Home network for older flats without LAN ports in the rooms

[xiaofan]

New HDB BTO flat is easier than the older HDB flat in terms of planning the home network.
1) They have LAN ports in the rooms. So worse case just add more APs or cheaper dual band Mesh with Ethernet backhaul.
2) The wall is not blocking wifi signals as badly as the older flats.

More discussions for BTO Flats here.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...-you-connect-your-home-fiber-network.4173602/
What about older HDB flats without LAN ports in the rooms?

Summary
1) All in all, the best is still to lay out Ethernet cables to the rooms (living room and the bed rooms). It may not be necessary to have LAN ports in every room, rather selected location may be good enough. Some people may even want to lay Fibre cable along with Ethernet cables at the same time to be more futute proof.

Potential cost involved: about S$150 per port for CAT 6 Cable (which is good for 10Gbps up to 55m, this should be good enough for a typical home setup in Singapore).
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...ing-new-ethernet-port-in-hdb-bedroom.7005363/

2) For some older flats, the ONT is in a relatively central location and they may be served by just one powerful wireless router if the expectation is not too high. This is especially true with powerful wireless router like Asus RT-AX86U Pro, GT-AX6000, GT-AX11000 Pro, etc.

A ceiling mount PoE AP can also be considered to place in a central location.

You can also try to be creative and then hang a consumer wireless router in a central location even if the ONT is not in a central location.

3) Using Moca adapters are another good option if Cable infrastructure is available at home. Up to 2.5Gbps as of now. Future Moca 3.0 adapters may be up to 10Gbps.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/moca-network-setup-ethernet-over-tv-cable.5675388/
G.hn2 over Coax cable may be up to 10Gbps as well.

Reference:
https://broadbandlibrary.com/a-preview-of-10g-enabling-technologies/

4) If the above two are not an option, then triband mesh solution can be a good one. Usually two pack or three pack will be good enough for the flat. Triband AX routers are still pretty expensive too, eg, Netgear Orbi RBK752/753, RBK852/853, Asus Zenwifi XT8 and Linksys Velop MX4200. Cheap option includes TP-Link Deco X68 and X75.

Dual band mesh solution may be used if the placement of the second node (and/or the 3rd node) can be accommodated.

No matter it is triband or dual band mesh solution, the mesh node needs to have good connection to the main node. The best is to have line of sight. If not, at most one wall in between.

How to choose a mesh solution?
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/how-to-choose-a-mesh-router.6452151/

5) Singtel FTTR is a new solution if you are willing to pay for it.
https://www.singtel.com/personal/products-services/broadband/fibre-everywhere-fttr

6) Power line adapters can be used as well if the requirement is lower (usually 100Mbps to 300 Mbps).

This is now mainly used as a low cost alternative for more proper solution.

Mesh solution using PowerLine as the backhaul is a potential solution as well.

7) Wireless Media bridge or repeater can also be used if it is applicable.

This can be used as a supplement to the other solutions.

 

[xiaofan]

Pretty good YouTube video about wifi setup in typical Singapore household, including one Unifi AP sertup.

 

[xiaofan]

For some older flats, the ONT is in a relatively central location and they may be served by just one powerful wireless router if the expectation is not too high. Then people may use range extender (wireless repeater) or power line adapters for a few weak spots.

However, some older flats can be more difficult. The ONT may be located in one corner of the flat and then you have rooms in the other corner with very weak signal if you have only one router in the ONT location.

Better solution is still to lay Ethernet cables, if not you may have to use more expensive triband mesh solution (two pack or three pack).

And actually sometimes it is not necessary to lay Ethernet cables to every room (even though it is good). It is possible just yo have one cable from the ONT location to a central location in the living room. So either one main AP or two APs (or dual band mesh 2-pack ) can usually sort out the wifi coverage

Ceiling mount AP like Unifi AP has an advantage here if people is willing to invest in the Unifi ecosystem (Unifi PoE switch and AP, router can be from other vendors or DIY pfsense mini PC router).

 

[xiaofan]

Example of a difficult floor plan (without LAN ports in the rooms) from Netgear Singapore/Malaysia YouTube channel.

