working with servlets. No frameworks required, just plain JSP and servlet controllers back in the Uni days. Thinking back, still find it pretty much a norm even compared to doing it using Struts and Spring subsequently during my working days. Things just got more bloated and complicated as with Java development. Then came IoC with Spring together with MVC. Nowadays in Enterprise class applications, MVC is pretty much the norm.

As with most software development, having your own machine is always encouraged. These days, you can use a VM, host it via VPS or Cloud. The power of able to install your own tools to increase your efficiency and productivity is always the right way to go.

Never really hit the Rails since it doesn't attract me that much. In terms of MVC, I pretty much implemented it just about the same using Perl and PHP.

Just to add, nowadays MVC pretty much moved into the client side too. Along with the introduction of MVVM which you might want to look at too.
 
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saysuzu

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just started a php framework, known as laravel

same experience as you; want to cry when trying to use the framework initially; don't know what is this and what is that even after reading it

but after trying it out, it really saves you a lot of time

simply put, because my application interacts with database a lot with lots of different functionality, so if I use vanila PHP, i would have to write one DB query for every function (could generalize it but well i'm lazy to do that)

with laravel, you only need to use their query builder just to get the records out

and client side framework? tried ionic framework and angularjs, both are excellent but at the same time, they are too complex to learn

ionic framewrk is mostly for mobile, but then again, it's optmized for iOS rather than android

don't have a macbook so can't really do iOS
 

Lasogette

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Having that you have started. my first MVC is on Java platform working with servlets. No frameworks required, just plain JSP and servlet controllers back in the Uni days. Thinking back, still find it pretty much a norm even compared to doing it using Struts and Spring subsequently during my working days. Things just got more bloated and complicated as with Java development. Then came IoC with Spring together with MVC. Nowadays in Enterprise class applications, MVC is pretty much the norm.

As with most software development, having your own machine is always encouraged. These days, you can use a VM, host it via VPS or Cloud. The power of able to install your own tools to increase your efficiency and productivity is always the right way to go.

Never really hit the Rails since it doesn't attract me that much. In terms of MVC, I pretty much implemented it just about the same using Perl and PHP.

Just to add, nowadays MVC pretty much moved into the client side too. Along with the introduction of MVVM which you might want to look at too.

If i understood it correctly, you wrote your own MVC? Thats quite an accomplishment. :eek:
 

Lasogette

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Cake Php

Next framework I used for another app due to the fact that shared hosting did not really have very comprehensive support for Ruby or rails, I tried a framework called Cakephp. The concept was almost the same as ROR and I believe the file structure was also the same

Pros of Cakephp : Cakephp has a naming convention linking model with the controller and with the views as well, which meant that you just named it as per the convention and you will not even need to write codes to link them

Cake php has a command called bake which is a command prompt function that allows you to create these MVC automatically just by creating your database.This saves alot of time as it gets the skeleton out for you

follow this concept of DRY (Don't repeat yourself)

Cons : However Cakephp assumes you know that it is going to do the above and require you to have the correct spelling etc. This makes a new user have a very steep learning curve

The tutorials in the official website although works, is not really a plug and play model as you still have to adjust some stuff to make it work.

You may have issues trying to get simple stuff to work.

Overall still a good framework with lots of free tutorials and resource available.
Will be using this framework as abase for my future projects until i find something even better.:)
 

godchuanz

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Frameworks speed up your development time (once you get used to it) and enforce some good architectural patterns, but the biggest problem with them is that they are tightly coupled to your application. If you build a PHP server in CakePHP, you cannot one day decide that CakePHP is no-good and swap it out with Yii or Laravel. If the entire PHP community agrees on one single framework, and concentrate efforts to build one solid framework, sure... frameworks may work. But that looks unlikely for now...

A lot of people will disagree, but I think that if you want to build something of really good quality and maintainable in the long run, PHP frameworks are to be avoided. Even Rasmus Lerdorf, creator of PHP, mentioned that all PHP frameworks suck.

I think too many people hop onto the framework bandwagon just because it sounds like the latest way to do something. It becomes dogma, and MVC the buzzword... but we miss the point. It's really painful to see a lot of frameworks try to replicate the MVC architecture on the server-side, and complicating the entire application with large amounts of redundant code, unmaintainable class explosion, unnecessary technical complexity and sometimes even restrictions on the structure of client-side code (where the Vs reside).

