Profitable Group - is it credible?

[GeorgeBoron]

Concord no of plots in the land

Keen, the figures you refer below are as of the moment PG bought the landin 2006. After that i believe the no of plots have been rearranged and the land has been divided in less than 9075 plots. I looked the land title and in a rough estimation there are less than 5,000plots in the Concord village PG land.

Can you please confirm my understanding that the 9075 figure is not the actual one right now but the historical one PG bought back in 2006?

George

Taylor Woodrow were the people who sold the land to Profitable Group for 3.1 Million in 2006. I think their shareholders would suspect some kind of scam if they bought it back for 3 times as much in 2011 with no change in prospects.

120 Acres = 580,800 Sq Yards
Each plot = 8 x 8 = 64 Sq Yards
9075 plots
Total cost was 342 UKP per plot.

UK agricultural land has increased in price since 2006 but greenbelt has not really. Also the the UKP has dropped against most asian currencies by about 30% since 2009.

I think you would be very lucky to see a 30% return on this investment. Anyone in the UK is going to check with the UK land registry for 5 UKP and see that last sale price. That will be the basis for any discussion and they would have to deal with multiple investors .

I would value it a 100 UKP per plot at this point.

I think you would be better to try and get money back through the Singapore Legal system. UK investors did get a refund when Profitable Plots were investigated there in 2007.
A UK FSA ruling decided that is was in the best interests of UK investors for Profitable Plots UK to reach a settlement with investors rather than have all their assets seized. Investors were offered a choice of a refund on Colchester or Nafferton or a transfer to Concorde Village !! This means they were giving refunds in the UK while they were selling the same plots to you.
They just moved the scam to Asia and used your money to pay off UK investors and keep them quiet.

See here for a few details on this
http://abskey.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/profitable-plots-where-have-they-disappeared-2/

 

[GeorgeBoron]

Limloca,

Do you have concord village plot? Interested in joining the tentative effort to sell ur land if a reasonable offers come up? If yes please let me know your email to keep u in the loop. You can also send me a private message with ur email if u do not wish to publish it here.

Thank you,

George

George

1. I understand Profitable Group (PG) mentioned that Taylor Woodrow were developing the land adjacent to Concorde, so they might be interested. Maybe you should speak to Hounslow Council to see what ideas they have and what assistance they can provide. Then pls share.

2. We could try selling the plots for 60% first. There is no need to start at 30%.

limloca

 

[probono]

9000 plots or not ?

Keen, the figures you refer below are as of the moment PG bought the land in 2006. After that i believe the no of plots have been rearranged and the land has been divided in less than 9075 plots. I looked the land title and in a rough estimation there are less than 5,000plots in the Concord village PG land.

Can you please confirm my understanding that the 9075 figure is not the actual one right now but the historical one PG bought back in 2006?
George

George.

When they bought the land it was one plot. How they cut it up was up to them. It may be they were selling different sized plots in the different packages. How big is your plot ?

Profitable Group have taken down their "concorde village" web site which made specific reference to plot size. Perhaps it was clear evidence of their miselling but referenced that basic plots were 64 Sq yds . Fortunately their salespeople have also stated this and the references are below.

The basic 5625/8000 UKP plot unit was 8 yard by 8 yards = 64 square yards = 576 Sq ft..

That goes into 120 acres 9075 times. All the documentation I have seen in the public domain refers to 8x8 plots. They were talking about only 50 acres being suitable for housing but they were selling the whole site as I understand it.

Here is a quote from a Profitable Group salesperson in Brunei 2008 talking about 9000 plots in 2008. This is lies so maybe the 9000 plots is as well !

http://bruneitimes.com.bn/local_business/2008/03/29/profitable_plots_sales_in_brunei_growing

He clarified that the plots of land being sold is not for migration or personal land development. Once all 9,000 plots have been sold worldwide, and the approval to develop it, the value of the plots will increase over 600 per cent. "Plots that are being sold at nearly £6,000, can rise in value to be more than £30,000," he said.

