Whats wrong with double NAT

katata

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Hi All, so i've read about singtel ONR double NATing issue and I realised that I've been double NATing for the past 1 year. Question is, is it really that bad to have a private network within a private network? Network has been stable for me. From what I've gathered online it only becomes an issue with UPNP and maybe VPN? portforwarding and some online games that use P2P connections. Although not many games continue to do P2P anymore. My singtel contract has expired and since we are shifting house, we are relocating it to the new home.

Alternatively, we could sign up for a new plan. Starhub seems to offer an equivalent 500mbps with the same price. M1 does as well, but once you factor in their installation charges, fibre registration charges, etc it becomes more expensive.
 

xiaofan

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Hi All, so i've read about singtel ONR double NATing issue and I realised that I've been double NATing for the past 1 year. Question is, is it really that bad to have a private network within a private network? Network has been stable for me. From what I've gathered online it only becomes an issue with UPNP and maybe VPN? portforwarding and some online games that use P2P connections. Although not many games continue to do P2P anymore. My singtel contract has expired and since we are shifting house, we are relocating it to the new home.
Alternatively, we could sign up for a new plan. Starhub seems to offer an equivalent 500mbps with the same price. M1 does as well, but once you factor in their installation charges, fibre registration charges, etc it becomes more expensive.

What is your particular SingTel plan? Usually SingTel does not offer 500Mbps plan to new users.

As for Double NAT, are you sure you are using a Singtel ONR (Nokia and Huawei brand)? Take note ZTE is configured as an ONT despite being labeled as an ONR.

And you have indeed running Double NAT for one year without issues, then your use cases are not affected. So you can continue using Singtel in this case.

More about Double NAT:
https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/6277579?hl=en-SG#what-is-double-nat
https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-double-NAT-and-why-is-it-bad
 

pwongkk

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What is your particular SingTel plan? Usually SingTel does not offer 500Mbps plan to new users.

As for Double NAT, are you sure you are using a Singtel ONR (Nokia and Huawei brand)? Take note ZTE is configured as an ONT despite being labeled as an ONR.

And you have indeed running Double NAT for one year without issues, then your use cases are not affected. So you can continue using Singtel in this case.

More about Double NAT:
https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/6277579?hl=en-SG#what-is-double-nat
https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-double-NAT-and-why-is-it-bad
I do double nating without any issues. To allow it to reach the other private network, I configured a gateway on the main router to reach it.
 

abstrax

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I do double nating without any issues. To allow it to reach the other private network, I configured a gateway on the main router to reach it.
U will have 2sets of IP address and if u dun use any IP cams, den it will be easier to configure.

I try b4 too but give up as my IP cams keep give me pbm : undetectable thru WAN IP.
 

pwongkk

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U will have 2sets of IP address and if u dun use any IP cams, den it will be easier to configure.

I try b4 too but give up as my IP cams keep give me pbm : undetectable thru WAN IP.
My IP cams on another network that is not accessible to the Ineternet. To view the cams, I'll vpn in.

Safer this way in case the cams have backdoor access.
 

bert64

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Hi All, so i've read about singtel ONR double NATing issue and I realised that I've been double NATing for the past 1 year. Question is, is it really that bad to have a private network within a private network? Network has been stable for me. From what I've gathered online it only becomes an issue with UPNP and maybe VPN? portforwarding and some online games that use P2P connections. Although not many games continue to do P2P anymore. My singtel contract has expired and since we are shifting house, we are relocating it to the new home.

Alternatively, we could sign up for a new plan. Starhub seems to offer an equivalent 500mbps with the same price. M1 does as well, but once you factor in their installation charges, fibre registration charges, etc it becomes more expensive.

NAT causes a performance bottleneck and breaks certain applications. There are workarounds for some of the broken things (eg UPNP, port forwarding etc) which often only work through a single layer of NAT.
A lot of things work better without NAT, but will transparently degrade in the presence of NAT so the user is less likely to notice - ie things will still work, but performance will be degraded. Things like p2p applications (gaming, voice/video calling, torrents etc) often fit into this category.

