Profitable Group - is it credible?

[cacwai]

What is the difference between 95% or 99.97% chance of losing your entire investment in land plots?

[B]Note[/B] development chances of...-Banking.?p=56159&viewfull=1#post56159"]here and here would put the chance of success in in the range of 0.03% (1 in 3,750) to 0.0004% (1 in 250,000). Basically no chance at all.

This site here says 1% chance in more than 20 years "The sad truth is the plots of land sold by Land Banking firms have about a 1% chance of receiving planning permission over the next 20+ years. Although of course the land banking firm will give the impression that planning permission will soon be granted."

Does it matter whether the chances of development is 5% or 0.03%? Question really is - if you knew that there is a 95% or 99.95% chance you will lose your money instead of realizing this 250%-300% estimated return, would you have invested in this gamble?

Probably not for 99.9995% of the people PG approached! The point is, they have never been forthcoming and transparent about the green belt conservation status of the land they were selling, the the true risks involved in the investment - and that is what makes this whole thing cheating and the activity criminal! Yes, majority of us who bought the land plots have been mis-sold on these lack of details and these untruths. Question is can you take them to court of it.

 

[Yorixz]

gone are he monies...

 

[GeorgeBoron]

PG projects and odd of winning the case

I see there are many of us invested in different PG projects but we are not all aware of the project other people invested. So i thought it would be useful to give a brief description of each project so as everyone would follow up. Also I feel it is more appropriate for group actions, to form groups around each project and not as a whole (of course an investor having participation in multiple projects can fall part in multive groups) as each project has different legal approach to claim back your rights.

1. Cordord village:
You buy units in that and wait till land is given planning permission to get a fixed return back. There is no anual fixed returns till the permission is given.

I have no participated in that but this is what i believe the case is.

2. Borron bond:
You invest an amount after after 6 month you can claim back 12.5% plus your capital. PG are contractually obliged to deliver that in contrast to Concord village that the delivery of returns is based on the planning permission.

3. Philippines land (VIP Plots)
You invest multiple of 18,888GBP and if land is sold to a developer you get back around 25,000GBP otherwise at the end of every year PG is contractually obliged to pay you 12.5% interest.

From 1 to 3 the possibility to win a case in the court is easier. 1 (concord) is very difficult. You need to proove fraud to win the case;PG misleading investors to buy something that was green belt land and hiding the fact from them. Contractually PG cannot be sued. They have no obligation to deliver any return unless the condition of planning permission happens.

For case 3 very easily you can demand your interest against PG in the court as they are contractually obliged to deliver. Issue is the legal costs. However, when you win, you recover them.

For case 2, is slightly more complicated but legally we can pursue our claims. Is not our fault their clients have not yet paid them to get our money money. We just need to force the payment.

I am a fund manager and have been investing long terms in various projects. There were cases we had to find our rights in the court in the past. CAD can help if there is a fraud. In that case it is CAD to take all the costs friends and they will keep you posted to follow up with your claims. If CAD finds fraud they will pursue in the courts the directors and the company will be asked to pay. If they fail to do so, they will force a liquidator on the company. He will keep you all posted to submit your claims and you will be paid after about 2 years time on the proceedings of the liquidatiion pro rate on your claim amount.

In my case in the past I won a case against a similar problem but the liquidations proceeds were so little that i get no money back at all. However we did manage to close the company and liquidate it plus a warrant of arrest was issued against the director that flew the country and he is still under search...

Last, PG is still viable. They really wait something to come up in the next 9 months or so in the philippines. we are not in that very bad situation as if we deal with a scam. If they succeed in that deal or they win the case against the philippines government then we stand better chances to start seeing some money back. There is certainly something in the philippines but not sure how much time we should give them. Towards the end of the year we can tell more. Would not wait beyond that...

 

[Yorixz]

They r profitable themselves

 

[probono]

AAA plots ?

So i thought it would be useful to give a brief description of each project so as everyone would follow up.

Very useful. The one that is missing is AAA plots. Or are they the same as VIP plots ?

Last, PG is still viable. They really wait something to come up in the next 9 months or so in the philippines. we are not in that very bad situation as if we deal with a scam.

What documentary proof do you have that there is a real deal in the Philippines ? Sorry to be cynical but look at all the people who thought that Concorde Village would get planning permission in 18 months, or Cherry Tree Grove would get planning approval on appeal, or a shipment of Boron to Dubai would get paid in 3 months. Were any of those things real ?

There is always some future event promised to keep you hanging on but none of them have ever happened.

Wait 9 months and you could be rich. Or it could be all the money and directors will be offshore where you cant touch them.