A profitable group salesperson from Canada also in 2008
in another item full of lies but taking about a 580 Sq foot plot (576 = 64 sq yards) for 8000 UKP

http://profitableukland.blogspot.com/

A plot is 580 square feet - the size of a good size garage. The intent is not to build on it. The second reason, we keep it small to avoid the Stamp Duty Tax that the plot price falls below. Remember, the size of the plot is just for investment purposes, we are not going to build on it, live on it or retire on it.

And the pricing per plot is confirmed here
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...Concorde Village attached to email 220307.pdf

And here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K43f-jvMG2o

 

[GeorgeBoron]

many thanks for this Probono.

 

[Rachelabc]

Good to have buyer..

If Taylor Woodrow is interest to buy, that will be very interesting progress for me. I will not sell. Reason is a simple one, they are the insider and expert of developing UK land, if they are interested, there must be of great advantage to them.

Why not check out the DLP, they might well be current of the status of our UK land planning permission??

Bedford Office
DLP Planning Ltd
4 Abbey Court, Fraser RoadPriory Business Park, Bedford MK44 3WHt 01234 832 740 f 01234 831 266bedford@dlpconsultants.co.uk

DLP Design Ltd
8 Goldington Road, BedfordMK40 3LGt 01234 261 266 f 01234 347 413bedford@dlpconsultants.co.uk

 

[probono]

Taylor Woodrow do not exist.

If Taylor Woodrow is interest to buy, that will be very interesting progress for me.

Rachel

The whole Taylor Woodrow thing is BS and always was.

When Taylor Woodrow unloaded the Hounslow land to Profitable Plots in 2006 they included a clause in the land sale contract. The clause gave Taylor Woodrow first option of right to buy in the event the land was sold . This is a standard clause in large business contracts. It meant Profitable Plots must check back with Taylor Woodrow and give Taylor Woodrow a chance to offer the same price as the highest bid before Profitable Group can sell to anyone else. There is no obligation or commitment for Taylor Woodrow to buy back from Profitable Plots. It is only for the protection of Taylor Woodrow.

Four years ago in 2007 Taylor Woodrow merged with Wimpey to become Taylor Wimpey.

Profitable Plots were using the fact that Taylor Woodrow had a clause in the sales contract as proof of Taylor Wimpeys interest in the land. This BS has been used to get people to buy the land since 2006. It is still as meaningless as it was then.

After being notified by people including me of the serious misuse of a very reputable brand Taylor Wimpey asked for all mentions of their company name to be removed from Profitable Group marketing, advertising and website. If you check the Profitable Group public site now all Taylor Woodrow references have been removed.

Taylor Wimpey have no current plan to buy the Concorde Village land back. If the land had any potential for planning they would not have sold it. They sold it because they are a business and Profitable Plots offered TW higher than market price for useless greenbelt land in their portfolio.

You don’t have to believe me. Check with Taylor Wimpey and check with Hounslow Council if you want the truth.

Don’t waste your time with DLP. DLP are the people who have been churning out meaningless plans, house layouts and site reports that were used by Profitable Group to convince investors to buy Concorde Village. Neil Osborn from DLP also sits on the Profitable Group board. Last year he made a statement that buyers in Asia didnt understand English and it was their fault.

http://www.hounslowchronicle.co.uk/...e-village-a-real-opportunity-109642-24443896/
Profitable's UK planning consultant, Neil Osborn,(DLP) said: "This is absolutely not a scam. I can assure you that the information fed to the Far East is completely correct. British planning law is extremely complicated and there is a risk that some things get lost in translation, but there is not a great deal that can be done about that, I'm afraid."

The idea that DLP will provide any kind of constructive or useful information in this matter is ridiculous.

I would write to Chelgate and ask them what they are going to do you help you. They are Profitable Groups PR company connected to the UK government and announced you would all get refunds if you want them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property...-footballers-leaves-investors-in-the-red.html
"Chelgate said [Profitable Group] would repay anybody who wanted to drop out of the scheme. Its spokesman added: “No investors in the Lower Feltham land (Concorde Village) have exercised their right to sell.”

Chelgate Limited
One Tanner Street
LONDON UK
SE1 3LE
t : +44 20 7939 7939
f : +44 20 7939 7938

 

[Liquigas]

1. Andy Nordmann said in 2007 that the SLPT(Strategic Land Planning Trust) has enough funds to see Concorde Village till Planning Permission.
Does Albert Yeo from Lim & Lim knows exactly how much left in the Trust??

