WireCard!!

coolhead

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Nah mate it’s not. $2 billion (the amount of faked profit) is their entire profit since 2012—that is, once you strip out the fraud, Wirecard hasn’t turned a profit in nearly a decade. And they’re about to have their bank lines pulled. Buying WDI here is a sucker’s bet.

If what you are saying is indeed true, then....there is seriously something wrong within the company. I'm not from Wirecard though I was tempted to join a few years back. Much smaller payment processors such as 2c2p and checkout.com achieved profit and we all know that transaction volume means alot to the survivability of a payments business. It's either 2 things: 1) Company has alot of excess to trim or 2) There is more worms to be dug out but still hidden from public view.

It is simply impossible for a company the size and economies of scale of Wirecard to be making a loss. This is speaking from industry experience.

This is getting real scary for people in the know.
 

koreanlover

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Nah mate it’s not. $2 billion (the amount of faked profit) is their entire profit since 2012—that is, once you strip out the fraud, Wirecard hasn’t turned a profit in nearly a decade. And they’re about to have their bank lines pulled. Buying WDI here is a sucker’s bet.

Shiny, what do you think will happen to our Wirecard issued prepaid/debit cards if it declares bankruptcy?
 

BBCWatcher

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Shiny, what do you think will happen to our Wirecard issued prepaid/debit cards if it declares bankruptcy?
I know you asked Shiny Things, but I'll offer an answer then see if S.T. would like to chime in as well. The MCO Visa Card is one example of a Wirecard-issued prepaid card. Their legal terms and conditions are posted here. RHB's TravelFX card is another example. As RHB explains, all funds loaded on the TravelFX card are held by Wirecard Singapore Pte. Ltd., not by RHB Bank.

Does anyone know of any other examples?

The bottom line is that there's little or no regulation and certainly no SDIC coverage. You're an unsecured creditor.
 

koreanlover

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I know you asked Shiny Things, but I'll offer an answer then see if S.T. would like to chime in as well. The MCO Visa Card is one example of a Wirecard-issued prepaid card. Their legal terms and conditions are posted here. RHB's TravelFX card is another example. As RHB explains, all funds loaded on the TravelFX card are held by Wirecard Singapore Pte. Ltd., not by RHB Bank.

Does anyone know of any other examples?

The bottom line is that there's little or no regulation and certainly no SDIC coverage. You're an unsecured creditor.

Yeah I have the MCO Visa card.
Looks like I'd better not top up too much into it. ;)
 

silverbomb

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I know you asked Shiny Things, but I'll offer an answer then see if S.T. would like to chime in as well. The MCO Visa Card is one example of a Wirecard-issued prepaid card. Their legal terms and conditions are posted here. RHB's TravelFX card is another example. As RHB explains, all funds loaded on the TravelFX card are held by Wirecard Singapore Pte. Ltd., not by RHB Bank.

Does anyone know of any other examples?

The bottom line is that there's little or no regulation and certainly no SDIC coverage. You're an unsecured creditor.

So are both crypto and visa wallet under wirecard purview, or just the visa wallet?
 

Shiny Things

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There are reports on Twitter this morning that Wirecard’s point-of-sale terminals are down in Singapore. Has anyone tried to pay with a credit card at a shop that uses a Wirecard terminal, any time this morning? Did it work?

(Update: to be clear I’m 100% serious about this. Pop on a mask and pop down to your local corner shop or coffee place, if they have a Wirecard terminal, report back whether it works or not. Double bonus points if you shoot a quick video. This is potentially big stuff.)
 
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RedsYWNA

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There are reports on Twitter this morning that Wirecard’s point-of-sale terminals are down in Singapore. Has anyone tried to pay with a credit card at a shop that uses a Wirecard terminal, any time this morning? Did it work?

(Update: to be clear I’m 100% serious about this. Pop on a mask and pop down to your local corner shop or coffee place, if they have a Wirecard terminal, report back whether it works or not. Double bonus points if you shoot a quick video. This is potentially big stuff.)

