Getting started with insurance

[faithblitz]

Bumping this thread.

Working male. Non smoker. 26 ANB. Living with parents. Will be starting family maybe in 3 years time.

Currently holding on to

- GE's IHP plan + rider
- GE's ILP

Planning to drop my ILP and getting term up to Age 75 (as i wanna invest on my own). Looking to get a term plan with a Multipay CI as rider. Also considering to get disability income. Might also be getting SAF GTL to supplement my sum assured value up to age 65. Any opinions or feedback guys? Any FAs willing to provide quotes? Pls pm me thanks

 

[Aresden]

actually DI ranks really low on many others’ priority. At least it’s still pretty well received here.

Have had clients who approached other FAs who turned around to ask why do they want DI. It’s absolutely baffling that they can reply so blatantly.

I still stand firm that DI is way more important than CI.

Mind elaborating on why DI is prioritised before CI?

 

[BBCWatcher]

Mind elaborating on why DI is prioritised before CI?

I'll offer an answer: because the risk that DII defends against is a MUCH more consequential, much more catastrophic risk. The single biggest asset most mid-career (and younger) people have is their future earning potential, and the loss of that single biggest asset due to disability would be the most dreadful calamity that insurance could address.

 

[ctan84]

I'll offer an answer: because the risk that DII defends against is a MUCH more consequential, much more catastrophic risk. The single biggest asset most mid-career (and younger) people have is their future earning potential, and the loss of that single biggest asset due to disability would be the most dreadful calamity that insurance could address.

Can you kindly enlighten me on this BBCwatcher: does disability income insurance cover me from illness as well & not just PHYSICAL disability? Coz I recall (I might have remembered wrongly) reading from Shiny's thread long time ago that he mentioned there's no need to get critical illness insurance, & that disability income insurance should be purchased instead.

Does this mean if Im hit with cancer or any other illness and hence unable to work, Im eligible for payout from my disability income insurance?

 

[BBCWatcher]

Can you kindly enlighten me on this BBCwatcher: does disability income insurance cover me from illness as well & not just PHYSICAL disability?

Yes, if it impacts your ability to work and earn an income. It could even be mental illness, as a notable example.

Coz I recall (I might have remembered wrongly) reading from Shiny's thread long time ago that he mentioned there's no need to get critical illness insurance, & that disability income insurance should be purchased instead.

The intention behind so-called "Critical Illness" insurance is that certain medical conditions, such as cancer, often require expensive treatment and may disrupt your ability to work. True and true, but even a basic Integrated Shield plan provides a heck of a lot of coverage for acute medical care (including cancer treatment), and a CI policy only provides a one-time payment that's grossly inadequate to cope with prolonged inability to work and generate an income. Prolonged inability to work could be a multi-million dollar loss of earnings. A $100K or $200K CI "sympathy" payout just isn't going to cut it with that sort of loss.

Before the introduction of MediShield Life, the updating of Integrated Shield plans, and the coverage improvements, there was perhaps a stronger argument in favor of what is effectively supplemental medical coverage via CI and PA policies, trying to plug too big holes in medical coverage in Singapore. I think that argument is a lot weaker now, circa 2015 onward.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily totally opposed to CI coverage, but it's just not something that ranks as high among insurance priorities. I don't consider CI to be an "insurance necessity," in other words. It's much more important to cover what I call the "Big 3" insurance needs first and well, which in Singapore means a basic Integrated Shield plan, DII, and (if and only if you have at least one genuine dependent) term life insurance. (Don't buy life insurance simply because you think it'll make your already financially secure mother less sad if you should predecease her. It won't make her less sad, and it's certainly not an insurance necessity in such circumstances.) Also, if you venture outside Singapore, I think there's a strong argument in favor of travel medical insurance that covers medical evacuation and medical repatriation. I would classify that coverage as an insurance necessity, too.

For the record, there are a very, very few people who can self-insure and who can reduce or skip even the "Big 3." That's not most people.

The simple idea here is that premium dollars are precious, and you want to get as much insurance value (and real risk reduction) as you can for your insurance dollars. And I think the "Big 3" approach is quite sensible, then see whether you want to exceed that (and can afford it).

Does this mean if Im hit with cancer or any other illness and hence unable to work, Im eligible for payout from my disability income insurance?