ONT and main router node are in a very bad location. So they have to use three node triband Orbi RBK753 which is pretty expensive.

 

[xiaofan]

Easier ones from Netgear. They use the RBK353 and actually RBK352 may be good enough (skip the mesh node in the bedroom).

 

[TanKianW]

Pretty good YouTube video about wifi setup in typical Singapore household, including one Unifi AP sertup.

One of my family members recently just moved to an "older" but bigger resale flat without data points but has SCV point in the MBR. What I setup for them is 2x second hand APs (Wave 1 AC not AX, from Ebay), a small J4125 box (8/128 from taobao) on pfsense, 2x MoCA units (from Amazon), a managed 8 port TP-link switch (from Challenger) and a router plastic cabinet from taobao to house them in the DB. Covers the whole house pretty well with no dead spots.​

 

[xiaofan]

A bit of summary if the flat can not be served by a single router, or if you want to have Ethernet access in some rooms.

1) All in all, the best is still to lay out Ethernet cables to the rooms (living room and the bed rooms). As mentioned, it may not be necessary to have LAN ports in every room, rather selection location may be good enough.

2) Using Moca adapters are another good option if Cable infrastructure is available at home.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/moca-network-setup-ethernet-over-tv-cable.5675388/
3) If the above two are not an option, then triband mesh solution can be a good one. Usually two pack or three pack will be good enough for the flat. Triband AX routers are still pretty expensive too, eg, Netgear Orbi RBK752/753, RBK852/853, Asus Zenwifi XT8 and Linksys Velop MX4200.

4) Dual band mesh solution may be used if the placement of the second node (and/or the 3rd node) can be accommodated. The best is to have line of sight. If not, at most one wall in between. The second mesh node needs to have good connection to the main node.

5) Power line adapters can be used as well if the requirement is lower (usually 100Mbps to 300 Mbps).

6) Wireless Media bridge or repeater can also be used if it is applicable.

 

[xiaofan]

Reference on choosing mesh router.

Good ones:
1) You may have to go with triband if you can not use Ethernet backhaul.
Triband AX: Netgear Orbi RBK752/753, RBK852/853, Linksys Velop MX4200, Asus Zenwifi XT8, TP-Link Deco X68/X75/X90/X95. Tri-band AX routers are in general not cheap.
Triband AC: Netgear Orbi RBK50, Asus Zenwifi CT8, TP-Link Deco M9+

2) You can use cheaper dual band if you can use Ethernet backhaul.
Dual band AX: Asus AIMesh like RT-AX86U + RT-AX82U/58U/56U/55; Asus Zenwif XD6/XD4, Netgear RBK352/353; TP-Link Deco X20/X60

Dual band AC: not that recommended now unless you have low budget, in that case, you can consider TP-Link Deco M4 and M5

3) Niche use case: TP-Link Deco P9 with Powerline backhaul for very difficult floor plan

You can go to the following thread for more details.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/how-to-choose-a-mesh-router.6452151/

 

[xiaofan]

Reference for choosing an AX router.

1) Budget low S$100: example options
Huawei AX3 quad core global version is the best value router at S$58 from official Huawei Lazada/Shopee shop, with local warranty but out of stock now. Usual price S$98 but most often selling at lower price. But right now it is out of stock.

Redmi AX3000 and Xiaomi AX3000 China version (not for SingTel ONT users) can be considered as well if you do not mind no local warranty.

Other options with local warranty.
TP-Link Archer AX20 at around S$89
D-Link DIR-X1840 at around S$89

2) Budget S$100 to S$200: example options
If you can still get Xiaomi AX3600 local or China version at reasonable price. That is the best value router if you can get it around S$120 to S$150. Take note Xiaomi has stopped the production of Xiaomi AX3600.

Xiaomi AX6000 can be considered as well if you do not mind no local warranty (not for SingTel ONT users). Price is around S$172 from Lazada. It is not as good as Xiaomi AX3600 as a router (slower CPU and no SSH access) but it is a better AP than Xiaomi AX3600.

Asus RT-AX56U AX1800 can be considered if you need more FW features and long term support. During promotion, RT-AX58U AX3000 may be just below S$200.