Of course, frameworks are not totally worthless. Studying a few modern ones in detail and observing how each component interacts with another is a very good way to learn software architectural patterns and innovative ways of solving problems. But it's definitely not for the novice programmer. Critical thinking and understanding the intent of the creator is crucial to gleen the correct knowledge and avoiding dogma.
 

davidktw

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If i understood it correctly, you wrote your own MVC? Thats quite an accomplishment. :eek:

I think you are greatly mistaken between Web framework and MVC (Model-View-Controller) design pattern. There is nothing I have created to say I have implemented MVC using basic JSP, and writing servlet controller.

You don't need a web framework to accomplish MVC. You guys have been too used to frameworks and have lose sight for the basic concepts of MVC.

Let me try demystify what is MVC as much as I could, just in case you are still confused.

Model is Data. It doesn't need to be Java beans, it doesn't need to be complicated data-types. It definitely doesn't need to be fetched from the database or any other external storage resources. Just a simple integer created within the controller is data and hence the model. Model doesn't need to acquire any form of methods as found in an OOP. It is a good to have, but not necessary.

View is a mechanism to render for the client. The most basic form of a View is a HTML page. But HTML page is static and it is one form it will exist on the client end, but nothing says a View must be a HTML page. It can be a file of any type from an Image(PNG/JPEG/TIFF/BMP/...) to an audio file, a XML file, a JSON file and even another script file for download. That's the View. For server side to generate the view, we attach the idea of a View to components that generate it. In the case of Java, the JSP is normally taken as a View. Java Server Pages(JSP) are by themselves also Servlets. By default, they are dynamically compiled from JSPs into servlets before been run by the servlet container(I will explain servlet container later), or in production environment, statically compiled upon servlet container startup.

Now comes Controller. Controller is the heart of the whole MVC. It performs all the orchestration with respect to the Web Application. There can be more than one controller in large web application design. Multiple controllers can shares Views or have their own dedicated Views. They can also share Models or generate their own. For those that got use to the idea of a Router in the web frameworks. This is a special form of controller. It passes web request control from one controller to another controller. It is normally not found natively in some other languages such as PHP which requires a dedicated web framework router to do that. But it Java, the servlet container does the job of a router pretty well, although Struts and Spring framework attempt to provide the router job with more sophistication and complexity.

You may read of a slightly more complicated Java MVC found at http://www.java-programming.info/tutorial/pdf/csajsp2/14-MVC.pdf

But I can be simpler than that.

You just need the following
1) One JSP page
2) One Servlet

Done. It's MVC

I will try hands free write you a simple Hello World in MVC form
Code:
// ** HelloWorldController.java
// web.xml configured to map /helloworld to this servlet controller
// nowadays annotation can also be used
public class HelloWorldController extends HttpServlet {
  public void goGet(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse resp) {
    req.setAttribute("helloworldMsg", "Hello World");
    getServletContext().getRequestDispatcher("/helloworldView").forward(req, resq);
  }
}

// ** HelloWorldView.jsp
<html>
<body><%=${helloworldMsg}%></body>
</html>

Really MVC is that simple at its concept. Allow me to just explain a bit. The Controller is the servlet HelloWorldController.java. As the whole web application is running in a servlet container such as GlassFish(J2EE), Tomcat(J2SE), JBoss and so forth

Using XML(normally) configuration, you can map a web application path to the servlet controller in this case /helloworld

The servlet container will play the role of a Router since it route web requests. In this case, the first web request hit the servlet controller what happened ?

The Model is created. It is the simple HelloWorld message that is contained in an attribute called "helloworldMsg". The scope of this attribute only exist for this web request. When the web request lifecycle ends, the attribute vanishes into thin air.

How do I pass the Model to the View ? I uses the Request Dispatcher found in all servlet container under the Servlet Context. I request the RequestDispatcher to find me the JSP view, and since the attribute(Model) is already attached to the Request. The RequestDispatcher will hence pass this to the JSP view in which manner ? There are 2 ways to pass a request to another servlet, either forward or include. I don't want to explain too much, just say you can take forward like simulating another web request get initiated from the browser, except it doesn't and it is all happening within the servlet container. It is like a traffic police man ask you go back to the starting point and run your whole journey again, except one difference. You have a baggage now. The baggage is a piece of data (summon) given to you and you run the whole course again, but this time you are redirected to the Court instead of anywhere else.

The web request this time hit the HellowWorldView.jsp. The JSP is itself a very powerful template engine. Even if you don't use things like Velocity or HTMLTemplate or other forms of template engine, it can already be dynamically expressive.

Using JSP ETL, you can fetch attributes from various scopes in a certain order. Eventually the web scope is traversed and the "helloworldMsg" attribute is fetched and rendered into the HTML output.

The HTML output is then returned back to the browser, escape from the servlet container and get rendered on your display.