Yes. You're not limited to a particular list of 36 (or whatever) ailments. Any cause(s) for the inability to work and associated income loss are valid, except for a very few standard exclusions. For example, if you take up arms to fight in Syria's civil war, then are injured and unable to work, DII policies issued in Singapore won't cover you. There are two reasons DII policies issued in Singapore won't cover you in that case. The first reason is that the cause of the disability is on the short list of exclusions. The second reason that there may be an exclusion is that DII policies set some limits on how long you're able to be away from or in between your "normal" work. Great Eastern seems to be the most tolerant of such pauses, while Aviva's MINDEF/SAF group DII policy seems to be the least tolerant.

 

[ctan84]

Thank you for the detailed explanation BBC. Im just in a weird position when it comes to insurance coverage, perhaps you can share a thought or 2 regarding my situation.

I had a border-line stage 0 cancer issue some 20 years ago during my late teens, went thru surgery & a round of chemo and was all cleared. The chemo was done as a sort of "just in case" treatment and might not even be necessary by today's standard. Cancer management was still quite primitive back in the 90s here in SG. On annual medical review since then and no issue for 2 decades already.

I pretty much neglected insurance coverage of any sort all working life until about 4-5 years back (in my mid-30s) when I was CONvinced to purchase an ILP that had $200k advanced CI coverage with 1) 20-30% loading, 2) BUT excluded all cancers. I had that plan cancelled earlier this year when I saw the table of deductions. Basically by the time Im 60, if nothing goes wrong, I would have paid almost $200k premium for $200k of coverage and this is on the assumption that my "investment portion" can hit a 4% annual return. Its just one of those WTF moments when I wondered why didn't the agent just recommend a whole life plan instead.

I have no issue getting term life insurance coverage, but had been rejected by one insurer so far for CI coverage because of this ancient cancer history. I have an integrated shield plan which covers up up till private hospital treatment with 0% co-payment, but of course cancer excluded.

Hence my question is: 1) Is it worth getting an international health plan for the cancer component? I know AXA offers such plans with no medical-underwriting required, but the annual premiums are pretty high though. 2) Is it worth trying for the CI and even early CI coverage with the other insurance companies when it seems disability income insurance seems sufficient? It just feel silly paying those expensive loading.

 

[moejoseph]

Thank you for the detailed explanation BBC. Im just in a weird position when it comes to insurance coverage, perhaps you can share a thought or 2 regarding my situation.

I had a border-line stage 0 cancer issue some 20 years ago during my late teens, went thru surgery & a round of chemo and was all cleared. The chemo was done as a sort of "just in case" treatment and might not even be necessary by today's standard. Cancer management was still quite primitive back in the 90s here in SG. On annual medical review since then and no issue for 2 decades already.

I pretty much neglected insurance coverage of any sort all working life until about 4-5 years back (in my mid-30s) when I was CONvinced to purchase an ILP that had $200k advanced CI coverage with 1) 20-30% loading, 2) BUT excluded all cancers. I had that plan cancelled earlier this year when I saw the table of deductions. Basically by the time Im 60, if nothing goes wrong, I would have paid almost $200k premium for $200k of coverage and this is on the assumption that my "investment portion" can hit a 4% annual return. Its just one of those WTF moments when I wondered why didn't the agent just recommend a whole life plan instead.

I have no issue getting term life insurance coverage, but had been rejected by one insurer so far for CI coverage because of this ancient cancer history. I have an integrated shield plan which covers up up till private hospital treatment with 0% co-payment, but of course cancer excluded.

Hence my question is: 1) Is it worth getting an international health plan for the cancer component? I know AXA offers such plans with no medical-underwriting required, but the annual premiums are pretty high though. 2) Is it worth trying for the CI and even early CI coverage with the other insurance companies when it seems disability income insurance seems sufficient? It just feel silly paying those expensive loading.

Regarding DII for CI, i'm not sure how easy it will be to claim, as i have known this plan is not easy to claim, and most people who have cancer are still "able" to work, but some of them choose not to in order to fully focus on treatment.

Given by the above, if the life insurered is found to be "still able to work", i don't think it will be easy to claim. Perhaps the experts here for DII can advice on this, as i'm personally interested to find out as well.