2. Nigel Blanchard banged his chest and said, "I guarantee all AAA investors, that they will double their returns before X'mas" That was in 2008 at a reception held at the Wine Bar.
Seems like Nigel has resigned even before CAD closed them down. Wonder how much $$$$ he took with him??

3. You want to contact DLP Consultants? I am not sure if Profitable Group has paid any fees owed to them or even their Lawyers.
How about this - They closed their office in Jakarta, with rentals arrears not paid. This was revealed to me by a friend working in the same building as them.

There are just so many questionable practice by this poorly run Company, that it is no surprise that CAD may take longer for the investigation.

This is one lesson learned. When something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[GeorgeBoron]

Hello Ann-Piri,

Could you please remove this post from this public forum? Apart from the people interested in seeing that that is available to anyone in the WWW. CAD does not want to receive many calls and get disturbed.This won't allow them to do their job=> that delays our affairs.

Also the number you published is forwarding the calls after 6pm to Inspectors Mobile number. You will not make him that happy with that...

Thanks for the initiative though but most people involved, having logged a police report have been informed confidentially the contact details of the inspector in charge...

Hi Guys
...................................

 

[sunzoner]

Hello,

Could you please remove this post from this public forum? Apart from the people interested in seeing that that is available to anyone in the WWW. CAD does not want to receive many calls and get disturbed.This won't allow them to do their job=> that delays our affairs.

Also the number you published is forwarding the calls after 6pm to Inspectors Mobile number. You will not make him that happy with that...

Thanks for the initiative though but most people involved, having logged a police report have been informed confidentially the contact details of the inspector in charge...

And by quoting the post with the nunmber intact, you are repeating the error you asked ann-piri to rectify. I am assuming the telephone number and name is the offending items in ann-piri's post...

 

[probono]

SLPT

1. Andy Nordmann said in 2007 that the SLPT(Strategic Land Planning Trust) has enough funds to see Concorde Village till Planning Permission. Does Albert Yeo from Lim & Lim knows exactly how much left in the Trust??

Formally write and ask the trustees.
If it is a real trust the trustees should be required to provided regular updates on the current status of the trust / costs / funds etc to any beneficiary of the trust. Look at fees as well and see how much for example is being paid to "advisors" like DLP or Chelgate. As responsible trustees SLPT should be provding a report on any concerns related to action by the CAD and any potential shutdown of Profitable Group that might impact the trust. While the historically the trust structure has been abused by many companies normally for tax evaision or the benefit of the trustees, the trustees do generally have a legal liability to the beneficiaries. Take a look at the trust documentation carefully.

If it is not a real trust then there may be case for action against Profitable Group.

If you want your money back in these situations you go after everyone who might be able to help you get it.

 

[Commander Keen]

UK Solicitor claiming to help "The Profitable Group Singapore Scam" investors

I just saw this. I am not associated with this company in any way and honestly feel uncomfortable mentioning it. A lot of their web site seems have been taken from other sources. I know because i wrote one of the paragraphs !! Note also that they claim to offer "wealth management services" This is usually a clear sign of a company that wants to get your contact details and take your money !!

I show it here as another reference to the scam. Proceed with caution.

They only claim to help with land registration and land sale issues - not with recovering monies. Given the probable value of the land it may not be worth even paying their fees.

The Profitable Group Singapore Scam
http://www.pindorialaw.com/profitable-group-scam-land-investors.html
Pindoria Solicitors have received enquiries from investors about the Profitable Group. Many have become victims of the company’s failure. Many clients are alleging fraud against this company based in Singapore.

The Profitable Group has up to 4 land investment sites in the UK. All four sites have run into development problems causing concerns to be raised in Singapore about the viability of the program to buy UK green belt or protected land and convert its use for building purposes.

(c) As the plots of land have limited value and will not be granted planning permission, it may be possible for you to sell the land to a third party. Regrettably, you will have to sell the plots of land at a substantial discount to your purchase price.

 

[probono]

UK Journalist looking for information on Profitable Group

The UK journalist who wrote the UK Sunday Telegraph piece on Profitable Group earlier this year is looking to talk to Profitable Group investors for a follow up. He can be reached here.

