Which MBA?

[dareaper]

Isn't that my point? top students from a tier2 uni(do you consider NTU tier 2? no pun intended) who could make it into the MA position are not considered for mckinsey analyst position. However, leaving the exceptionally talented and gifted aside, I do not see a distant gap of qualities(IQ, EQ, tenacity etc) btw the normal MBB hires and a top student from tier2 uni. I come from a top jc and many of my peers graduated with 1:1/summa cum laude from top universities and in comparison, at least during JC, I'm certainly not inferior. Thus, I feel that I'm discriminated with my choice of uni rather than my capabilities, and I hope to correct that with a MSc & gd results from a top uni. Do you think I will be able to achieve that?

Well, there's a reason for not considering MBA. Currently, my working experience(less than 4years) do not qualify me to be considered as an associate but rather as an analyst. Gd thing is that I will be considered separately from top B-schs MBA holders. Thus, my reason for applying MSOR and MS&E and not waiting for an MBA.

Hsieh Tsun-Yan is truly an exceptional person but I would say that the larger part of his success is due to his excellent A lvl and uni results. I'm certainly not saying that I am of his calibre but my point is if I could correct the discrimination of being in a lower ranking university, I could potentially go higher than what I'm doing now.

I thank you for your reply. Please give me your most honest view.

It is a sad but true fact that it is easier for the MC to charge their ridiculously high price because their consultants are from top schools, which people will automatically associate with intelligence and ability compared to xyz uni that they have never heard of. It makes sales a lot easier. Given that they have a huge pool of applicants to choose from, it's a no brainer for them to get the all-in-one package unless the applicant is godlike in other aspects.

Actually with a MSc, you will be completing with undergraduates for the analyst positions for most MC firms. Not sure if this is easier than competing with the MBAs since MC firms don't really care which major the undergrad is doing (ie much more competition by volume) as long as the school is prestigious and the undergrad is smart.

 

[alxa123]

It is a sad but true fact that it is easier for the MC to charge their ridiculously high price because their consultants are from top schools, which people will automatically associate with intelligence and ability compared to xyz uni that they have never heard of. It makes sales a lot easier. Given that they have a huge pool of applicants to choose from, it's a no brainer for them to get the all-in-one package unless the applicant is godlike in other aspects.

Actually with a MSc, you will be completing with undergraduates for the analyst positions for most MC firms. Not sure if this is easier than competing with the MBAs since MC firms don't really care which major the undergrad is doing (ie much more competition by volume) as long as the school is prestigious and the undergrad is smart.

true that. Awy, I see that you are in MS&E, do you mind if i PM you with a few questions about the course?

Yah but I think the chances r higher when

MSc(top school) + a ntu B.eng 1:1 + 2 yrs of govt job experience(policy work) > fresh grad of 1:1(top sch)

as to

MBA(top 5-10?) + a ntu B.eng 1:1 + 4 yrs of govt job experience(policy work) < a top 5 sch MBA, 1:1 top undergraduate degree, with 4 years of very relevant working experience (IB/MC)?

 

[lee_tired_sheep]

Isn't that my point? top students from a tier2 uni(do you consider NTU tier 2? no pun intended) who could make it into the MA position are not considered for mckinsey analyst position. However, leaving the exceptionally talented and gifted aside, I do not see a distant gap of qualities(IQ, EQ, tenacity etc) btw the normal MBB hires and a top student from tier2 uni. I come from a top jc and many of my peers graduated with 1:1/summa cum laude from top universities and in comparison, at least during JC, I'm certainly not inferior. Thus, I feel that I'm discriminated with my choice of uni rather than my capabilities, and I hope to correct that with a MSc & gd results from a top uni. Do you think I will be able to achieve that?

Well, there's a reason for not considering MBA. Currently, my working experience(less than 4years) do not qualify me to be considered as an associate but rather as an analyst. Gd thing is that I will be considered separately from top B-schs MBA holders. Thus, my reason for applying MSOR and MS&E and not waiting for an MBA.

Hsieh Tsun-Yan is truly an exceptional person but I would say that the larger part of his success is due to his excellent A lvl and uni results. I'm certainly not saying that I am of his calibre but my point is if I could correct the discrimination of being in a lower ranking university, I could potentially go higher than what I'm doing now.