 

[GeorgeBoron]

Probono,

I do not know about the AAA project. I only know it is in philippines. I initiated this discussion thought so as people with different projects come infront and speak.Somebody holding investment in AAA should remind us about the features again. I think PG also promisses 12.5% per year judging from the description in PG portal...So I would clasify them as same category like the VIP plot. Let someone confirm...

About Concord when PG approached me a year ago i made an analysis and i prooved to them that this was green belt area saying why you promote land in such an zone...? They came back with a sofisticated report trying to reject that. I did not pay any attention to them and did not invest. But now we are all affected by this.

I do believe something is going on in philippines though instead and PG is waiting something out of this. That is my personal feeling based on various factors but yes it may never be done deal. Can expand on private messages on that sofoklis75@hotmail.com based on some discussions i had with the PG management.

For Concord how I see the model working (my personal opinion) is they buy the land at pennies...let us say 1 SGD the unit. They then sell to us 40 SGD the unit for example. They make 4000% profit and they use that hug profits in some other projects that may be profitable. People invested in Concord village i am afraid they are stuck. Only hope is after 15 years the land may be given some permission.Hope this are better but the above is my informal understanding

 

[concernedbro]

Concerned bro

Hi all...actuali i didn't buy any of the PP stuff but my elder bro did...he was very concerned as he had some boron and also a plot of concord village land.His boron was supposed to mature January this year but as u guys prob will know,nothing happened.Recently he met his new (3rd since 07) PP rep, some one by the name of Jamal. I was shocked when my bro told me he actuali extended his boron to Dec this yr cause Jamal told him that PP will have money by end of the yr.My bro usually is quite a level-headed guy but somehow this Jamal guy managed to brainwash him to extend his boron contract.Just want to check if anyone here had this Jamal guy as rep and also want to warn others esp. malay/muslims investors cause my bro told me this Jamal guy had this pious look to him.Honestly I think its bull lah and my bro shud just write off his money...Thanks

 

[Commander Keen]

Done believe a word

I do believe something is going on in philippines though instead and PG is waiting something out of this. That is my personal feeling based on on some discussions i had with the PG management.

Suggest you look at the number of people that were promised the Philippines deal or Boron deal was going to happen in June 10. Now you say its December based on a conversation you had with PG management. "Special" Inside track information not written down is what all scams, ponzies whatever rely on. If this deal is so certain then the plots should already be worth more. Profitable Employees should be calling investors and borrowing money to buy the plots back.

For Concord how I see the model working (my personal opinion) is they buy the land at pennies...let us say 1 SGD the unit. They then sell to us 40 SGD the unit for example. They make 4000% profit and they use that hug profits in some other projects that may be profitable. People invested in Concord village i am afraid they are stuck. Only hope is after 15 years the land may be given some permission.Hope this are better but the above is my informal understanding

Concorde Village was advertised on national TV, shows etc with estimated 3 year returns. That advert was a clear lie. That should be evidence enough for any court case.

 

[bbchan]

Dear all,

If you have invested in land banking or similar products (AAA or Boron) and wish to join the action group, please send an e-mail to petition_on_landbanking@yahoo.com.

Thank you.

 

[GeorgeBoron]

Getting organized...

What we need to be doing is create a group in facebook. Private only to victims of PG. Somebody needs to volunteer as secretary. People to send him scan copies of contracts with PG to be granted access to the group so as to avoid a spy or wrong people on board.Meaning that only people in the group can read our comments or action points and nobody else will have access to that. Not like now in the open forum.

Then we need to appoint one representative for CAD. All requests questions should go to him and only him should communicate to CAD. CAD would prefer us working this way and they will provide us any solid updates they have from time to time. CAD will appoint an agent for the case. We can approach this agent and tell him Mr. X is our representative to give him periodical updates. All that is possible.Before going to CAD is good to analyse for more evidence there is a fraud. Like the ase that no big orders were placed from PG to the boron producer.

Certainly a good upcoming deal in the phillipines is only an assumption but not certain fact and we cannot base on assumptions

 

[probono]

Who are you ?

What we need to be doing is create a group in facebook. Private only to victims of PG. Not like now in the open forum.
Then we need to appoint one representative for CAD. All requests questions should go to him and only him should communicate to CAD.
Certainly a good upcoming deal in the phillipines is only an assumption

George do you work for Profitable Group? It has taken a long time to get Profitable Group concerns out in the open. The CAD has had many contacts and nothing done yet. Only Hardware Zone and TKL were brave enough to publish and leave concerns up to the start of this year. Profitable Group even threatened TKL with legal action. Now Profitable Group are on the MAS investor alert list more people are willing to speak out about them, and the press are willing to publish stories about them. Now you want make all discussions private and controlled. There are a number of people on this forum who have said they have been prevented from making a mistake by reading about it here. The more people that know the less peopler are likely they are to get cheated.