Last weekend, I saw Beauty in the Pot (Paradise Group) using Wirecard terminals, and I was joking with the cashier that Wirecard is in trouble.

Anway after due consideration, I have decided to give Wirecard a miss, as the risks outweigh the rewards by a big margin.

The main rewards would be a Luckin-style rumoured acquisition, but I think there's too much due diligence risk involved for potential acquirers.

While downside risks from Visa, Master, BaFin are high.....
 

发哨子2020

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Don’t you all use those credit cards for points / discounts ?

Never heard of this Wirecard till this explosion .
 

RedsYWNA

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发哨子2020;127954068 said:
Don’t you all use those credit cards for points / discounts ?

Never heard of this Wirecard till this explosion .

Wirecard is a payment gateway provider (ie facilitating those online transactions in which you need to key in OTP), and they also have actual credit card payment terminals.

They are the cheapest around in Asia, hence their popularity with merchants....
 

BBCWatcher

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发哨子2020;127954068 said:
Don’t you all use those credit cards for points / discounts ?

Never heard of this Wirecard till this explosion.
In Singapore, Wirecard is primarily a payment processor. At the top of your credit or debit card receipt you'll often see "Wirecard." That means the merchant is using Wirecard's service to process your card transaction. Grab, for example, reportedly uses Wirecard as its payment processor.

Wirecard also provides "white label" prepaid card services, including the MCO Visa cards and RHB Bank's TravelFX card. These cards are reasonably attractive for international travel and perhaps some online shopping in currencies other than Singapore dollars.

Wirecard is in trouble. If they shut down, particularly without much notice, then it's likely that merchants and consumers in Singapore will have trouble with their credit and debit cards. (Hint: Carry your NETS card at least.) The merchants will have to scramble to make alternate arrangements, and this'll take some time. There's also some risk that those prepaid card holders will balances could become unsecured creditors of Wirecard Singapore Pte. Ltd. RHB Bank could have a serious customer relationship problem on its hands if that were to happen. That's a retail bank, in Singapore, issuing a prepaid travel card with the RHB logo. "Sorry, your cash is gone" doesn't seem like it'll be well received among that bank's customers, does it?

Anyway, hopefully there will be little or no disruption, but if you do have one of these Wirecard-issued prepaid cards with a balance, especially a large one, it sure seems like a good idea to spend down your funds on the card as quickly as possible.
 

battledome64

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In Singapore, Wirecard is primarily a payment processor. At the top of your credit or debit card receipt you'll often see "Wirecard." That means the merchant is using Wirecard's service to process your card transaction. Grab, for example, reportedly uses Wirecard as its payment processor.

Wirecard also provides "white label" prepaid card services, including the MCO Visa cards and RHB Bank's TravelFX card. These cards are reasonably attractive for international travel and perhaps some online shopping in currencies other than Singapore dollars.

Wirecard is in trouble. If they shut down, particularly without much notice, then it's likely that merchants and consumers in Singapore will have trouble with their credit and debit cards. (Hint: Carry your NETS card at least.) The merchants will have to scramble to make alternate arrangements, and this'll take some time. There's also some risk that those prepaid card holders will balances could become unsecured creditors of Wirecard Singapore Pte. Ltd. RHB Bank could have a serious customer relationship problem on its hands if that were to happen. That's a retail bank, in Singapore, issuing a prepaid travel card with the RHB logo. "Sorry, your cash is gone" doesn't seem like it'll be well received among that bank's customers, does it?

Anyway, hopefully there will be little or no disruption, but if you do have one of these Wirecard-issued prepaid cards with a balance, especially a large one, it sure seems like a good idea to spend down your funds on the card as quickly as possible.

So GrabPay uses Wirecard?
 

coolhead

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Last weekend, I saw Beauty in the Pot (Paradise Group) using Wirecard terminals, and I was joking with the cashier that Wirecard is in trouble.

Anway after due consideration, I have decided to give Wirecard a miss, as the risks outweigh the rewards by a big margin.