David Hencke

Contact number: +44 7887 833931
Email Address: david.hencke@gmail.com
http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/cautionary-land-investment/

I dont know if it will help you get your money back but will help spread the word

 

[Commander Keen]

Court Case

Rachel was writing on the Profitable Group victims site about some court case that was due to happen last week.
Did it happen and was was the outcome ?
Is the Stanley Street Office still operating or has it gone now ?
And iassume that the Philippines deal that was due to close in every month since the beginning of time still hasnt closed :-D

It does all seem to have gone very quiet. Perhaps they are all busy investing your money in the football fund which seems to have some of the same people involved and i would stay well away from if you are offered. Bryan Robson, Steve McMahon are advisors apparently and the same no details contact pages on the websites.

 

[satayxp]

saw a big ad over the wkend by waltons.. is another land banking thingy?

gahmen no regulate this kind of investments one ah?

 

[probono]

Canadian v UK Land

Walton seem to be trying to differentiate themselves from the UK scams by claiming their Canadian heritage and using the "women are smart to invest with Walton" message.

There is a nice comparison of the UK and Canadian Land Banking schemes here. Canadian plots seems to be better than UK land plots in the same way that being bitten by a pack of Hyenas is better than being bitten by a pack of Tigers.

The issue with UK Land Banking plots sold in Asia is while they may appear to be in prime locations they are always protected or greenbelt land that cannot be developed . None of the schemes can be converted and once everyone realises that the land banking company shuts down and starts selling elsewhere with the land plot investors losing all of their money.

The issue with Canadian land is there is so much land and so few people. Any attempt to charge a premium to a developer for a plot of Canadian land means that the developer just goes somewhere else. The land plot investor pays a huge premium for the land when they buy it so you can not make any money.

The idea that valuable foreign land is offered at shopping malls and rented 4 star hotel function rooms in Asia should be considered laughable.

If the land was valuable it would already have been sold in the country of origin to local developers, and those connected with the planning and building organisatons.

 

[satayxp]

Walton seem to be trying to differentiate themselves from the UK scams by claiming their Canadian heritage and using the "women are smart to invest with Walton" message.

There is a nice comparison of the UK and Canadian Land Banking schemes here. Canadian plots seems to be better than UK land plots in the same way that being bitten by a pack of Hyenas is better than being bitten by a pack of Tigers.

The issue with UK Land Banking plots sold in Asia is while they may appear to be in prime locations they are always protected or greenbelt land that cannot be developed . None of the schemes can be converted and once everyone realises that the land banking company shuts down and starts selling elsewhere with the land plot investors losing all of their money.

The issue with Canadian land is there is so much land and so few people. Any attempt to charge a premium to a developer for a plot of Canadian land means that the developer just goes somewhere else. The land plot investor pays a huge premium for the land when they buy it so you can not make any money.

The idea that valuable foreign land is offered at shopping malls and rented 4 star hotel function rooms in Asia should be considered laughable.

If the land was valuable it would already have been sold in the country of origin to local developers, and those connected with the planning and building organisatons.

such ads shld be prohibited.. the "woman" is nameless and faceless.. the company no registration number, does MAS requires them to be licensed?? if so where's the license number..

bcos really nowadays public interest appears to be compromised at the expense of turning SG into some "financial" hub

even this profitable grp thing, wat exactly r the authorities doing abt it??

 

[sunzoner]

such ads shld be prohibited.. the "woman" is nameless and faceless.. the company no registration number, does MAS requires them to be licensed?? if so where's the license number..

bcos really nowadays public interest appears to be compromised at the expense of turning SG into some "financial" hub

even this profitable grp thing, wat exactly r the authorities doing abt it??

iirc MAS do not regulate land banking firm as they sell "products" rather than offer "investment services".

 

[hengzzz]

FOR YOUR INFORMATION.

gahmen no regulate this kind of investments one ah?

As refer below,the wine investment scheme and other schemes include investing in plots of land overseas for long-term returns do not fall under any ministry’s watch at the moment and do not fall under the ambit of the MLM Act.
I think this includes Gold investment scheme as well.