I dont believe there is any "good upcoming deal" in the Philippines. If there is it will only give benefit to Profitable Group themselves. There may be a few token payments to keep the most vocal local people quiet.

I believe in the long run most customers will never see their money back.
Get it now while you can.

 

[anatolian]

George do you work for Profitable Group? It has taken a long time to get Profitable Group concerns out in the open. The CAD has had many contacts and nothing done yet. Only Hardware Zone and TKL were brave enough to publish and leave concerns up to the start of this year. Profitable Group even threatened TKL with legal action. Now Profitable Group are on the MAS investor alert list more people are willing to speak out about them, and the press are willing to publish stories about them. Now you want make all discussions private and controlled. There are a number of people on this forum who have said they have been prevented from making a mistake by reading about it here. The more people that know the less people are likely they are to get cheated.

I dont believe there is any "good upcoming deal" in the Philippines. If there is it will only give benefit to Profitable Group themselves. There may be a few token payments to keep the most vocal local people quiet.

I believe in the long run most customers will never see their money back.
Get it now while you can.

Actually I agree having an exclusive forum that are visible only for PG investor. Our current public forum can be kept alive; however, there are information that I can't make public. For example, I will never disclose any information to this link http://profitable-group-victims.blogspot.com/ (no offense to the blog's owner). I think this forum has done enough to give alert to new investors. The next step should be to recover the current situation for current investors.

 

[GeorgeBoron]

I agree with Anatolian,
Probono this forum stays live to bring more people our facebook group and act as a public awareness. In facebook we will be discussing our next actions. Some things are confidential and we cannot be discussing here. I am very much experienced -UNFORTUNATELY- with such cases. Have had similiar experience in the past and we proceeded in action against the company with the help of CAD.

When things will progress, CAD will disallow us discussing many things in open. For instance we should not refer to the CAD agent name or contact details over here. But in facebook all that can be disclosed.

Also it is not in our benefit some PG people know what is our next action. Plus there are many people here post without us verifying the accuracy of that or if they relate to our problem. Unfortuanately i am busy to volunteer for any role but i can provide guidance on the next steps. Group action is the second step; first is to get organized and act efficiently. For this i propose to all of us the following:
1. Someone needs to volunteer to open a private group for this in facebook. Anyone has knowledge AND time of doing so?
2. When done everybody has to open a simple Facebook account and connect to that group. Only people in that group can read the messages. If not facebook that can be also a yahoo group.. I need someone from this forum to volunteer on this task. The initial group of 12 had a fist type of organization. A secretary was appointed among them. Can this person come forward and take this role therefore? If not anyone to volunteer?
3. For joining the group (either facebook or yahoo one) the secretary to generate the group needs to receive by email scanned copies of your PG contracts that were no honoured. You can also fax or hand over personally if convenient. This will verify you and grant you access to the group.
4. Gradually more people will be joining the group and having the original scanned copies of their investment contracts we can assess how much is the overall claim.
5. People with contracts matured and not paid have the option to fill a police report with CAD. I would give PG a few more months time before filling a police report but everyone is free to act as he wants. When CAD receives many reports they will act. In the beginning the number of complaints is not so big plus other issues making CAD not to act the way we want to.
6. CAD will appoint an agent for all those cases when many people come forward and fill reports with them. We need to appoint a Leader/representative to communicate with the CAD agent and update the rest of us. In the beginning we can send to CAD a representation committee of some of us. But at the end 1 person is to be our contact point. This to be decided in a group meeting or after discussions in our Facebook group.
7. An ongoing task is to look for evidence against PG. I have a list of potential evidences. We can all share our findings in the Facebook group. Our work-our evidences may help CAD charge PG with fraud and then they will take all legal expenses to sue PG at court and our money will get back to us at a small fraction though. We will bear no legal costs in that case. If we have case of no fraud we need to form groups per product (i.e Boron, Philippines land, Concord village...) and sue as acivil case PG in a group. 1 lawyer can represent us as group (per product) and this will save us money.

Hope we receive feedback first on the SECRETARY to volunteer for our group. Now we have scattered thoughts and a lot of talking. If we have the proper organization we reach what we aim for...

 

[probono]

How to keep it secret ?

Guys I think any action you take against these people is a positive step but a caution.

Many Profitable Group employees have contracts as well (or could easily make one up) so your chances of keeping out the people you want to keep out are pretty much zero. In the meantime you will keep out the press and general public who have recently helped to spread the word. (i've had 4 emails from different people on the subject based on the press coverage).

 

[lioninvestor]

Probably better to use something like google groups rather than facebook as not everyone has a facebook account.

 

[duron852]

PP Victims group

Guys I think any action you take against these people is a positive step but a caution.