The main rewards would be a Luckin-style rumoured acquisition, but I think there's too much due diligence risk involved for potential acquirers.

While downside risks from Visa, Master, BaFin are high.....

I actually went in abit yesterday, take it as play money that I am okay to lose. Note I haven't taken a look at their financials/annual reports.

Comparison wise with their closest competitor geographical and business profile wise, it will be Adyen (Originated from Netherlands). Adyen with 1100+ employees and €240 billion in processed volume in 2019. Wirecard in comparison with 5300 employees (from Wiki) and €124.2bn transaction volume 9 months 2019. We can extrapolate €124.2bn to €165bn in FY2019.
Now,this looks like Wirecard has almost 5 times the employee size of Adyen with less than 1/3 the transaction volume. This makes Wirecard sound pretty bloated to me and cost cutting seems like a guaranteed, easy and lowest hanging fruit to bring this company to profitability. (pls note transaction volume is not revenue. In simplest terms, transaction volume is the amount of authorised payment that flows through its payment processing host. Revenue can then be loosely calculated by the transaction volume * the difference between Merchant Discount Rate and Interchange fee). Very simplified example: If transaction volume is 100bn and interchange fee is 1% and merchant discount rate is 2.5%, then revenue is $100bn * (1.025 - 1.01) = $1.5BN.

Questionable: Recent acquisitions by Wirecard on smaller players.

Dealbreaker: As with all payment processing businesses, transaction volume is key. You could have 1000% increase in transaction volume via expansion of merchant acquiring countries and your capital outlay will be terminal inventory, branch office and merchant services, certification and testing for that country. It is like a positive feedback loop, the more currencies and payment partners you have onboard, the more merchants will want to join you to use your services, and then you have more payment partners who want to come onboard because you have more merchants. It is still OK to lose an acquiring license in a country. But the moment Wirecard loses its partnership with Visa/master, it's like cutting the main artery from the heart to the rest of the body; Wirecard dies. However I believe that may not happen so soon in the next matter of days or weeks (Wirecard was known for taking in high risk merchants such as gambling and adult entertainment but no hoots given). But no doubt all partners of Wirecard are being updated on the latest events happening at Wirecard. In the event Wirecard is not bankrupt but the major international payment schemes like Visa/master decide to cut links with Wirecard, it will become an attractive buyover target at this price because of my next point (valuable intangibles). Nonetheless, any bank or scheme connected to Wirecard is likely to make contingency plans if not yet.

Another dealbreaker is any potential worms we are not aware of. I am in the dark about this.

Valuable intangibles: Its merchants, especially merchants on physical terminal. Wirecard is pretty aggressive in merchant acquiring in Asia region, especially taking over the Citi merchant acquiring business in 2017. If any competitor can take over Wirecard's merchant acquiring business, it's definitely worth far more than the current market cap of approx 2BN USD.

Potentially valuable intangibles: its datacentres. Every payment processing company will have datacentres based on their expected transaction volume and redundancy. This can be 1 of the assets from Wirecard.
Wirecard also has its own suite of terminals (which is how it got into acquiring physical merchants) however, it is possible other payment processing companies can use terminals from other terminal manufacturers such as Ingenico and Verifone though it's not entirely plug and play).

Unneeed intangibles: Its partnership with banks and major international schemes, acquiring licenses in every country. This is because other payment processors have already possessed this.
 
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coolhead

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I actually went in abit yesterday, take it as play money that I am okay to lose. Note I haven't taken a look at their financials/annual reports.