If it is indeed so easy to claim, then i supposed every insurers will sell DII instead of CI, and DII premiums will bound to increase sharply in time to come.

As for AXA Global Care, i would personally would advise against, despite representing AXA, because unless u can be sure it will be "worth" the premium paid, i would rather u spent/invest the premium elsewhere to prepare in case of anything happen.

Some companies have now come up with Cancer Insurance, whereby they may be able to accept some pre-existing or non-confirmed conditions. One such plan is GREAT Cancer Guard. You may want to look at such plan as well

 

[Aresden]

Hello all, I am still in the midst of finding out the definition of Crisis Cover Provider. Ultimately, I am deciding whether it should be cancelled or continued, any help/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Edit : I re-read https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/money-mind-210/should-i-cancel-my-paa-policy-3978378-2.html ,seems that the fund invested is bad


PruLink Assurance Account 1(Bought since 1990s)
ANB of insured person : 62
Premium:$100 per month , $1200 per annum
Death Cover: 30K
Crisis Cover Provider: $30K
Estimated Surrender Value: $0.
Fund Invested: PruLink Singapore Asian Managed
Fund.
- Not lapsed.
- Withdrawal of:
$6000- Jan 2005
$2300- April 2005
$1900- Jan 2008

PruLink Assurance Account 2(Also bought since 1990s)
ANB of insured person : 68
Premium:$100 per month , $1200 per annum
Death Cover : 45K
Crisis Cover Provider: 45K
Estimated Surrender Value as at 20/11/19:
$8812.12
Fund Invested: PruLink Singapore Asian Managed
Fund.
-Not lapsed.
-Withdrawal of $11K - June 2005

 

[BBCWatcher]

I had a border-line stage 0 cancer issue some 20 years ago during my late teens, went thru surgery & a round of chemo and was all cleared. The chemo was done as a sort of "just in case" treatment and might not even be necessary by today's standard. Cancer management was still quite primitive back in the 90s here in SG. On annual medical review since then and no issue for 2 decades already.

That's terrific, actually. You're alive!

I pretty much neglected insurance coverage of any sort all working life until about 4-5 years back (in my mid-30s) when I was CONvinced to purchase an ILP that had $200k advanced CI coverage with 1) 20-30% loading, 2) BUT excluded all cancers. I had that plan cancelled earlier this year when I saw the table of deductions. Basically by the time Im 60, if nothing goes wrong, I would have paid almost $200k premium for $200k of coverage and this is on the assumption that my "investment portion" can hit a 4% annual return. Its just one of those WTF moments when I wondered why didn't the agent just recommend a whole life plan instead.

Oh dear. Live and learn, I guess.

I have no issue getting term life insurance coverage, but had been rejected by one insurer so far for CI coverage because of this ancient cancer history. I have an integrated shield plan which covers up up till private hospital treatment with 0% co-payment, but of course cancer excluded.

Well, you're still covered up to MediShield Life limits for any future cancer treatment(s). In practice, if you have financial concerns (and who doesn't really?), that'd mean obtaining cancer-related treatment from the public medical sector, and always with the GP or polyclinic referrals to specialists so you land in the most subsidized wards.

Hence my question is: 1) Is it worth getting an international health plan for the cancer component? I know AXA offers such plans with no medical-underwriting required, but the annual premiums are pretty high though.

There's a difference between "no medical underwriting required" and "preexisting conditions are covered." You'd need the latter in order to consider such a plan. There are a very few such plans, but they're quite pricey.

There are a couple other options, though:

1. Give some extra attention to your MediSave Account to make sure it's well stocked, and of course greater wealth is always helpful. If you're able to make MediSave top ups for tax relief (i.e. have room below the CPF Annual Limit, and your MA hasn't reached the Basic Healthcare Sum), that'd probably be a good idea.

2. Work for an employer with good or better group medical insurance coverage. Group medical insurance covers pre-existing conditions.

3. If able in immigration terms, consider relocating to a country with good or better socialized medicine -- or at least with a medical insurance system that covers preexisting conditions at a reasonable cost. This might be part of your retirement plan, for example.

2) Is it worth trying for the CI and even early CI coverage with the other insurance companies when it seems disability income insurance seems sufficient? It just feel silly paying those expensive loading.

Probably not.