In short, the MLM act will address those “grey areas” and can extend to investment schemes sold via MLM and clearly draw the line between consumable products and investments.

SINGAPORE - A salesman approaches you to invest in wine, promising annual returns of 20 to 30 per cent. The investment may cost tens of thousands of dollars but you may never see the wine, which the salesman says is stored in an Australian warehouse.

Would you risk a huge chunk of your savings on this?

Some people have, only to regret it.

It may or may not be a scam, but there’s no way to check, no authority to verify,” said Mr Seah Seng Choon, executive director of the Consumers Association of Singapore (Case)

To address “grey areas” in the law that may not protect such consumers, Case and the Direct Selling Association of Singapore (DSAS) announced yesterday that they would work together for the next three to six months to propose changes to a trade act, the Multi-level Marketing and Pyramid Selling (Excluded Schemes and Arrangements) Amendment Order 2001 (MLM Act).

The wine investment scheme, for example, does not fall under any ministry’s watch at the moment, said Mr Seah. Other schemes include investing in plots of land overseas for long-term returns.

One MLM company currently under investigation by the Commercial Affairs Department is Sunshine Empire, whose participants cried foul when their rebates were discontinued by the company earlier this year. Police said the case is still under investigation.

Mr Seah hopes the Act can extend to investment schemes sold via MLM, and clearly draw the line between consumable products and investments.

source:
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/379974/1/.html

In the wake of the prosecution of MLM company Sunshine Empire, which was investigated for running an alleged Ponzi-like scheme, officials of the Direct Selling Association and the Consumers Association of Singapore (Case) have proposed amendments to the legislation.

'There is a thin line between MLM on one hand and pyramid selling on the other,' said Mr Seah.'Sometimes it is not clear whether the business being conducted is an investment, or an activity that comes under the definition of MLM or pyramid selling. 'We want the authorities to address the issue of businesses masquerading as MLM companies when in effect they are engaged in selling investment products.'

Source:
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/My+...And+Savings/Story/A1Story20090406-133576.html

MLM act to be reviewed
Fri, Oct 03, 2008
my paper

MLM is a business model where a company's products are sold directly to consumers through independent participants who pay an upfront fee.

Mr Seah Seng Choon, executive director of Case, told my paper: 'Over the
last three to five years, we have seen more MLM schemes with investment structures and claims of very high returns of 20 to 30 per cent. This is a concern.'

As a result, new investment structures in MLM schemes like wine investments are not sufficiently addressed.

They are not regulated by the Monetary Authority of Singapore and .

He hopes the review can address such grey areas.

source:
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/SME+Central/Story/A1Story20081003-91330.html

 

[probono]

Consumer Protection - about time

It may or may not be a scam, but there’s no way to check, no authority to verify,” said Mr Seah Seng Choon, executive director of the Consumers Association of Singapore (Case)

The assumption should be that if there is no way to check then it is a scam. Also typically on these schemes even if the "product" does exist it is hugely overpriced.

In the wake of the prosecution of MLM company Sunshine Empire, which was investigated for running an alleged Ponzi-like scheme, officials of the Direct Selling Association and the Consumers Association of Singapore (Case) have proposed amendments to the legislation.

Long overdue but a good idea. Most experienced people can spot a scam company very quickly - high returns, non specific products, lots of quotes and references to similar but unrelated activities - but no real data. It is just a matter of focusing on these companies and making them feel real pain.

Profitable Group starting saying they were a product company in early 2010 the reality was for the previous 5 years they were marketting themselves as a global investment company. There are plenty of dcouoments on the web and my PC to prove this.

After time share and land banking the lastest scam investment would appear to be "football funds". There are several companies offering these at the moment. Almost all of them look like scams. They offer no real product just claim investment opportunities around a glamourous product and mention some big football clubs. They seem to have acquired the Profitable Group contact list from somewhere so be careful if you are offered such a sucker investment by anyone including financial advisors.

 

[lioninvestor]

The assumption should be that if there is no way to check then it is a scam. Also typ[ically on these schemes even if the "prodcut" does exist it is hugely overpriced.



Long overdue but a good idea.

Err. This was actually published in April 2009.

http://www.asiaone.com/Business/My+...And+Savings/Story/A1Story20090406-133576.html