Comparison wise with their closest competitor geographical and business profile wise, it will be Adyen (Originated from Netherlands). Adyen with 1100+ employees and €240 billion in processed volume in 2019. Wirecard in comparison with 5300 employees (from Wiki) and €124.2bn transaction volume 9 months 2019. We can extrapolate €124.2bn to €165bn in FY2019.
Now,this looks like Wirecard has almost 5 times the employee size of Adyen with less than 1/3 the transaction volume. This makes Wirecard sound pretty bloated to me and cost cutting seems like a guaranteed, easy and lowest hanging fruit to bring this company to profitability. (pls note transaction volume is not revenue. In simplest terms, transaction volume is the amount of authorised payment that flows through its payment processing host. Revenue can then be loosely calculated by the transaction volume * the difference between Merchant Discount Rate and Interchange fee). Very simplified example: If transaction volume is 100bn and interchange fee is 1% and merchant discount rate is 2.5%, then revenue is $100bn * (1.025 - 1.01) = $1.5BN.

Questionable: Recent acquisitions by Wirecard on smaller players.

Dealbreaker: As with all payment processing businesses, transaction volume is key. You could have 1000% increase in transaction volume via expansion of merchant acquiring countries and your capital outlay will be terminal inventory, branch office and merchant services, certification and testing for that country. It is like a positive feedback loop, the more currencies and payment partners you have onboard, the more merchants will want to join you to use your services, and then you have more payment partners who want to come onboard because you have more merchants. It is still OK to lose an acquiring license in a country. But the moment Wirecard loses its partnership with Visa/master, it's like cutting the main artery from the heart to the rest of the body; Wirecard dies. However I believe that may not happen so soon in the next matter of days or weeks (Wirecard was known for taking in high risk merchants such as gambling and adult entertainment but no hoots given). But no doubt all partners of Wirecard are being updated on the latest events happening at Wirecard. In the event Wirecard is not bankrupt but the major international payment schemes like Visa/master decide to cut links with Wirecard, it will become an attractive buyover target at this price because of my next point (valuable intangibles). Nonetheless, any bank or scheme connected to Wirecard is likely to make contingency plans if not yet.

Another dealbreaker is any potential worms we are not aware of. I am in the dark about this.

Valuable intangibles: Its merchants, especially merchants on physical terminal. Wirecard is pretty aggressive in merchant acquiring in Asia region, especially taking over the Citi merchant acquiring business in 2017. If any competitor can take over Wirecard's merchant acquiring business, it's definitely worth far more than the current market cap of approx 2BN USD.

Potentially valuable intangibles: its datacentres. Every payment processing company will have datacentres based on their expected transaction volume and redundancy. This can be 1 of the assets from Wirecard.
Wirecard also has its own suite of terminals (which is how it got into acquiring physical merchants) however, it is possible other payment processing companies can use terminals from other terminal manufacturers such as Ingenico and Verifone though it's not entirely plug and play).

Unneeed intangibles: Its partnership with banks and major international schemes, acquiring licenses in every country. This is because other payment processors have already possessed this.

All these being said and done, the play money for Wirecard is not meant for investing purposes, it's only for trading after massive decrease in share price.

Extra edit: I went long on Adyen after this Wirecard massacre.
 
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发哨子2020

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So the consumers are spared but the merchants may be in $trouble$ .

Wirecard is a payment gateway provider (ie facilitating those online transactions in which you need to key in OTP), and they also have actual credit card payment terminals.

They are the cheapest around in Asia, hence their popularity with merchants....
 

BBCWatcher

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So GrabPay uses Wirecard?
According to news reports, yes.

....Now,this looks like Wirecard has almost 5 times the employee size of Adyen with less than 1/3 the transaction volume. This makes Wirecard sound pretty bloated to me and cost cutting seems like a guaranteed, easy and lowest hanging fruit to bring this company to profitability.
In "ordinary" times, perhaps. These aren't ordinary times for Wirecard.

(pls note transaction volume is not revenue. In simplest terms, transaction volume is the amount of authorised payment that flows through its payment processing host. Revenue can then be loosely calculated by the transaction volume * the difference between Merchant Discount Rate and Interchange fee). Very simplified example: If transaction volume is 100bn and interchange fee is 1% and merchant discount rate is 2.5%, then revenue is $100bn * (1.025 - 1.01) = $1.5BN.
Wirecard has allegedly been very aggressive in acquiring merchants, so it's likely their per transaction cut is lower than what their competitors are getting. There are also some fixed operating costs, i.e. scale economies matter.