Other options with local warranty:
TP-Link Archer AX73 AX5400 at around S$179.
D-Link DIR-X5460 AX5400 at around S$159.

3) Budget between S$200 to S$300, example options.
RT-AX82U AX5400 promotion price from Courts at around S$240 will be a good buy. Usual price is on the high side at around S$329.

Asus RT-AX58U and Asus TUF-AX3000 can be considered as well if you can not get the Courts promotion for the RT-AX82U.

4) Budget around S$300 to S$500, example options
a) Asus RT-AX86U AX5700 is the best value if you get the special edition from Courts promotion at around S$320. But it is said that Courts has run out of future stocks. So you may have to get it elsewhere and the price will be higher at around S$419 fo the special edition. Normal version is still exclusive to Singtel as of now.

b) Asus RT-AX88U can be an option as well if you need 8 LAN ports

c) Xiaomi AX9000 triband at S$399 local version is also an interesting buy.

d) Wired pfSense router + AX APs: not a pure AX router but a wired router + AX AP option, you can pair the wired router with cheap AX routers running in AP mode (eg: those listed in the below S$200 categories). Total budget will be around S$400 to S$500

Wired router option: Mini PC using Intel J4105 or better, with 4 or more LAN ports, 8GB RAM and 256 GB SSD are priced within the range of S$200 to S$300. It can be a good option to run pfSense more than enough. And if you do not want to use it as a router you can still run Winodws or Linux (very smooth for Linux).

5) Budget between S$500 to S$1000, example options
a) Probably not necessary for a single router, unless you want to go for things like GT-AX11000 (around S$659), RT-AX89X or the new GT-AX6000 (not available in SG yet).

b) But you can consider two router AIMesh solution like RT-AX86U + RT-AX82U; or RT-AX86U + Zenwifi XD4/XD6

c) AX mesh solution: Asus Zenwifi XT8 dual pack, or Netgear Orbi RBK852 or RBK753

d) pfSense mini PC (S$200 to S$300) + Unifi PoE switch + Unifi AX AP (U6-Lite at S$149 or U6-LR at S$279)

e) Ubiquiti UDM (S$469) + 8-port Unifi PoE switch + one Unifi AX AP (U6-Lite at S$149 or U6-LR at S$279), if yiiu want to go for the fulll Unifi solution

6) Above S$1000, examples only, not want to spend so much myself.

a) AIMesh solution -- GT-AX11000 + Zenwifi XT8 dual pack, both are tri-band AX

b) pfSense mini PC (S$200 to S$300) + better Unifi PoE switch + two Unifi AX AP (U6-Lite at S$149 or U6-LR at S$279)

c) If you are going to full Unifi route, then you can consider Unifi Dream Machine Pro (S$589 from official Ubiquiti Singapore store) wired router, plus better Unifi PoE switch and two Unifi AX APs (U6-Lite at S$149 or U6-LR at S$279)

Please go to the following thread for more up-to-date recommendations.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/ax-router-recommendations.6477403/

 

[xiaofan]

Sharing my own experiences (from the RT-AX86U/RT-AX82U thread) -- my floor plan is not too bad.

My Floor Plan is similar to this one.

Take note I have not set up LAN ports in the rooms for my flat even though I have thought about it from time to time. Right now I am pretty happy with my RT-AX82U in terms of full 5GHz coverage -- above 600Mbps in the living room and around 200-300Mbps in the weak spots in my 106sqm 4-room HDB flat. I am still using Power Line adapters for some of my stuff (maker boards and Android TV boxes).

Before I got the RT-AX82U, the weak spots are the two bath rooms, far point in the Master Bedroom (where the powerline adapter is) and Bedroom 1 (used to have a powerline adapter as well) and the Yard area.

Wireless routers like Huawei AX3 Pro and Singtel Mesh Router can only provide 2.4GHz coverage to some of the weak spots. Then my previous main router Linksys WRT-1900AC (2014-2020) will struggle because of weak 2.4GHz performance. Living room and Bedroom 2 have always been good, and probably half of the Master bedroom and Bedroom 1.

