FRS vs ERS

henrylbh

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OK, that choice is available to you if you simply leave Singapore and terminate your right of abode in Singapore (citizenship or permanent residence, as applicable), as long as you terminate before CPF LIFE payouts start …

Is that your best available alternative? Is that your plan?

Not liking cpf life does not imply that I have to /plan to leave Singapore just as not being able to purchase joint annuity here does not not imply that you have to leave.

I refrain from disagreeing with the alternative that one got choice to cut one's NRIC as an option to terminate CPF cause I thought that was dumb answer :s13:

Dumb leads to dumb, which is the whole point.

For example, it'd be terrific if CPF Special, MediSave, and Retirement Accounts earned 8% interest on every dollar. But they don't. They earn attractive interest that's well above market rates (and getting more above market lately). It's dumb to discuss alternatives that don't exist, except possibly in broad policy proposal terms, especially when they are fully funded policy proposals. There is no "breakeven age" for CPF LIFE based on 4+% interest forever and ever -- there is no such alternative. (Well, except for my "dumb" counterexample, if you'd like to choose it.) There's no God given right to above market interest on pre-tax/never taxed dollars.

That's not only conflating but deflating the issue on quitting the country for disliking the what is dished out. Like that 30% of voters need to leave the country.
 

dork32

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Did it ?
Anyway nobody is forced to work.
Kopitiam /RC karaoke /libraries/ Chinatown are full of elderly idling away days after days, years after years.

Many works are not labour intensive & why not?
Boredom /dementia /nagging wives kill.
In my line, most in 60s - 70s are working, at least part time.

garmen did not say directly.

raising the retirement age, delaying the cpf life payout...
what does that mean?
 

dork32

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So you like a bit more CPF or a bit less?

Unfortunately there is no perfect system around for a spectrum of people.
As long as most can benefit, it should be done.

Many 'ideas' proposed by some only aim to maximise their own pocket $$ in their own situations.

are you sure most people can benefit from cpf life? it could be there many people die young and lose such that a few that live forever can benefit.

what is wrong with trying to maximize our own pocket $$. arent you doing that? otherwise might as well as put your money under your pillow instead of buying ocbc.
 

dork32

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there you go again. same old trick again. bbc asking people that do not like cpf to leave sg.
 

dork32

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and bbc is telling everyone that there is not break even in cpf life.

this is trash
 

henrylbh

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garmen did not say directly.

raising the retirement age, delaying the cpf life payout...
what does that mean?

Not uncommon to hear some say government no enough money. Must delay to collect more CPF by indirectly making them work longer. Sound reasonable?
 

romeo88

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IB

Has any one ever wondered there could be a very serious IB lurking everywhere in HWZ "specialising" in CPF, especially and specifically CPF LIFE ?

I'm serious.

cos as u always say, he never eat the "head of the sng, so buay hiau sng" :s13:
 

Merg91

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Of course most people in Singapore live till old age.
Accidents /unforseen illness may claim a few but most would.
I am almost all your ex secondary /uni mates are still around, some with kids & live well.

Of course nothing wrong to maximize our own cash /own OA but cpf life is for all.

are you sure most people can benefit from cpf life? it could be there many people die young and lose such that a few that live forever can benefit.

what is wrong with trying to maximize our own pocket $$. arent you doing that? otherwise might as well as put your money under your pillow instead of buying ocbc.
 

dork32

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Of course most people in Singapore live till old age.
Accidents /unforseen illness may claim a few but most would.
I am almost all your ex secondary /uni mates are still around, some with kids & live well.

Of course nothing wrong to maximize our own cash /own OA but cpf life is for all.

you are posting like the cpf talks.

define old age. to die at 80, is that ripe old age? robert tan, tjc principal during my time just died at 80. you go see his photo. he does look old. but is that enuf? no, you have to survive past 87 to really benefit from cpf life.

and just for your info, some of my classmates also died already.

you wan to contradict garmen? garmen say cpf life is also your money. what is wrong if i want to optimize my own money.

and wat is the purpose of choosing
basic, standard, escalating
brs, frs, ers
65 , 70 for payout.
It is because we all want to optimize our money.
 

BlueRobin

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Is there a private annuity product that:

1. Take in single premium at $264,000,
2. Accumulation period of 10 years,
3. Pay monthly between $1,819 - $2,017 for life?
 

BBCWatcher

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He runs the wrong numbers on the basis that practically everyone wins.
Well above market interest on pre-tax/never taxed dollars is wonderful stuff, so wonderful that it's always better than anything you could ever do on your own with even a mediocre quality bond portfolio. Even if you were to die on precisely the "worst" possible day, the day that minimizes your net effective yield from the whole program. Yes, practically everybody "wins," some more than others. If I end up with a net effective yield of 3.4% while you end up with a net effective yield of 4.2%, and both without any risk of outliving our savings, we both win in our 2.0% yielding world. You "win" more than I do, but we're both big winners.

So just make CPF the most wonderful part of the bond leg of your long-term savings, rolling into a never excessive amount of longevity insurance, enjoy the fact you're getting a genuinely great deal, and go do whatever else you want to do with the rest of your savings/investments. Simple!