Regarding DII for CI, i'm not sure how easy it will be to claim, as i have known this plan is not easy to claim, and most people who have cancer are still "able" to work, but some of them choose not to in order to fully focus on treatment.

There's no DII claim available if you're able to work and earn a living. There are all kinds of reasons why you might voluntarily choose not to work despite being able to work. Cancer is only one of 1,000+ reasons. But now we're getting into the "Wouldn't it be nice to take a vacation from my employer?" scenarios. Yes, maybe taking a vacation would be nice, but "nice" must properly take lower priority for precious premium dollars than genuine insurance necessities.

 

[xtwis7]

CI (just critical stage) covers you for 36 very specific conditions. Anything beyond that, you’re not going to be covered.

Furthermore, Singaporeans seem to be getting increasingly stressed so mental well-being is a real concern here.

Once you’re clinically diagnosed with depression, your chance of getting employment is greatly reduced.

Mind elaborating on why DI is prioritised before CI?

 

[newjungle]

Anyone has idea of which medical insurance reimbursed 100% dialysis treatment at private dialysis Center? for ntuc enhanced incomeshield, only preferred plan provided 100% coverage, but premium for folk above 65 goes up ridiculously high.
Strange enough, ntuc incomeshield advantage will cover 100% dialysis treatment only if it is done at a hospital, which is indeed more costly than a dialysis Center!

 

[BBCWatcher]

Anyone has idea of which medical insurance reimbursed 100% dialysis treatment at private dialysis Center?

None of the currently available Integrated Shield plans and riders will cover 100% of that expense. All the riders available with those plans must now include at least a 5% co-pay up to a capped annual maximum of no less than S$3,000.

You've restricted your question to private dialysis providers. That'll require a plan with high coverage for care in the private medical sector. Raffles Shield offers a plan combination called Raffles Shield A with the Raffles Hospital Option and Key Rider. As long as the dialysis is provided specifically by Raffles (or a public medical provider) and is otherwise covered -- no preexisting condition limitations, for example -- then that'd likely be the lowest premium plan with such coverage, though not quite 100% coverage due to the 5% co-pay (capped at $3,000 per year).

I'm a little confused, though. Are you planning on double kidney failure? If you have kidney disease of any sort, that's a preexisting condition. Future dialysis would thus only be covered up to MediShield Life limits. Or are you concerned about a predisposition to kidney disease in your family, but you do not have currently have any signs, symptoms, or other causes for concern about your kidney function?

 

[tempestuous-]

Please advise!

Hi all, I admit I have been pretty YOLO about insurance. I am 32 this year and recently started thinking about insurance and savings seriously. A bit late on this, but better late than never, I hope?

My current monthly take-home pay is $4,800, excluding the bonuses.

I am thinking of the following:

• Health Insurance - I am inclined towards Raffles Shield A with Raffles Hospital option. Will be meeting an agent on this soon. I do not have pre-existing conditions.

• Term insurance - I am single, and my two parents are considered my dependents. I don't think they will be significantly affected, if I were to die before they do. But I'm hoping to purchase my own house soon, so in the event that I have a mortgage to pay, the pay-out will help to pay it off in my absence?
  
  (I also did the analysis on MoneyOwl and the system does not recommend me getting any term insurance.)
  
  For term insurance, will the MHA Group Term Life coverage amount of $500,000 suffice? The insurance covers both death and TPD. Annual premium will be $246. Or should I find a term insurance of my own?
  
  Group Living Care rider (for CI) coverage amount of $250,000 will cost an additional premium of $180.
  

• Disability Income Insurance - I was unable to add this as a rider to the MHA Group Term Life, as it was not offered as an option. Is it only me?
  
  Anyway, I checked out Aviva IdealIncome for coverage up to 65 years old, deferred period of 3 months, and escalating benefits. It worked out to be about $1,093 per annum.

Will appreciate your inputs on these. Thanks!

 

[Mr. Wood]

Hi all, I admit I have been pretty YOLO about insurance. I am 32 this year and recently started thinking about insurance and savings seriously. A bit late on this, but better late than never, I hope?

My current monthly take-home pay is $4,800, excluding the bonuses.

jsm!
mr wood work for over 10yr oso nowhere near u.
u are the kind of high flyers those scum agents shud go target instead of old folks near retiring age

• Health Insurance - I am inclined towards Raffles Shield A with Raffles Hospital option. Will be meeting an agent on this soon. I do not have pre-existing conditions.