I thank you for your reply. Please give me your most honest view.

If you can be penalized for a mistake on an exam, what can't you be penalized for a mistake in school choice?

Anw I don't understand your logic - there are as many competitive applicants at analyst level as there are at associate.

 

[dareaper]

true that. Awy, I see that you are in MS&E, do you mind if i PM you with a few questions about the course?

Yah but I think the chances r higher when

MSc(top school) + a ntu B.eng 1:1 + 2 yrs of govt job experience(policy work) > fresh grad of 1:1(top sch)

as to

MBA(top 5-10?) + a ntu B.eng 1:1 + 4 yrs of govt job experience(policy work) < a top 5 sch MBA, 1:1 top undergraduate degree, with 4 years of very relevant working experience (IB/MC)?

go ahead and ask, but I am just doing the MSc remotely in Singapore

yeah, though a lot of fresh grads do co-term for a MSc also, so you are competing with fresh grad with MSc(top school) + 1:1 BA/BS(top school) too. But these are less important than acing the case interviews i think.

 

[alxa123]

If you can be penalized for a mistake on an exam, what can't you be penalized for a mistake in school choice?

Anw I don't understand your logic - there are as many competitive applicants at analyst level as there are at associate.

no doubt and I agree on that but the question now is whether do you think I can correct/salvage that mistake based on my strategy?

I'm not saying that the competition is lessen. but rather because of the differences in opportunities given to me and a top ivy sch student, our resumes will have a serious mismatch(differences in quality) when I'm considered for an associate position. As many have observed, the differences only seem to amplify exponentially. This is prob why career change are a lot harder at an older age.

 

[alxa123]

go ahead and ask, but I am just doing the MSc remotely in Singapore

yeah, though a lot of fresh grads do co-term for a MSc also, so you are competing with fresh grad with MSc(top school) + 1:1 BA/BS(top school) too. But these are less important than acing the case interviews i think.

Thanks, let me consolidate my questions! It's after all the same certificate Yah, I'm just hoping that I will be treated equally w/o the discrimination of school rankings. I understand that ultimately, it's still the interview that matters.

 

[lee_tired_sheep]

no doubt and I agree on that but the question now is whether do you think I can correct/salvage that mistake based on my strategy?

I'm not saying that the competition is lessen. but rather because of the differences in opportunities given to me and a top ivy sch student, our resumes will have a serious mismatch(differences in quality) when I'm considered for an associate position. As many have observed, the differences only seem to amplify exponentially. This is prob why career change are a lot harder at an older age.

No... the mba is a reset/rebrand button. Msc does that to a lesser extent because many msc programs are much much easier to enter than undergrad. At the end of the day, like I've mentioned many times on this thread, it's the selectivity of the program that matters.

 

[alxa123]

No... the mba is a reset/rebrand button. Msc does that to a lesser extent because many msc programs are much much easier to enter than undergrad. At the end of the day, like I've mentioned many times on this thread, it's the selectivity of the program that matters.

Thanks. In yr opinion, other than MBA, are there any MSc that are exclusive? Actually, I do have another option which is a phd from MIT (eng) which would fulfill yr criteria of being selective but that would take another 5-6 years. 2 if I drop out after getting a MEng. However, I'm pretty sick of engineering and I would rather pay to study something other than eng.

 

[lee_tired_sheep]

MIT MFin is solid, as is Princeton's. LSE A&F is good too. Just search for the programs with the highest avg gmat/gre scores.

 

[XiiaoJinx]

Isn't that my point? top students from a tier2 uni(do you consider NTU tier 2? no pun intended) who could make it into the MA position are not considered for mckinsey analyst position. However, leaving the exceptionally talented and gifted aside, I do not see a distant gap of qualities(IQ, EQ, tenacity etc) btw the normal MBB hires and a top student from tier2 uni. I come from a top jc and many of my peers graduated with 1:1/summa cum laude from top universities and in comparison, at least during JC, I'm certainly not inferior. Thus, I feel that I'm discriminated with my choice of uni rather than my capabilities, and I hope to correct that with a MSc & gd results from a top uni. Do you think I will be able to achieve that?

Well, there's a reason for not considering MBA. Currently, my working experience(less than 4years) do not qualify me to be considered as an associate but rather as an analyst. Gd thing is that I will be considered separately from top B-schs MBA holders. Thus, my reason for applying MSOR and MS&E and not waiting for an MBA.