I hope the explanation of MVC is clear enough. So clearly there is nothing for me to create. It's all there from day One. :)

Using multiple PHP pages, multiple Perl pages or with the use of ModPerl in Apache, internal redirection can be easily achieved to create MVC. The mode of redirecting internally is not the only option of MVC. you can use HTTP redirection, passing information via a POST form, a URL query string that requires the browse to perform as part of MVC. There is nothing in the MVC design pattern that dictate the whole involvement must exclude the User Agent, in this case the browser.
 
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davidktw

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Frameworks speed up your development time (once you get used to it) and enforce some good architectural patterns, but the biggest problem with them is that they are tightly coupled to your application. If you build a PHP server in CakePHP, you cannot one day decide that CakePHP is no-good and swap it out with Yii or Laravel. If the entire PHP community agrees on one single framework, and concentrate efforts to build one solid framework, sure... frameworks may work. But that looks unlikely for now...

A lot of people will disagree, but I think that if you want to build something of really good quality and maintainable in the long run, PHP frameworks are to be avoided. Even Rasmus Lerdorf, creator of PHP, mentioned that all PHP frameworks suck.

I think too many people hop onto the framework bandwagon just because it sounds like the latest way to do something. It becomes dogma, and MVC the buzzword... but we miss the point. It's really painful to see a lot of frameworks try to replicate the MVC architecture on the server-side, and complicating the entire application with large amounts of redundant code, unmaintainable class explosion, unnecessary technical complexity and sometimes even restrictions on the structure of client-side code (where the Vs reside).

Of course, frameworks are not totally worthless. Studying a few modern ones in detail and observing how each component interacts with another is a very good way to learn software architectural patterns and innovative ways of solving problems. But it's definitely not for the novice programmer. Critical thinking and understanding the intent of the creator is crucial to gleen the correct knowledge and avoiding dogma.

I don't agree that web frameworks are hinderance to work or should be discouraged. What difference will one be from the yet-another-web-framework creator if one do it yet another way to get one's complicated web application together.

One have to consider things from multiple facets. While Rasmus Lerdorf, as claimed, he mentioned PHP frameworks suck, would he be referring to the quality of the frameworks instead of the value of having one ?

True enough that whichever framework you have chosen for a project and it must stick to, but that doesn't mean you can't move away. It takes effort to move away because the stickiness of a web framework is exactly why you need it. It is suppose to offer convenience in certain way that helps in your project development and consistency. It is suppose to be a one stop framework to allow you to reach out to other components in an unspoken manner. If you are not using web frameworks in this manner, then you probably don't need it. If you have to re-create one for yourself, you better be sure you also train the rest of the group of developers you work with it as proficiently the way you have created it.

When you create yet another framework, it's not as if you can just ask a newbie, go google for it and study it, or go get a book on XYZ framework, and you expect him/her to studiously study it and hopefully he gain some 10% knowledge of it. You better have an extensive documentation for him/her or you have 100% time to handhold him into every details on how you design your 200 components large scale web application, how to pass message from one component to another, how to add the 201 component and still the whole thing gel together and how it all works.

Creativity comes from understanding. I would daringly put this across in your situation. "If you don't understand the philosophy behind Music, it doesn't matter if you master all the musical notes and all possible instruments that makes sound. There wouldn't be a beautiful piece of work". I thought you would understand this message pretty well :)
Likewise besides knowing about a web framework, there is a compelling need to know how it works and why it works. That's how something can grow out of what it's only envisioned for by its creator and very often in our line of work, we need to innovate even on the very tool given to us.

Good quality works are not limited to frameworks. You can have the best framework or created your own best method of how to gel a large web application together and still your work sucks because the project is badly managed, or the features are badly implemented or the requirements are not properly gathered. So I don't find the reason of good quality works as a direct result of choosing a good web framework. So many things can go wrong in a badly managed project.

Why people jump into the wagon is one thing, why you need the wagon is another thing. You can't call a Ferrari useless because most rich people just wanted a fast car running in Singapore road full of traffic lights, when it was designed to be on the race track beating records. If anyone missed the point of having a web framework, it's not the fault of a web framework. To put things into perspective, the complexity of an existing web framework may very well be re-created with your own doings when you didn't adopt one. It's just one complexity in exchange for another. This is something a software architect will need to review and decide if it is necessary to employ a sophisticated framework. Sometimes it is a necessary evil since everyone is proficient in it, why not ? Why create yet another one and re-create the whole learning process again. There is a balance to seek between technical values and business values. This is the real world we are living in and matters like these need to be addressed.

I would just say that know your tools and work with your tools appropriately. It is not the tool fault when you fail to weld it properly, it's the master incapability to identify the right tool for the right job.
 