Widespread use of NAT also stifles innovation, for instance there are a LOT more protocols than just TCP/UDP, but they are rarely used because whereas a normal router does not care about higher level protocols, a NAT gateway will only forward protocols it has explicit support for. For instance there is a protocol called SCTP which unlike TCP has support for native multi pathing (ie using 2 connections at once, aggregating the throughput and transparently continuing to work if one fails - think of a mobile phone with both wifi and mobile data).

In general NAT is not something you want, it's something you are forced to live with because you don't have enough IP addresses to give one to each device. That's why NAT is almost never used with IPv6, it's technically possible but since it isn't necessary you'd only experience the negatives.
 

katata

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What is your particular SingTel plan? Usually SingTel does not offer 500Mbps plan to new users.

As for Double NAT, are you sure you are using a Singtel ONR (Nokia and Huawei brand)? Take note ZTE is configured as an ONT despite being labeled as an ONR.

And you have indeed running Double NAT for one year without issues, then your use cases are not affected. So you can continue using Singtel in this case.

More about Double NAT:
https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/6277579?hl=en-SG#what-is-double-nat
https://kb.netgear.com/30186/What-is-double-NAT-and-why-is-it-bad
Its a legacy plan i'm just relocating it over to my new house. Thanks all for the links and responses. I suppose its not possible to login to the ONR and set it as Bridge mode? I did see an option there
 

xiaofan

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Its a legacy plan i'm just relocating it over to my new house. Thanks all for the links and responses. I suppose its not possible to login to the ONR and set it as Bridge mode? I did see an option there

I see. Unfortunately even for legacy plan (eg: 500Mbps plans), they will still change your ONT to ONR.

As for manually bridging your ONR, I will not recommend that since Singtel can reset the configuration any time and make you lose Internet. But I will not stop you if you want to take the risks,
 

katata

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Hey guys, i checked the ONR, and it shows this setting. Even though everything is greyed out, it shows Bridge for port 4. I tried to configure my router as default mode on this port 4 but it doesnt work, i have to do it as AP. I wonder if singtel push LAN port 4 bridge as meant for the Mio TV and thats why its not working for the router?


 

xiaofan

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Hey guys, i checked the ONR, and it shows this setting. Even though everything is greyed out, it shows Bridge for port 4. I tried to configure my router as default mode on this port 4 but it doesnt work, i have to do it as AP. I wonder if singtel push LAN port 4 bridge as meant for the Mio TV and thats why its not working for the router?



I do not think so. Probably this page is already disabled and does not reflect the real configuration at all.

Which Singtel plan are you using? Which model of ONR?

For SIngtel ONR, there is no such thing as only LAN Port 4 for Singtel TV box -- all 4 ports will work for SIngtel TV if you are using the 1Gbps or 2Gbps plan. For 1+1 Gamer Plan, LAN Port 4 is bridged and that is for use with the RT-AX86U router and it is not possible to connect Singtel TV to the bridged port.
 

katata

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ah... well that makes sense. Sian i thought i got lucky haha. I'm using an old singtel plan that is no longer available. its the 500mbps one with nokia ONR. The singtel network technician did tell me that the bridging is only available on the gamer plans now.
 

xiaofan

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ah... well that makes sense. Sian i thought i got lucky haha. I'm using an old singtel plan that is no longer available. its the 500mbps one with nokia ONR. The singtel network technician did tell me that the bridging is only available on the gamer plans now.

As far as I know, there is no way to bridge the Nokia ONR by yourself.

And you are right, the only official way to have a bridged Singtel ONR is to go with 1+1 Gamer Plan.

For existing bridged Singtel ONR users, they may still get the chance to negotiate with Singtel to keep the bridged ONR.
 
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