Hsieh Tsun-Yan is truly an exceptional person but I would say that the larger part of his success is due to his excellent A lvl and uni results. I'm certainly not saying that I am of his calibre but my point is if I could correct the discrimination of being in a lower ranking university, I could potentially go higher than what I'm doing now.

I thank you for your reply. Please give me your most honest view.

With regard to your first point, simply yes, through and though no fault of your own, you will be discriminated against by your choice of undergraduate institution. Assuming that cost was your decision factor for your choice of local undergraduate over overseas, for you see, the calibre of the people that McKinsey itself desires are exactly those that get bond-free scholarships to HYPSM (I am sure coming from a top JC that you are aware of the fact the top ivies are need-blind). Again, I sense a slight misunderstanding of what McKinsey is looking for (please don't take offense) - they are looking for the Harvard guy who got a need-blind scholarship to study there because the Harvard admissions tutors wanted to teach him whatever it cost them. Not only that, this guy has to have outstanding interpersonal skills and an analytical mind that surpasses that of his class in Harvard. That is the analyst McKinsey is looking out for.

Sure, like I mentioned before, a MSc from a top uni is definitely commendable, but you should probably take note of two points:

1) Breaking into MBB is NOT guaranteed, it largely depends on your work experience and undergraduate pedigree. It would be pointless to say 'a MSc from Stanford could 'cover' a Bachelors from NTU, but not a Bachelors from SIM', for example - such comparisons are at best meaningless, and at worst abstruse with the effect of obscuring the true factors at work here.

2) Should you decide that Strategy MC is your lifelong career path, rising to a senior role is not as easy as gaining experience and rising the ranks along with age, as is the case in a majority of other industries. Within MC comes a string of other factors, including your client turnover, peer appraisals, 'knowledge creation' and other factors that MBB value highly. (which Mr Hsieh no doubt demonstrated by his varying achievements from academia to policy work) I find career progression particularly important because any high-achieving individual (which you seem to be) would want to rise to the very top of his profession. The point is that this, unfortunately, is significantly harder in MBB unless you are confident that you are the very top of the global pool of talent (the calibre of Mr Hsieh and his mentors perhaps). Many disgruntled analysts find this 'glass ceiling' after working in MC for a few years, and most eventually change industries altogether.

 

[lee_tired_sheep]

With regard to your first point, simply yes, through and though no fault of your own, you will be discriminated against by your choice of undergraduate institution. Assuming that cost was your decision factor for your choice of local undergraduate over overseas, for you see, the calibre of the people that McKinsey itself desires are exactly those that get bond-free scholarships to HYPSM (I am sure coming from a top JC that you are aware of the fact the top ivies are need-blind). Again, I sense a slight misunderstanding of what McKinsey is looking for (please don't take offense) - they are looking for the Harvard guy who got a need-blind scholarship to study there because the Harvard admissions tutors wanted to teach him whatever it cost them. Not only that, this guy has to have outstanding interpersonal skills and an analytical mind that surpasses that of his class in Harvard. That is the analyst McKinsey is looking out for.

Sure, like I mentioned before, a MSc from a top uni is definitely commendable, but you should probably take note of two points:

1) Breaking into MBB is NOT guaranteed, it largely depends on your work experience and undergraduate pedigree. It would be pointless to say 'a MSc from Stanford could 'cover' a Bachelors from NTU, but not a Bachelors from SIM', for example - such comparisons are at best meaningless, and at worst abstruse with the effect of obscuring the true factors at work here.

2) Should you decide that Strategy MC is your lifelong career path, rising to a senior role is not as easy as gaining experience and rising the ranks along with age, as is the case in a majority of other industries. Within MC comes a string of other factors, including your client turnover, peer appraisals, 'knowledge creation' and other factors that MBB value highly. (which Mr Hsieh no doubt demonstrated by his varying achievements from academia to policy work) I find career progression particularly important because any high-achieving individual (which you seem to be) would want to rise to the very top of his profession. The point is that this, unfortunately, is significantly harder in MBB unless you are confident that you are the very top of the global pool of talent (the calibre of Mr Hsieh and his mentors perhaps). Many disgruntled analysts find this 'glass ceiling' after working in MC for a few years, and most eventually change industries altogether.

all good points, but one minor correction. these days, the top analysts and associates often move to the buy side, rather than rise up the ranks. also, there are a myriad of personal factors at play - most importantly whether one wants to be on the road 4-5 days a week when raising a family.

