Insurers' par fund CAGR FY2008 onwards

[Lewis.T]

nobody says sti etf got guaranteed

as an insurance agent, you are indeed well versed in oil snaking haha. got to give u credits for that

but ur english fail - "all ur whole life, ilp, endowment plans got guaranteed beat market returns from day 1?"

didnt even mention guaranteed portions

cheers to insurance agents selling snake oil!

Lol k. I see logic still doesn't appeal to you when you want to use variables to compare to something. *Hint* Market returns could be negative as well as positive. It's an entire range of percentages.

Secondly, I've never claimed that an endowment (or whatever comes from insurers) is guaranteed to beat market returns for a similar duration. You just put that in my mouth. I'm not so stupid to claim that unfortunately.

What I will mention, and it won't be the first time that I'm claming this, is that par fund products such as endowments or whole life plans comes with death benefit, and a guaranteed portion.

Some people do not like the simple fact that the STI ETF could give negative returns, however unlikely that may be.

Does this make the STI ETF bad? No. You just need to understand and appreciate your purchases and the risks that come along with it. Does this make endowments bad? No either, because while you and others may not think the benefit is relevant to you does not make the benefits irrelevant.

On that note, if you're all for returns without bothering about risk, why are you not dabbling in penny stocks?

 

[Lewis.T]

nobody says sti etf got guaranteed

as an insurance agent, you are indeed well versed in oil snaking haha. got to give u credits for that

but ur english fail - "all ur whole life, ilp, endowment plans got guaranteed beat market returns from day 1?"

didnt even mention guaranteed portions

cheers to insurance agents selling snake oil!

Lol k. I see logic still doesn't appeal to you when you want to use variables to compare to something. *Hint* Market returns could be negative as well as positive. It's an entire range of percentages.

Secondly, I've never claimed that an endowment (or whatever comes from insurers) is guaranteed to beat market returns for a similar duration. You just put that in my mouth. I'm not so stupid to claim that unfortunately.

What I will mention, and it won't be the first time that I'm claming this, is that par fund products such as endowments or whole life plans comes with death benefit, and a guaranteed portion.

Some people do not like the simple fact that the STI ETF could give negative returns, however unlikely that may be.

Does this make the STI ETF bad? No. You just need to understand and appreciate your purchases and the risks that come along with it. Does this make endowments bad? No either, because while you and others may not think the benefit is relevant to you does not make the benefits irrelevant.

On that note, if you're all for returns without bothering about risk, why are you not dabbling in penny stocks? If no, why not? If yes, why still buy the STI ETF then instead of going all-in on penny stocks?

 

[akwl88]

Lol k. I see logic still doesn't appeal to you when you want to use variables to compare to something. *Hint* Market returns could be negative as well as positive. It's an entire range of percentages.

Secondly, I've never claimed that an endowment (or whatever comes from insurers) is guaranteed to beat market returns for a similar duration. You just put that in my mouth. I'm not so stupid to claim that unfortunately.

What I will mention, and it won't be the first time that I'm claming this, is that par fund products such as endowments or whole life plans comes with death benefit, and a guaranteed portion.

Some people do not like the simple fact that the STI ETF could give negative returns, however unlikely that may be.

Does this make the STI ETF bad? No. You just need to understand and appreciate your purchases and the risks that come along with it. Does this make endowments bad? No either, because while you and others may not think the benefit is relevant to you does not make the benefits irrelevant.

On that note, if you're all for returns without bothering about risk, why are you not dabbling in penny stocks? If no, why not? If yes, why still buy the STI ETF then instead of going all-in on penny stocks?

investment carries a risk, be it sti etf or par fund

since u admitted that policyholders returns under-performs sti etf, though you do not want disclose how much, why waste ur money investing through insurers?

there is so much risks in investing through insurers - risk of locking in ur money for long time, risk of under performing the index, risk of penalty for early surrender etc

now u are trying to bring in insurance benefits when we are talking purely investments?

 

[Lewis.T]

Since I'm rather free right now, I've decided to come up with a game of sorts for you to try your hand at.

All you have to do is choose either 'endowment' or 'STI ETF' for the answer. Rather simple right?

Here are the questions:

Is an endowment or the STI ETF better for

1. Someone who started subscribing to either an endowment or STI ETF but needs the money the following year because of unforeseen issues.

2. Someone who is trying to save up for his daughter's education fund but passes on 2 years after starting.

3. Someone who is bullish on the STI.

4. Someone who is bearish on the STI.

5. Someone who wants to have his capital intact when he withdraws the money 20 years into the future.

6. Someone who wishes to get possibly more returns and doesn't mind taking on additional risk.



So.. what's your conclusion akwl88? Is there anything conclusive about your findings from this little mental exercise?

 

[Lewis.T]

investment carries a risk, be it sti etf or par fund

since u admitted that policyholders returns under-performs sti etf, though you do not want disclose how much, why waste ur money investing through insurers?

there is so much risks in investing through insurers - risk of locking in ur money for long time, risk of under performing the index, risk of penalty for early surrender etc

now u are trying to bring in insurance benefits when we are talking purely investments?