Right now I have two seperate home networks.

1) FTP -- Singtel ZTE ONT -- TP-Link TL-SG105E Smart Switch (VLAN capable).

2) Network 1 (one public IPv4 address)
TL-SG105E -- Asus RT-AX82U (5Ghz wifi only, with Entware) -- SIngtel TV Box
RT-AX82U -- Power line adapter main unit -- Power line adapters in the rooms.

3) Network 2 (another public IPv4 address)
TL-SG105E -- Raspberry Pi 400 running OpenWRT -- Singtel Mesh Router in AP mode (2.4GHz/5GHz single SSID).

4) Intel J4105 Mini PC with 4 LAN ports running Ubuntu connected to both networks so that I can easily use it for speedtest (using iperf3, librespeed, netperf, etc) and other network performance testing. I also run tools on the two routers as well.

Update: I upgraded from RT-AX82U to RT-AX86U in Decemeber 2022.

 

[xiaofan]

I was using Linksys WRT-1900AC as my main router for 6 years plus (2014 to 2020). It has decent 5GHz performance but weak 2.4GHz performance. I tried different methods to boost the wifi coverage before settling for better routers.

1) Range extenders: TP-Link RE350 and RE305, they can be faster than the power line adapters in the Bedroom 2 (as "wireless adapter" for my old desktop, maker boards and Android TV boxes).

2) Power line adapters without wireless: D-Link AV2000 adapters x 4 units. They are useful for the wired clients (100-250Mbps in different rooms in my case). For wireless client, I also tried to use RE350 as an AP in the master room. It kind of worked but performance is lower due to the limitation of power line adapters (around 100-150Mbps in my master room). I am still using the power line adapters now.

3) TP-Link Deco M4 together with the power line adapters (pseudo Ethernet backhaul). This one works but with the limitation of the power line adapters (100...250Mbps). I no longer use this one as RT-AX82U is good enough.

4) Using Huawei AX3 Pro or Singtel Mesh router as the wireless AP: better than the aging WRT1900AC but still not full coverage of the flat with 5Ghz band. Both of them can provide 2.4GHz full coverage. I still keep Singtel Mesh Router for 2.4GHz legacy clients as I disable 2.4GHz on my RT-AX82U.

 

[firesong]

I ran my own cabling for the flat as I had the energy some years back. If you have the time and energy and know how (it's actually not that difficult if you're capable with your hands and can follow some simple colour diagrams to install keystone jacks and crimp the heads as needed), it's about a 4h job to run ethernet cabling from a central location (where the optical terminal/ONT is) to the switch. If you don't have the energy, time, or knowledge, then feel free to engage contractors to do it - but it'll cost quite a bit at $100+ per line run. You could get it cheaper if you plan ahead, or when you do it along with the electrical runs as part of the renovation job before moving in - since it'll be a full wiring quote rather than individual runs. Part of the cost comes from having to patch through the wall - I ran the cables alongside power cables for these sections to reuse the holes, and cos I didn't want to have to hack extra holes. The contractor will do this for you as part of the installation costs.

It really takes a bit of planning because you need to run multiple cables from the switch to branch out to the rest of the home. I ran one line to the TV console, one line to each bedroom. Starhub ran one line for me from the DB box to the TV console (so I have 2 lines to the TV console, one for TV and one for a Switch there that interconnects multiple devices).

Do note that Singtel/Starhub TV can run a complimentary cable when you first sign up and opt to install a TV service in a bedroom. Only one run as additional runs are at cost, so if you decide to use this to help lay a line like some of my friends did, plan it carefully. Also, they always use the cheapest Cat 5e cables and will not terminate to a keystone so factor that in - it's still good enough for Gigabit ethernet but will not serve you if you want to move to 10Gbps networks in future.

 

[xiaofan]

It is definitely easier to carry out the cabling during renovation.

Unfortunately I knew next to nothing about Ethernet cabling at the time when we bought the hdb flat in 2004. We actually did not do any renovation work before moving in as the previous owner did the renovation in 2002 and we were happy with what they had done. We subscribed to Starhub Cable Online and Singtel analog telephone line at that time. We were okay with the Linksys WRT54G router since we only have a few devices which need internet access, basically the desktop and laptop only. We were still using the Nokia feature phones at that time.