Many Profitable Group employees have contracts as well (or could easily make one up) so your chances of keeping out the people you want to keep out are pretty much zero. In the meantime you will keep out the press and general public who have recently helped to spread the word. (i've had 4 emails from different people on the subject based on the press coverage).

I was not able to attend the speakers coner. Myself is victim and heavily invested in PP product. How do I get in the loop of victims group?

 

[duron852]

PP victim

I agree with Anatolian,
Probono this forum stays live to bring more people our facebook group and act as a public awareness. In facebook we will be discussing our next actions. Some things are confidential and we cannot be discussing here. I am very much experienced -UNFORTUNATELY- with such cases. Have had similiar experience in the past and we proceeded in action against the company with the help of CAD.

When things will progress, CAD will disallow us discussing many things in open. For instance we should not refer to the CAD agent name or contact details over here. But in facebook all that can be disclosed.

Also it is not in our benefit some PG people know what is our next action. Plus there are many people here post without us verifying the accuracy of that or if they relate to our problem. Unfortuanately i am busy to volunteer for any role but i can provide guidance on the next steps. Group action is the second step; first is to get organized and act efficiently. For this i propose to all of us the following:
1. Someone needs to volunteer to open a private group for this in facebook. Anyone has knowledge AND time of doing so?
2. When done everybody has to open a simple Facebook account and connect to that group. Only people in that group can read the messages. If not facebook that can be also a yahoo group.. I need someone from this forum to volunteer on this task. The initial group of 12 had a fist type of organization. A secretary was appointed among them. Can this person come forward and take this role therefore? If not anyone to volunteer?
3. For joining the group (either facebook or yahoo one) the secretary to generate the group needs to receive by email scanned copies of your PG contracts that were no honoured. You can also fax or hand over personally if convenient. This will verify you and grant you access to the group.
4. Gradually more people will be joining the group and having the original scanned copies of their investment contracts we can assess how much is the overall claim.
5. People with contracts matured and not paid have the option to fill a police report with CAD. I would give PG a few more months time before filling a police report but everyone is free to act as he wants. When CAD receives many reports they will act. In the beginning the number of complaints is not so big plus other issues making CAD not to act the way we want to.
6. CAD will appoint an agent for all those cases when many people come forward and fill reports with them. We need to appoint a Leader/representative to communicate with the CAD agent and update the rest of us. In the beginning we can send to CAD a representation committee of some of us. But at the end 1 person is to be our contact point. This to be decided in a group meeting or after discussions in our Facebook group.
7. An ongoing task is to look for evidence against PG. I have a list of potential evidences. We can all share our findings in the Facebook group. Our work-our evidences may help CAD charge PG with fraud and then they will take all legal expenses to sue PG at court and our money will get back to us at a small fraction though. We will bear no legal costs in that case. If we have case of no fraud we need to form groups per product (i.e Boron, Philippines land, Concord village...) and sue as acivil case PG in a group. 1 lawyer can represent us as group (per product) and this will save us money.

Hope we receive feedback first on the SECRETARY to volunteer for our group. Now we have scattered thoughts and a lot of talking. If we have the proper organization we reach what we aim for...

Agree with your action plan. you experience in dealing with things like that? Have one question though, do you think PP is buying time to cash out its asset and declare bankrupt later? It does not have much left when going to liquidation then and its chiefs would be flying away from Singapore.

 

[GeorgeBoron]

Agree with your action plan. you experience in dealing with things like that? Have one question though, do you think PP is buying time to cash out its asset and declare bankrupt later? It does not have much left when going to liquidation then and its chiefs would be flying away from Singapore.

What is certain is that PG is buying time. PG does not have liquide assets is the other certain thing. Now if you mean to make the deal with philippines, get the money and run away i really doubt that. I see no signs of cashing out and going away. But we can always assign a small probability to this. As of now is a company trying to survive, deferring payments-many times with stupid excuses as many said...

 

[GeorgeBoron]

Probably better to use something like google groups rather than facebook as not everyone has a facebook account.

Any private group would be fine. I suggested Facebook or yahoo. Is try not many people have facebook but would be easy to create a yahoo account if not one yet and join the group. We still wait someone to step in and organize this...Any volunteer?

 

[sunzoner]

Any private group would be fine. I suggested Facebook or yahoo. Is try not many people have facebook but would be easy to create a yahoo account if not one yet and join the group. We still wait someone to step in and organize this...Any volunteer?

Hi. I am not an investor. But I fail to see the logic in shifting to a new private site.

regardless of facebook or googles or yahoo, the reach is smaller than here. People who dun have these accounts still have to start a new one. why not use this forum where you have a current reach?

Of cos you can always use the private message function here.

Your thoughts on preventing certain people from joining would not be fruitful unless you have a complete list of these people with their details (name, NRIC, email, contact numbers) which I suspect you dun...