Excuse me? Who is talking about purely investments here? Have you seen the thread title for a start? I didn't know this thread was titled does an endowment give more returns in the last 10 years or the STI ETF?

Who's the one actively trying to compare the two on a pure investment standpoint? And why? What's your point? My point is one is not better than the other, it depends on the individual's circumstances.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/103008692-post50.html
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/107347442-post82.html
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/107347516-post84.html
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/108314751-post123.html
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/108758202-post153.html

Going through the 5 links you posted in this thread, are you insinuating that STI ETF is sure win over the endowment? Please make yourself clear here, don't confuse the readers. If yes, I might have to report you to some authority that deals with you giving inappropriate advice.

Please make yourself extremely clear in the next post on your stance on STI ETF and endowments thank you. If you don't have a clear statement to make, don't come into the thread boasting high returns of the ETF when that advice is not applicable to everyone. I know I don't claim that an endowment is suitable for everybody.

Once again, here is my stance, and you can quote me.

"Neither is better. They serve different purposes and should not be compared tit for tat. There are areas in which an endowment is better than the STI ETF and vice versa. Choose what is appropriate for you based on your own individual circumstance(s)."

 

[Shion]

what is the purpose of looking at par funds performance? Are u using this to decide which insurer to buy your policies? Hope not!

Quoting myself in my opening post

We attempt to keep track on the par fund performance of insurers starting from FY2008. Our aim is to update this mini excel calculation every year until I leave this forum or when this forum ceases operations, whichever comes first. We hope that this thread will last for the next 15-20 years where our policies would likely reach maturity or hit break-even point by then.

 

[maple96]

Quoting myself in my opening post

thanks so those guys are here to confuse/mislead

 

[maple96]

Since I'm rather free right now, I've decided to come up with a game of sorts for you to try your hand at.

All you have to do is choose either 'endowment' or 'STI ETF' for the answer. Rather simple right?

Here are the questions:

Congrats u won since no answers were given! Good points

 

[Shion]

thanks so those guys are here to confuse/mislead

Yes, to keep track on the returns by insurers. In the long run into the future, we can look back and see how the insurers have performed.

If possible, I also want to include the par fund returns as ancient as possible, but I have no data at the moment

Of course, one has to take note that past performance does not necessary translate into future performance

 

[soneat]

Yes, to keep track on the returns by insurers. In the long run into the future, we can look back and see how the insurers have performed.

If possible, I also want to include the par fund returns as ancient as possible, but I have no data at the moment

Of course, one has to take note that past performance does not necessary translate into future performance

Par fund performance is one factor. The ethics of the insurer is another separate factor.
1. GE par fund was not particularly strong, but they opt to give out an one-off annual bonus (equivalent to 1% of Basic Sum Assured).
2. AIA par fund performed well and the circular suggest that they will "increase" bonus. I received a letter saying they will main the bonus for my policies. For the past 2x+ years, the only thing they did was to cut the protection/surrender value silently.
3. Income pretty much BAU, but breakeven pretty fast (~9 to 11 years)

 

[Shion]

Par fund performance is one factor. The ethics of the insurer is another separate factor.
1. GE par fund was not particularly strong, but they opt to give out an one-off annual bonus (equivalent to 1% of Basic Sum Assured).
2. AIA par fund performed well and the circular suggest that they will "increase" bonus. I received a letter saying they will main the bonus for my policies. For the past 2x+ years, the only thing they did was to cut the protection/surrender value silently.
3. Income pretty much BAU, but breakeven pretty fast (~9 to 11 years)

Indeed.

That is one reason why I dislike AIA

 

[blurpandasg2014]

I also realised that my surrender value for aia is less den the BI. However projected value still remain same

Hopefully they live up to their projections

 

[H0cusP0cus]

I have a endowment plan with AIA bought 4 years back and the post sales illustration still shows same value as the contract.

Anyone have >10 years endowment that matured alr? Wondering how close to the 4.75% projection did these endowment plans matured with.

 

[blurpandasg2014]

I have a endowment plan with AIA bought 4 years back and the post sales illustration still shows same value as the contract.

Anyone have >10 years endowment that matured alr? Wondering how close to the 4.75% projection did these endowment plans matured with.

Those who bought 10yrs ago will have their projections cut big time due to the 2008/2009 financial crisis. Heard the cuts are quite significant

 

[H0cusP0cus]

Haha that’s the reason why I wanna see the returns for those. However I think it’s quite difficult to find someone with a >10 endowment and still keeps the original contract. Trying my luck here though to find the truth Rather than hearsay.

Those who bought 10yrs ago will have their projections cut big time due to the 2008/2009 financial crisis. Heard the cuts are quite significant

 

[Shion]

 

[Shion]

Think FY2018 % may be roughly 50-60% of FY2017 % looking at current economic performance

 

[bobobob]

Hi guys,

Does anyone have any insight into how the insurers give out the bonus portion of their policies? Is there a way we can compare the fund return to what they give us? And are there any regulations or standards on what portion of their returns they give out to the policy holders?

 

[Shion]

Upz for the new year !

 

[SBC]

Should be happy to get a 7% for most coy this year.