 

[alxa123]

Thanks XiiaoJinx & lee_tired_sheep. Mayb I will consider a MBA. Regardless, let me clarify that I'm not expecting any grad study to guarantee me a placement into MBB or to a MC job, I understand that are a multitude of others factors.

 

[FrostWurm]

I come from a top jc and many of my peers graduated with 1:1/summa cum laude from top universities and in comparison, at least during JC, I'm certainly not inferior. Thus, I feel that I'm discriminated with my choice of uni rather than my capabilities, and I hope to correct that with a MSc & gd results from a top uni. Do you think I will be able to achieve that?

You state that you are from a "top jc", yet chose to do a Beng degree at NTU on scholarship. That is a really bizarre choice.

Not only is NTU lower-ranked than the ivies/oxbridge, it is even ranked lower than NUS. In fact, NUS engineering outranks NTU in every single specialisation. And we know how easy it is to get into NTU engine compared to NUS (and even when compared to other NTU courses like business).

Guess you really do need the Master's degree if you want a reset

 

[alxa123]

You state that you are from a "top jc", yet chose to do a Beng degree at NTU on scholarship. That is a really bizarre choice.

Not only is NTU lower-ranked than the ivies/oxbridge, it is even ranked lower than NUS. In fact, NUS engineering outranks NTU in every single specialisation. And we know how easy it is to get into NTU engine compared to NUS (and even when compared to other NTU courses like business).

Guess you really do need the Master's degree if you want a reset

Nothing bizarre. Personal choice. NUS is better ranked because it's more established. I've attended both due to SUSEP and I can tell you NTU is way more comfortable for an undergraduate. Recognition wise, they are the same for most Spore employers. So why not?

 

[FrostWurm]

Nothing bizarre. Personal choice. NUS is better ranked because it's more established. I've attended both due to SUSEP and I can tell you NTU is way more comfortable for an undergraduate. Recognition wise, they are the same for most Spore employers. So why not?

Perhaps...but I'm pretty sure more employers overseas would have heard of NUS compared to NTU(which incidentally shares the same initials as National Taiwan University)

 

[alxa123]

Perhaps...but I'm pretty sure more employers overseas would have heard of NUS compared to NTU(which incidentally shares the same initials as National Taiwan University)

Hmm, actually NTU is rather well known for our eng and biz schools, even better that our taiwan counterpart in terms of (eng) research,citations. For a 50(age) and under school to be ranked 34 (subject) by THE and within top 15(QS) for most respective engine schools, I will say that it's pretty good. However, I'm an alumni so I'm biased here. Awy, let's keep the discussion within MBA courses.

 

[Bedokian]

While having a masters is important in your dream job, it pays to have some connections as well.

 

[bugmenot45]

Hmm, actually NTU is rather well known for our eng and biz schools

NUS overtakes NTU in MBA rankings | AsiaOne Business

 

[alxa123]

NUS overtakes NTU in MBA rankings | AsiaOne Business

so, what's your point?

1)2013 MBA & Business School Rankings | Which MBA? | The Economist

2)Business school rankings from the Financial Times - Executive MBA Ranking 2013

 

[vesfreq]

Wow.... I last read this thread in 2009 prior to signing up for my MBA with Manchester uni. Its amazing that its still alive.

Just to add my piece here. I also faced similar dilemmas and concerns prior to signing up for my MBA. At that time, it wasn't a cheap investment.

What is most worthwhile is the friendship. The other being the recognition and affiliation with the uni. It truly opened doors for me, like being able to meet senior people from MNCs and established SMEs. I also met my bosses during my MBA days.

Those were tough times, but well worth it.

If I have to give this advice, do not do an MBA for the sake of it. But, do one which adds value to the resume. Remember also that each of us only have that limited amount of time in our lives. Make it a good MBA if you pursue one. Never be penny wise, yet pound foolish. This is especially the case for grad and post grad studies.

Success never evade those who try hard enough. It only eludes those who never try.