COMPARISON OF INTEGRATED SHIELD PLANS
besides annual premium, also take note of their co-payment, deductibles, pre-and post-hospitalisation cover, coverage limit.

• Term insurance - I am single, and my two parents are considered my dependents. I don't think they will be significantly affected, if I were to die before they do. But I'm hoping to purchase my own house soon, so in the event that I have a mortgage to pay, the pay-out will help to pay it off in my absence?

purpose is to pay off mortgage loan? then just get home protection scheme. or a mortgage insurance.

 

[Plewee]

Do any of you know if DII is useful for a foreigner? Or would becoming disabled and thus unemployed just made me be “kicked out” of Singapore anyways? Would DII still pay even when I no longer have a right of residence here?

 

[BBCWatcher]

Health Insurance - I am inclined towards Raffles Shield A with Raffles Hospital option. Will be meeting an agent on this soon. I do not have pre-existing conditions.

You may also wish to consider their Key Rider.

If you have some decent or better group medical coverage from your employer, I'd probably skip the Raffles Hospital Option, then consider adding it later, after you lose employer-provided coverage.

Term insurance - I am single, and my two parents are considered my dependents. I don't think they will be significantly affected, if I were to die before they do. But I'm hoping to purchase my own house soon, so in the event that I have a mortgage to pay, the pay-out will help to pay it off in my absence?

(I also did the analysis on MoneyOwl and the system does not recommend me getting any term insurance.)

MoneyOwl is correct. You don't have any genuine dependents at the present time, and it doesn't matter that your home will be mortgaged. If you're dead, you won't be paying the mortgage. Whatever equity you've built up in the home will go to your heirs (your parents), but from your description their lifestyles are already well secured -- they don't genuinely need the money.

Skip the life insurance. When/if you have genuine dependents, take another look.

Group Living Care rider (for CI) coverage amount of $250,000 will cost an additional premium of $180.

This one is quite optional, and since you don't need any life insurance you wouldn't buy this particular rider anyway.

Disability Income Insurance - I was unable to add this as a rider to the MHA Group Term Life, as it was not offered as an option. Is it only me?

Not sure, but it's definitely worth investigating. If you need to have the MHA Group Term Life underneath, OK, take the minimum then add the DII rider and see what the total premium is -- and also check the policy letter, since this particular DII policy tends to be cheap but stingy. Certainly better than no DII, but it's not Singapore's highest quality DII, except perhaps its age 70 coverage term (which is unique in Singapore).

Anyway, I checked out Aviva IdealIncome for coverage up to 65 years old, deferred period of 3 months, and escalating benefits. It worked out to be about $1,093 per annum.

See if you can get a quote from Great Eastern's DII, 6 month deferral. Great Eastern seems to offer the highest quality DII policy available in Singapore.

purpose is to pay off mortgage loan? then just get home protection scheme. or a mortgage insurance.

I disagree. There's no life insurance need, and thus there's no mortgage insurance need either.

I think term life insurance is the much better choice if you need it. It's a super competitive market, so the premiums tend to be more reasonable (in value terms). And the survivor(s) have the choice how to use the life insurance proceeds. If they want to service the mortgage and keep the home, fine. If they want to sell the home to move closer to extended family members, downsize due to the absence of one deceased household member, move away from "bad memories" (some spouses just don't want to sleep in the same room where their deceased spouse died, and I can understand that!), or whatever, that's fine, too! They get to decide, and they're protected in their choices.

Mortgage insurance removes all these choices from survivors. It protects the bank, not necessarily the survivors. That partly explains why banks push that particular product so hard.

Do any of you know if DII is useful for a foreigner? Or would becoming disabled and thus unemployed just made me be “kicked out” of Singapore anyways? Would DII still pay even when I no longer have a right of residence here?

I replied to this question in the other thread, but the short answer is something like "Probably still quite useful and important, read the policy letter(s) carefully, and consider offshore DII alternatives."