Questionable: Recent acquisitions by Wirecard on smaller players.
That's been a problem for other players, yes.

But the moment Wirecard loses its partnership with Visa/master, it's like cutting the main artery from the heart to the rest of the body; Wirecard dies.
This could happen. It happened to CardSystems several years ago, and it was basically a death sentence, requiring CardSystems to sell itself to the highest bidder, a bidder who didn't have to bid very much. Interestingly, one of Wirecard's regional operating brands in the Middle East is "CardSystems."

But no doubt all partners of Wirecard are being updated on the latest events happening at Wirecard.
If they are the briefings don't have much shelf life. Their CEO resigned only this past Friday (June 19, 2020) and was arrested soon after. Their COO is gone, too. It's a very fast moving story.

In the event Wirecard is not bankrupt but the major international payment schemes like Visa/master decide to cut links with Wirecard, it will become an attractive buyover target at this price because of my next point (valuable intangibles). Nonetheless, any bank or scheme connected to Wirecard is likely to make contingency plans if not yet.
Yes, major merchants and partners must be scrambling right now. "Mom and pop" merchants could be disrupted.

Another dealbreaker is any potential worms we are not aware of. I am in the dark about this.
The Financial Times has been opening this can of worms for nearly 5 years. It seems to be a very big, very wormy can.

Valuable intangibles: Its merchants, especially merchants on physical terminal. Wirecard is pretty aggressive in merchant acquiring in Asia region, especially taking over the Citi merchant acquiring business in 2017. If any competitor can take over Wirecard's merchant acquiring business, it's definitely worth far more than the current market cap of approx 2BN USD.
It's probably worth something, but it's also difficult to value amidst this turmoil. Accounting problems can be really deadly.

Potentially valuable intangibles: its datacentres. Every payment processing company will have datacentres based on their expected transaction volume and redundancy. This can be 1 of the assets from Wirecard.
Even if Wirecard has such assets (not a given), they're not worth what they used to be. These days data centers tend to be "co-location facilities," meaning they're like Regus or WeWork facilities for computers. You don't own the building. Moreover, the now used equipment in those data centers isn't usually worth very much, even if it's premium gear (and it probably isn't). And if they're principally running in public clouds, they don't even have this much.

Wirecard also has its own suite of terminals (which is how it got into acquiring physical merchants) however, it is possible other payment processing companies can use terminals from other terminal manufacturers such as Ingenico and Verifone though it's not entirely plug and play).
Right, but these could turn into e-waste. And who's going to pay to retrieve them, even if Wirecard owns them? (Wirecard might not.)

All these being said and done, the play money for Wirecard is not meant for investing purposes, it's only for trading after massive decrease in share price.
There is actually an interesting branch of investing involving distressed assets. The great Warren Buffett famously loaned billions to Goldman Sachs in the depths of the Global Financial Crisis. He demanded preferred shares yielding 10% dividends plus a stock purchase option. He got it, and he did quite well. Goldman Sachs did, too: they survived and prospered.

发哨子2020;127956086 said:
So the consumers are spared but the merchants may be in $trouble$ .
Some consumers could face difficulties, notably the consumers with Wirecard-managed prepaid cards that have balances held by Wirecard.
 

m@maboi

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People in the company still acting like nothing has happen. :)

Anyway fraud or no fraud, that company is doom to fail. They hired so many executives and senior leaders but without any executor or anyone to do legwork. All their hires dont come cheap.
It's been common knowledge for at least five years now that Wirecard was dirty. The only surprising thing is that it took such a long time for it all to cave in.
 

m@maboi

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They bought over citi acquiring services few years back. Hence most wirecard terminals u see at retail are all former citibank clients
发哨子2020;127954068 said:
Don’t you all use those credit cards for points / discounts ?

Never heard of this Wirecard till this explosion .
 
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