I've crunched these numbers backwards and forwards, and the plain fact is that it's a great bond-like deal. So has Mercer, for example, and they agree: this a fine, world class program. Most foreign workers wish they could be CPF members, and they're not wrong either.

Was the overall deal better in the past? No, probably not, for the several reasons I described.
 

BBCWatcher

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Is there a private annuity product that:
1. Take in single premium at $264,000,
2. Accumulation period of 10 years,
3. Pay monthly between $1,819 - $2,017 for life?
You forgot some more important points (examples):

4. With some residual possible, depending on age at death.
5. Funded with mostly pre-tax/never taxed dollars.
6. Uniquely shielded from creditors and court judgments, worldwide.

Answer: No, not in Singapore dollars. That's a uniquely good deal.
 

angtc11

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So you like a bit more CPF or a bit less?

Unfortunately there is no perfect system around for a spectrum of people.
As long as most can benefit, it should be done.

Many 'ideas' proposed by some only aim to maximise their own pocket $$ in their own situations.

I like cpf, I don't like cpf life.
Most people will not benefit from cpf life due to the high breakeven age, not unless the median life span increases 10 years and the payout per dollar of premium is maintained.

You haven't shared what you think about your interest on 385k balance between 70 and 85 (or whatever age you expire) going to the pool.
 

angtc11

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Are they, assuming we're talking about citizens and basic shelter and basic food?

It'd certainly help if the government determined what the poverty line is in Singapore, updated it every year, and counted the number of households below the poverty line. I don't know how it's possible to declare that poverty isn't a problem if you won't even measure it at least reasonably well against a well determined benchmark.


....But it's for basic shelter and basic food from age 65 onward!

BRS-level CPF LIFE, Standard Plan, age 65 payout start is about $760 per month with no escalation to combat inflation. That's a lot less than, say, $1,800/month, isn't it? $760/month is certainly not a champagne and caviar income stream.

If you're talking about someone who's trying to live on, say, $800/month or less of income, you might have a point. But CPF contribution rates are lower for earned income below $750 per month, so this stuff all fits together fairly well. (We could certainly quibble about the exact numbers, but there was/is some logical policy design thinking applied here.)

Poverty sucks, no doubt. But elder destitution sucks even more, no doubt.


Dumb leads to dumb, which is the whole point.

For example, it'd be terrific if CPF Special, MediSave, and Retirement Accounts earned 8% interest on every dollar. But they don't. They earn attractive interest that's well above market rates (and getting more above market lately). It's dumb to discuss alternatives that don't exist, except possibly in broad policy proposal terms, especially when they are fully funded policy proposals. There is no "breakeven age" for CPF LIFE based on 4+% interest forever and ever -- there is no such alternative. (Well, except for my "dumb" counterexample, if you'd like to choose it.) There's no God given right to above market interest on pre-tax/never taxed dollars.

"Oh, but the old system was different...." Yes, it was, but it's no longer available. Moreover, those under the old system also "enjoyed" lower contribution rates (particularly on the employer side, which given how wage elasticities work means they were/are worse off than younger cohorts), lower median real wages, much less bonus interest (which only started in 2008), and fewer or no free money top ups. In other words, their CPF account balances are substantially lower -- and thus they are substantially poorer -- even with the same career experience as somebody working under the new system. And everybody under the old system has to start payouts no later than age 70, too.

With respect to the "oh, bonus interest wasn't tied to CPF LIFE," that's dumb. It doesn't have to be rule tied to CPF LIFE to be highly mathematically tied to CPF LIFE cohorts, which is exactly what it is. Bonus interest benefits younger cohorts much, much more than older cohorts. Bonus interest is not paid retroactively, for the part of your working career that spanned 1988 through 2007, for example. But if you started your working career 10 years ago, then your entire working career will enjoy the benefits of bonus interest...and you're a CPF LIFE cohort.

I think you are either being a mischievous troll or a disingenuous liar. Firstly you try to conflate cpf and cpf life but when it comes to the interest you insist its different?

Since you think that so long as the cpf balances are used for cpf life, anything affecting the cpf balances are a feature of cpf life, you can add in the childhood education grants as a benefit of cpf life. Or you can blame the recession that caused reduced cpf contribution rates on cpf life too.

Seriously rofl
 

Toni90

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I like cpf, I don't like cpf life.
Most people will not benefit from cpf life due to the high breakeven age, not unless the median life span increases 10 years and the payout per dollar of premium is maintained.

You haven't shared what you think about your interest on 385k balance between 70 and 85 (or whatever age you expire) going to the pool.

How do u get this median age 10 years increase?
 

tangent314

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The mean life expectancy at age 65 is 21.1, so the mean age of death of CPF Life members is about 86 years. Median would be about 87-88 years. Calculating by XIRR, breakeven for standard plan about 89 years, and standard plan beats basic plan at 88 years.
 

henrylbh

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Some here want only CPF SA with its ultrasafe safe high yield.
But a big no to CPF Life as they believe they would uplorry <85 & get nothing.

Buy a special offered Cold Storage whole fried chicken but insist on drum sticks only. Lol

There are all types of reasons for and against CPFL. Best resolution is a referendum with a majority of at least 75% just like en-bloc decision?
 
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