 

[tempestuous-]

jsm!
mr wood work for over 10yr oso nowhere near u.
u are the kind of high flyers those scum agents shud go target instead of old folks near retiring age



COMPARISON OF INTEGRATED SHIELD PLANS
besides annual premium, also take note of their co-payment, deductibles, pre-and post-hospitalisation cover, coverage limit.




purpose is to pay off mortgage loan? then just get home protection scheme. or a mortgage insurance.

Not a high flyer. I'm doing OK. thanks for sharing the link!

 

[tempestuous-]

You may also wish to consider their Key Rider.

If you have some decent or better group medical coverage from your employer, I'd probably skip the Raffles Hospital Option, then consider adding it later, after you lose employer-provided coverage.


MoneyOwl is correct. You don't have any genuine dependents at the present time, and it doesn't matter that your home will be mortgaged. If you're dead, you won't be paying the mortgage. Whatever equity you've built up in the home will go to your heirs (your parents), but from your description their lifestyles are already well secured -- they don't genuinely need the money.

Skip the life insurance. When/if you have genuine dependents, take another look.


This one is quite optional, and since you don't need any life insurance you wouldn't buy this particular rider anyway.


Not sure, but it's definitely worth investigating. If you need to have the MHA Group Term Life underneath, OK, take the minimum then add the DII rider and see what the total premium is -- and also check the policy letter, since this particular DII policy tends to be cheap but stingy. Certainly better than no DII, but it's not Singapore's highest quality DII, except perhaps its age 70 coverage term (which is unique in Singapore).


See if you can get a quote from Great Eastern's DII, 6 month deferral. Great Eastern seems to offer the highest quality DII policy available in Singapore.


I disagree. There's no life insurance need, and thus there's no mortgage insurance need either.

I think term life insurance is the much better choice if you need it. It's a super competitive market, so the premiums tend to be more reasonable (in value terms). And the survivor(s) have the choice how to use the life insurance proceeds. If they want to service the mortgage and keep the home, fine. If they want to sell the home to move closer to extended family members, downsize due to the absence of one deceased household member, move away from "bad memories" (some spouses just don't want to sleep in the same room where their deceased spouse died, and I can understand that!), or whatever, that's fine, too! They get to decide, and they're protected in their choices.

Mortgage insurance removes all these choices from survivors. It protects the bank, not necessarily the survivors. That partly explains why banks push that particular product so hard.


I replied to this question in the other thread, but the short answer is something like "Probably still quite useful and important, read the policy letter(s) carefully, and consider offshore DII alternatives."

Thanks for the comments at length.

What if I become permanently disabled? How will I tide myself over until I die? With a term insurance, at least i get some amount of pay-out (on top of the monthly payout from the DII) and lessen the burden on my parents as I'm now going to be a dependent again to them. Does this make sense to get term insurance then?

 

[BBCWatcher]

What if I become permanently disabled? How will I tide myself over until I die? With a term insurance, at least i get some amount of pay-out (on top of the monthly payout from the DII) and lessen the burden on my parents as I'm now going to be a dependent again to them. Does this make sense to get term insurance then?

That's still disability insurance, and evidently you're thinking of the Total and Permanent Disability (TPD) element bundled with term life insurance. TPD pays a one-time lump sum if you're gravely, very seriously disabled.

No, it doesn't make much sense to buy term life insurance just to get its bundled TPD coverage. If you want to "top up" DII -- a reasonable thing to do at $4,800/month since you could have difficulty saving a portion of your DII payout -- then you should be looking at CareShield Life first (or its less attractive predecessor ElderShield, which is still available for the moment). Depending on when you were born you might be required to buy CSL starting in 2020 anyway.

However, please check whether CSL is "coordinated" with DII, which you really don't want, actually. What I mean is that you don't want your DII payout reduced because you're also receiving CSL payouts, by the amount of the CSL payout. I don't think that's how it works, but if it works that way then a little TPD could have some merit. (How much TPD? Enough to fund your CPF Special Account reasonably well, I'd say, since that'd nail down the age 65+ CPF LIFE income stream. Which isn't much, actually.)

 

[xtwis7]

You’ve actually pointed out something very valid. How ‘worthy’ is that person after becoming disabled and knowing most firms, foreigners who fall under this category may eventually be asked to return home.

Do any of you know if DII is useful for a foreigner? Or would becoming disabled and thus unemployed just made me be “kicked out” of Singapore anyways? Would DII still pay even when I no longer have a right of residence here?