Right now I am reluctant to carry out cabling work as it is rather troublesome even though I do not mind paying for contractor to do the work. I feel that the gain is marginal for our use cases. For our use cases, there is actually no difference between 300Mbps to 600Mbps (using wireless) versus 900Mbps (using wired) as we do not download stuffs so often. And the bottleneck is often the international bandwidth and not the WiFi speed limit.

BTW, I read some people can use the existing Coaxial cable infrastructure to pull Ethernet cables across. That is also an interesting idea but I dare not to do that myself.

Maybe I can live with WiFi 6 and later WiFi 7 and do not need to lay Ethernet cables...

 

[keenklee]

It is definitely easier to carry out the cabling during renovation.

Unfortunately I knew next to nothing about Ethernet cabling at the time when we bought the hdb flat in 2004. We actually did not do any renovation work before moving in as the previous owner did the renovation in 2002 and we were happy with what they had done. We subscribed to Starhub Cable Online and Singtel analog telephone line at that time. We were okay with the Linksys WRT54G router since we only have a few devices which need internet access, basically the desktop and laptop only. We were still using the Nokia feature phones at that time.

Right now I am reluctant to carry out cabling work as it is rather troublesome even though I do not mind paying for contractor to do the work. I feel that the gain is marginal for our use cases. For our use cases, there is actually no difference between 300Mbps to 600Mbps (using wireless) versus 900Mbps (using wired) as we do not download stuffs so often. And the bottleneck is often the international bandwidth and not the WiFi speed limit.

BTW, I read some people can use the existing Coaxial cable infrastructure to pull Ethernet cables across. That is also an interesting idea but I dare not to do that myself.

Maybe I can live with WiFi 6 and later WiFi 7 and do not need to lay Ethernet cables...

HDB says the electrical PVC cable can last for approximately 25 years if not sooner.

 

[xiaofan]

HDB says the electrical PVC cable can last for approximately 25 years if not sooner.

Good point.

My flat was built in 1998 so it will be 2023 for me to check based on the average life span of 25 years as stated in the HDB website. But I guess most people are not checking if not got problems.

+++++++++++++++
https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/...-care-guide/electrical-accessories-and-wiringYour flat’s electrical wiring has a limited lifespan. The estimated average lifespan of a PVC electrical cable is approximately 25 years.

You are advised to replace the electrical wiring in your flat when its lifespan is over or when its condition has deteriorated. A licensed electrical worker (LEW) will be able to check the conditions of the wirings and advise whether the wiring needs to be replaced.

When carrying out the electrical re-wiring and on completion, your appointed LEW is required to submit an SP Services Ltd (SPSL) form CS/5H endorsed by us to SPSL and apply for testing of the completed works.
+++++++++++++++

 

[keenklee]

Good point.

My flat was built in 1998 so it will be 2023 for me to check based on the average life span of 25 years as stated in the HDB website. But I guess most people are not checking if not got problems.

+++++++++++++++
https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/...-care-guide/electrical-accessories-and-wiringYour flat’s electrical wiring has a limited lifespan. The estimated average lifespan of a PVC electrical cable is approximately 25 years.

You are advised to replace the electrical wiring in your flat when its lifespan is over or when its condition has deteriorated. A licensed electrical worker (LEW) will be able to check the conditions of the wirings and advise whether the wiring needs to be replaced.

When carrying out the electrical re-wiring and on completion, your appointed LEW is required to submit an SP Services Ltd (SPSL) form CS/5H endorsed by us to SPSL and apply for testing of the completed works.
+++++++++++++++

IMHO.
If the existing is concealed, the challenge would be whether to hack out everything and conceal back or lay externally. Maybe every 20 years move house once ?

 

[xiaofan]

IMHO.
If the existing is concealed, the challenge would be whether to hack out everything and conceal back or lay externally. Maybe every 20 years move house once ?