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ykgoh

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EpfbTzf.jpg

Too many open source frameworks in PHP, all doing the same thing. Dunno which one is good, gave up trying to select and rely on one. :(

Then sometimes different version may not ensure backward compatibility, or the framework creator disappears after releasing 1 or 2 versions. :(

The whole point of using framework is for large and complicated applications that are expected to last for years to minimize maintenance or rework. However, many frameworks are written by lone rangers who adopts a hit-and-run strategy with zero commitment. Release one version and disappear. Basing any application on their frameworks is a risk.
 

Lasogette

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I think you are greatly mistaken between Web framework and MVC (Model-View-Controller) design pattern. There is nothing I have created to say I have implemented MVC using basic JSP, and writing servlet controller.

You don't need a web framework to accomplish MVC. You guys have been too used to frameworks and have lose sight for the basic concepts of MVC.

Let me try demystify what is MVC as much as I could, just in case you are still confused.

Model is Data. It doesn't need to be Java beans, it doesn't need to be complicated data-types. It definitely doesn't need to be fetched from the database or any other external storage resources. Just a simple integer created within the controller is data and hence the model. Model doesn't need to acquire any form of methods as found in an OOP. It is a good to have, but not necessary.

View is a mechanism to render for the client. The most basic form of a View is a HTML page. But HTML page is static and it is one form it will exist on the client end, but nothing says a View must be a HTML page. It can be a file of any type from an Image(PNG/JPEG/TIFF/BMP/...) to an audio file, a XML file, a JSON file and even another script file for download. That's the View. For server side to generate the view, we attach the idea of a View to components that generate it. In the case of Java, the JSP is normally taken as a View. Java Server Pages(JSP) are by themselves also Servlets. By default, they are dynamically compiled from JSPs into servlets before been run by the servlet container(I will explain servlet container later), or in production environment, statically compiled upon servlet container startup.

Now comes Controller. Controller is the heart of the whole MVC. It performs all the orchestration with respect to the Web Application. There can be more than one controller in large web application design. Multiple controllers can shares Views or have their own dedicated Views. They can also share Models or generate their own. For those that got use to the idea of a Router in the web frameworks. This is a special form of controller. It passes web request control from one controller to another controller. It is normally not found natively in some other languages such as PHP which requires a dedicated web framework router to do that. But it Java, the servlet container does the job of a router pretty well, although Struts and Spring framework attempt to provide the router job with more sophistication and complexity.

You may read of a slightly more complicated Java MVC found at http://www.java-programming.info/tutorial/pdf/csajsp2/14-MVC.pdf

But I can be simpler than that.

You just need the following
1) One JSP page
2) One Servlet

Done. It's MVC

I will try hands free write you a simple Hello World in MVC form
Code:
// ** HelloWorldController.java
// web.xml configured to map /helloworld to this servlet controller
// nowadays annotation can also be used
public class HelloWorldController extends HttpServlet {
  public void goGet(HttpServletRequest req, HttpServletResponse resp) {
    req.setAttribute("helloworldMsg", "Hello World");
    getServletContext().getRequestDispatcher("/helloworldView").forward(req, resq);
  }
}

// ** HelloWorldView.jsp
<html>
<body><%=${helloworldMsg}%></body>
</html>

Really MVC is that simple at its concept. Allow me to just explain a bit. The Controller is the servlet HelloWorldController.java. As the whole web application is running in a servlet container such as GlassFish(J2EE), Tomcat(J2SE), JBoss and so forth

Using XML(normally) configuration, you can map a web application path to the servlet controller in this case /helloworld

The servlet container will play the role of a Router since it route web requests. In this case, the first web request hit the servlet controller what happened ?

The Model is created. It is the simple HelloWorld message that is contained in an attribute called "helloworldMsg". The scope of this attribute only exist for this web request. When the web request lifecycle ends, the attribute vanishes into thin air.

How do I pass the Model to the View ? I uses the Request Dispatcher found in all servlet container under the Servlet Context. I request the RequestDispatcher to find me the JSP view, and since the attribute(Model) is already attached to the Request. The RequestDispatcher will hence pass this to the JSP view in which manner ? There are 2 ways to pass a request to another servlet, either forward or include. I don't want to explain too much, just say you can take forward like simulating another web request get initiated from the browser, except it doesn't and it is all happening within the servlet container. It is like a traffic police man ask you go back to the starting point and run your whole journey again, except one difference. You have a baggage now. The baggage is a piece of data (summon) given to you and you run the whole course again, but this time you are redirected to the Court instead of anywhere else.