I will just lay externally in that case. We already faced such decision point 4 years after moving in (in 2008). And it was worse than Ethernet trunking. We need to redo the Aircon trunking due to the piping leaks of the existing ones. So we replaced the aircon and did the new trunking externally (by Gain City as they offered 5 year warranty for the job) because we did not want to touch the false ceiling.

 

[xiaofan]

Nice example from the other thread.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...fiber-network.4173602/page-122#post-138155265

if possible, make sure that there is light-of-sight between the nodes.

if using wireless backhual, use tri-band mesh router. Dual band might work, but the speed is not so good.

your proposed placement might work, after the installation, bring your handphone, run speedtest (by ookla) and check the speed at all corners in the flat, especially your MBR . If the speed is not good enough for you, change the locations of the nodes.

in the first place, you need to know how fast is good for you. if you run network without ethernet backhual, it is not easy to get more than 500Mbps, so your plan is 1Gbps or higher, then it is a waste. if your use only handphone in the MBR, then 50Mbps in the MBR should be good enough.

if speed is not good enough, consider (refer to the pic)
1. A C F
2. D E F
3. D G C

 

[qweiopertyu]

Nice example from the other thread.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...fiber-network.4173602/page-122#post-138155265

I just realised that initially i posted in the wrong thread - in the new BTO setup thread, my bad.

I spent almost the whole day reading up more about these and still i am actually very confused.

I've confirmed that i need a tri band for better performance since i am using wireless backhaul. However, i do not know which mesh to get.

I don't game, i only use internet for mainly shows and surfing the net and trying to get a mesh at the most reasonable price for a layman.

1. Do i need Wifi 6?
Deco M9 Plus keeps being mentioned but it is wifi 5?
Deco X68 is also mentioned and it is wifi 6

2. For Deco M9 i also read that i am unable to choose 5GHz or 2.4 GHz unless i do some settings but i'm afraid by changing, things like my robot vacuum cannot run since it uses 2.4GHz? I generally use 5GHz because it is supposed faster.

3. I also see many comments saying one can try to get a 2 pack and then add on when necessary. However, i don't see the Deco X68 selling for 1 pack?
https://www.tp-link.com/sg/home-networking/deco/deco-x68/v1 (2-pack)/
4. If there are other mesh that are better, please recommend.

Thanks.

 

[xiaofan]

I just realised that initially i posted in the wrong thread - in the new BTO setup thread, my bad.

I spent almost the whole day reading up more about these and still i am actually very confused.

I've confirmed that i need a tri band for better performance since i am using wireless backhaul. However, i do not know which mesh to get.

I don't game, i only use internet for mainly shows and surfing the net and trying to get a mesh at the most reasonable price for a layman.

1. Do i need Wifi 6?
Deco M9 Plus keeps being mentioned but it is wifi 5?
Deco X68 is also mentioned and it is wifi 6

2. For Deco M9 i also read that i am unable to choose 5GHz or 2.4 GHz unless i do some settings but i'm afraid by changing, things like my robot vacuum cannot run since it uses 2.4GHz? I generally use 5GHz because it is supposed faster.

3. I also see many comments saying one can try to get a 2 pack and then add on when necessary. However, i don't see the Deco X68 selling for 1 pack?
https://www.tp-link.com/sg/home-networking/deco/deco-x68/v1 (2-pack)/

1) Wifi 5 mesh can be used and review of TP-Link Deco M9+ is not bad. For AC triband mesh, Netgear Orbi RBK50 is pretty good and then there is also Asus Zenwifi CT8.

But personally I would go for AX mesh solution if budget allows to be a bit more future proof.

2) Usually there should be no issue with 2,4GHz client. But in case it does not work, you can create a guest network (with 2.4GHz only band) for your robot vacuum)
https://www.tp-link.com/sg/support/faq/1460/
3) Yes that seems to be true that TP-Link does not sell single Deco X68.
They do sell tri-pack.
https://www.hachi.tech/biz-solution...ome-mesh-wifi-60--6935364010201?a=1,0,0&p=549
On the other hand, if you buy a Deco X68 dual pack, and then you do not get good performance in the master bedroom, you may use a single Deco X20 as the last node with some reduction of performance.