The web request this time hit the HellowWorldView.jsp. The JSP is itself a very powerful template engine. Even if you don't use things like Velocity or HTMLTemplate or other forms of template engine, it can already be dynamically expressive.

Using JSP ETL, you can fetch attributes from various scopes in a certain order. Eventually the web scope is traversed and the "helloworldMsg" attribute is fetched and rendered into the HTML output.

The HTML output is then returned back to the browser, escape from the servlet container and get rendered on your display.

I hope the explanation of MVC is clear enough. So clearly there is nothing for me to create. It's all there from day One. :)

Using multiple PHP pages, multiple Perl pages or with the use of ModPerl in Apache, internal redirection can be easily achieved to create MVC. The mode of redirecting internally is not the only option of MVC. you can use HTTP redirection, passing information via a POST form, a URL query string that requires the browse to perform as part of MVC. There is nothing in the MVC design pattern that dictate the whole involvement must exclude the User Agent, in this case the browser.

Thanks for you inputs. Really appreciate it. I guess i really am confused over mvc and frameworks. I thought frameworks were used to do MVC. Sometimes I felt too much jargons in the IT sector which leads to different people have different meaning of what it means. I will readup more on MVC frame works as well. thanks alot.
 

AnimeNewbie

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Coding in plain PHP has its danger for newbies. Some frameworks prevent XSS by encoding the output automatically and also prevent CSRF by injecting random token without the programmer having to do anything.

As others have mentioned here, the drawbacks of PHP frameworks, is there is no de-facto one. In one company, they might be using 2 - 3 frameworks for their different websites. Imagine moving to a new company may requires learning new frameworks.
 

saysuzu

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thats why don't waste time on PHP and go ruby on rails instead
 

godchuanz

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I would just say that know your tools and work with your tools appropriately. It is not the tool fault when you fail to weld it properly, it's the master incapability to identify the right tool for the right job.

Hi davidktw, I agree with you on many points, especially this one :)

Although I must clarify that my point is not that frameworks are useless, but exactly as you said: many people miss the point. Frameworks have their use, just that people should really understand what they are getting themselves into, rather than blindly follow the masses. This is especially the case for PHP folks, where there are so many frameworks.

For reading pleasure, here's a link to Rasmus and his controversial statement (which I happen to agree with):
4 Reasons Why All PHP Frameworks Suck? - PHP Classes blog - PHP Classes
 

godchuanz

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thats why don't waste time on PHP and go ruby on rails instead

With this statement, you're gonna piss off many devout PHP fans. :D

But anyway, I think this is a personal preference. PHP, Python, Ruby, .NET or Java... it's not the big issue. The most important thing is whether the programmer understands the tools he uses. :)
 

saysuzu

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With this statement, you're gonna piss off many devout PHP fans. :D

But anyway, I think this is a personal preference. PHP, Python, Ruby, .NET or Java... it's not the big issue. The most important thing is whether the programmer understands the tools he uses. :)

i'm also a PHP developers, and still am

but the thing, seriously there's too many framework for PHP...hard to judge which one is good unless you really have the time to go read all of it
 

davidktw

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i'm also a PHP developers, and still am

but the thing, seriously there's too many framework for PHP...hard to judge which one is good unless you really have the time to go read all of it

Just because it is hard for some to find out which PHP framework make sense for them and therefore one should give it PHP a miss? That is really a new school of thought...
 

davidktw

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Coding in plain PHP has its danger for newbies. Some frameworks prevent XSS by encoding the output automatically and also prevent CSRF by injecting random token without the programmer having to do anything.

As others have mentioned here, the drawbacks of PHP frameworks, is there is no de-facto one. In one company, they might be using 2 - 3 frameworks for their different websites. Imagine moving to a new company may requires learning new frameworks.

Those vulnerabilities are not limited to PHP only, and no developer in their right mind should use framework as the means to avoid such mistakes. If it is there good for you, if it is not there then be aware of them. What you have listed probably just touches the tip of the iceberg when talking about web vulnerabilities.

Any other languages just have their own share of web frameworks in their backyard, so how is this something that is limited to PHP only?

What does learning a framework has to do with changing company? Do you mean if you don't learn one, the next company you go to will not have one?
 

Lasogette

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Currently in the process of creating a web app using cakephp for my friend's company so far other than the learning curve, i think its a great framework for starting on a simple application that just does simple inventory management.
 

Lasogette

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i'm also a PHP developers, and still am

but the thing, seriously there's too many framework for PHP...hard to judge which one is good unless you really have the time to go read all of it

Which is why this thread is setup :). Hope everyone who uses frameworks and MVC can join in to contribute their experience.
 
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